Defending Universal Reconciliation

[praise_yeshua]

Thats the point, you havent proved it. Prove that God loved and hated the same sinner. Your words are in direct opposition to Gods stated word

We all know you're an ungodly sinner. You prove it when you sin. Are you absent sin?

You're the one insisting that YOU are a special class of sinner. You're the one that hasn't established that YOU are a special class of sinner.

Sinners are self evident. You can recognize sinners from their sin.

 

[brightfame52]

Some of them are.

Some of them will be in the future.

So what about these sinners, are they in Christ ? Ps 5;5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

 

[civic]

So what about these sinners, are they in Christ ? Ps 5;5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

So you have no need of a savior for your sins. Good to know

 

[brightfame52]

God IS love.

His tender mercies are over ALL he has made.

Yes, God loves all sinners.

This is why he weeps over their demise.

You don't cry over someone you hate, brightfame52, that makes no sense.

But if you will not hear it, My soul will weep in secret for your pride;
My eyes will weep bitterly And run down with tears, (Jer. 13:17 NKJ)

Does the God of Love Love these ? Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Does He Love Esau ? Rom 9:13
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[brightfame52]

So you have no need of a savior for your sins. Good to know

So what about these sinners, are they in Christ ? Ps 5;5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

 

[brightfame52]

@dizerner

God loves the world IN CHRIST.

I agree with that since I read in Rom 8:39

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The love of God here has the definite article in the greek
8:39 οὔτε ὕψωμα οὔτε βάθος οὔτε τις κτίσις ἑτέρα δυνήσεται ἡμᾶς χωρίσαι ἀπὸ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν

Thats indicates the Love of God is particular in Christ Jesus, not outside of Christ Jesus,

So the Love of God in John 3:16 , that world would be a world of people in Christ Jesus. Now is all humanity in Christ Jesus ? Yes or No

 

[Diserner]

So the Love of God in John 3:16 , that world would be a world of people in Christ Jesus. Now is all humanity in Christ Jesus ? Yes or No

Jesus Christ stood in the place of Adam, there is a complete unity of both. If Christ did not in fact provide universal atonement, Christ would not be made as the comparison or stand-in for Adam, as it would in fact only be a part of Adam. Adam has a unity, he comes as a whole, he is the federal head. This is why Jesus buys the whole field only to get the treasure inside it, and why as in Adam all die, so only in Christ can any be made alive.

But please take a look at this passage with me that disproves Eternal Justification:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (Eph. 2:11-13 NKJ)

Now the phrase I want you to really hone in on is this one: "at that time you were without Christ." Under Eternal Justification, it is a logically impossibility for any elect to be at any time "without Christ." For clearly we can pull up a hundred passages that tell us that only in Christ are we justified, forgiven, chosen, etc. Yet, these who have been brought near were without God and outside the covenant.

 

[Studyman]

I'm going to take the position of Universal Reconciliation as if it were my own.

1. The chief of sinners has been saved...

1Ti 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

God's target is that all men will be saved.

But if a man accepts these words of Paul as "Truth", shall we not also accept his other Word's equally as Truth?

Rom. 11: 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

2. God will have all men saved.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Notice verse #6 and the appeal to a future date wherein the testimony of the work of Christ will be fulfilled as referenced with "due time".

3. A guarantee of a future change.

If man still sins after redemption (he does) and it will take an direct action of God in the future to change fallen men, (which it does).... They why should there be any exclusion to this process?

I look forward to your responses.

The Jesus of the Bible tells me about those religious men of His Time who Transgressed God's commandments by their own traditions;

Luke 13: 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

This is speaking of the future, when the Christ comes back and raises men from the dead and speaks to them face to face, Yes?

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Universalism is a popular religious philosophy to be sure, and a very seductive marketing strategy for this world's religions. But I think, based on what the Holy Scriptures teach, a man should take heed of it.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus Christ stood in the place of Adam, there is a complete unity of both. If Christ did not in fact provide universal atonement, Christ would not be made as the comparison or stand-in for Adam, as it would in fact only be a part of Adam. Adam has a unity, he comes as a whole, he is the federal head. This is why Jesus buys the whole field only to get the treasure inside it, and why as in Adam all die, so only in Christ can any be made alive.

But please take a look at this passage with me that disproves Eternal Justification:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (Eph. 2:11-13 NKJ)

Now the phrase I want you to really hone in on is this one: "at that time you were without Christ." Under Eternal Justification, it is a logically impossibility for any elect to be at any time "without Christ." For clearly we can pull up a hundred passages that tell us that only in Christ are we justified, forgiven, chosen, etc. Yet, these who have been brought near were without God and outside the covenant.

So the Love of God in John 3:16 , that world would be a world of people in Christ Jesus. Now is all humanity in Christ Jesus ? Yes or No

 

[Diserner]

So the Love of God in John 3:16 , that world would be a world of people in Christ Jesus. Now is all humanity in Christ Jesus ? Yes or No

Christ has taken the place of all humans and thus provided potential future union with them.

However faith makes actual to each person what was accomplished in Christ.

 

[civic]

Christ has taken the place of all humans and thus provided potential future union with them.

However faith makes actual to each person what was accomplished in Christ.

Amen it’s by faith we are in union with Christ. Salvation is available to all that will place their faith in Him. His atonement is universal in scope for everyone and becomes applied to those who place their faith in Him.

hilastērion – the atonement is received by Faith.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV

Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV

The Atonement is received by faith. The offering of the Atonement for sin cannot be obtained apart from faith. The atonement for sin has been made and it cannot be applied to mankind apart from faith. Jesus has made an atonement for sin but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon from sin, no remission of sin unless is accepted or received by faith.

 

[civic]

We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.

Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin perse that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God
Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.

John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Heb 4:6- unbelief

 

[brightfame52]

Christ has taken the place of all humans and thus provided potential future union with them.

However faith makes actual to each person what was accomplished in Christ.

Was all humanity loved in Christ in Jn 3:16 Yes or No

 

[Diserner]

Was all humanity loved in Christ in Jn 3:16 Yes or No

YES.

But sin has collateral damage.

 

[brightfame52]

The universalist are caught in a contradiction, which proves the doctrine is not of God.

It is certain that God loved His Own even while they were dead in trespasses and sins, working iniquity, Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

However its also plain as day that God hated some sinners, working iniquity Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity

Now the lies of universalism denies this distinction in active sinners.

 

[Diserner]

However its also plain as day that God hated some sinners, working iniquity Ps 5:5\

It is the nature of God to hate ALL sin.

It is his holiness.

 

[Rockson]

However its also plain as day that God hated some sinners, working iniquity Ps 5:5

It is funny though when one could point out to your something else plain as day, like when Jesus said, "God so loved the world" John 3 that you would claim that's not plain as day. Or like when 2 Pt 3:9 states God is not willing that any should perish" that's not plain as day. But let's deal with your verse,

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity

First God is LOVE and has no hate in him. (that is towards beings themselves) although he hates what they might do. But that's not hating them. This might help....if one said they hate Shakespeare does that mean they hate Shakespeare? No. You'd take that to mean what he put out as literature you didn't like. ;You may even hate it but that doesn't mean you hate them.

 

[brightfame52]

It is the nature of God to hate ALL sin.

It is his holiness.

Ps 5:5 is talking about the worker of iniquity, thats the person doing the iniquity. Thats His Holiness

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

See how you are crafty in the change of the word of God because it doesnt agree with your falsehood.

 

[Diserner]

See how you are crafty in the change of the word of God because it doesnt agree with your falsehood.

Tell me what I changed.

Or repent of bearing false witness!

ALL INIQUITY!

 

[brightfame52]

It is funny though when one could point out to your something else plain as day, like when Jesus said, "God so loved the world" John 3 that you would claim that's not plain as day. Or like when 2 Pt 3:9 states God is not willing that any should perish" that's not plain as day. But let's deal with your verse,

First God is LOVE and has no hate in him. (that is towards beings themselves) although he hates what they might do. But that's not hating them. This might help....if one said they hate Shakespeare does that mean they hate Shakespeare? No. You'd take that to mean what he put out as literature you didn't like. ;You may even hate it but that doesn't mean you hate them.

God hates the worker of iniquity. Ps 5:5