Conservative America's False doctrine (1800's dispensationalism) Support of Israel
- Thread starter Titus
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civic
Active Member
I have provided plenty of scriptures that affirm their land extends until a 1,000 years after Jesus still future 2nd Coming.
Titus
Active Member
Their land?
You dont pay attention to what God has said.
God makes it clear no one gets land unconditionally. Yet you contradict Gods word and say these hardened hearts of unbelievers are still promised an old covenant that they broke.
No way.
That land over in the middle east was taken away from Jews.
God allowed it.
Then those who bought into the dispensationalist doctrine in America helped "jews" reclaim what is supposedly theirs.
So, when you look at prophecy through dispensationalist glasses you imagine these things to be in the word of God.
But when you take them off and just read what God and His apostles said.
You can see no land was ever promised to anyone on earth when Jesus returns.
God is not concerned with the earth when He returns.
Not one "jew" today can give any evidence of what tribe they are from.
God did that intentionally.
So how can it be possible for them to repent and become a believing "jew" when Christ returns?
civic
Active Member
Yes way read up as below validates everything I’ve said and posted in this thread
Ezekiel's Dry Bones Prophecy about Israel Coming Back to Life
Our ministry, ONE FOR ISRAEL, is a movement of Jewish and Arab Israeli followers of Jesus with a commission to reach their country and the nations with the Gospel. We see our call to equip believers in Israel and around the world with the tools of ministry through our media outreach, and to...
www.oneforisrael.org
Titus
Active Member
Heres an excerpt of your supposed proof link.Yes way read up as below validates everything I’ve said and posted in this thread
Ezekiel's Dry Bones Prophecy about Israel Coming Back to Life
Our ministry, ONE FOR ISRAEL, is a movement of Jewish and Arab Israeli followers of Jesus with a commission to reach their country and the nations with the Gospel. We see our call to equip believers in Israel and around the world with the tools of ministry through our media outreach, and to...
"Just as Ezekial was told by God to command breath to come from the four winds to breath life back into the ressurected physical bodies of Israel, so the gospel has come from all corners of the earth, back to the place of its origin. The nations have had a part to play in restoring Israel both physically and spiritually and as God promises, the nations will also be greatly blessed by Israel's eventual restoration which is to come. As Paul writes in Romans 11:11,
" Now if their trespass means riches for the world and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles how much more will their full inclusion mean "
Again even your supposed proof is taking scripture out of context to fit your dispensational theology.
Paul is speaking of Israel in his time.
We know this because the context shows Paul speaking of himself not of to a future generation.
You must assume this as it's not in the passage.
Romans 11:1,5
- even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace
Paul makes it clear that he is speaking about jews in the present not future.
- to provoke them to jealousy
The jealously is happening as gentiles believe
Aimed at Jews who are currently alive during Paul's life
Paul expects Jews now to see gentile faith and be drawn to Christ not in the future.
A prophecy that waits in the future cannot provoke jealousy in the audience Paul is addressing!!!!
Romans 11:11-14,
- if by means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh and might save some of them
Paul says some of them.
Paul is not treaching...
A nation wide conversion.
A future geo political restoration.
He is speaking of ongoing jewish conversions one by one, individuals.
Nowhere does Paul teach in Romans 11 a prophetic time table for modern Israel.
This theology is based upon assumption not strictly from the verses that are given as proof texts.
civic
Active Member
nope as there was presently during Pauls day a hardening that was in place with them that would last until the time when the fullness of the gentiles would be fulfilled IN THE FUTURE. We are still in that time today. So during the Great Tribulation which is the time of Jacobs trouble they as a nation will turn to their Messiah- they will look upon Him whom they have pierced. That day is FUTURE. That will occur at Christs 2nd Coming when all; the nations are gathered against Israel in the greatest battle in history- Armageddon. Still FUTURE.
See Romans 11:25-29 regarding Israel.
hope this helps !!!
Do you even know what God's covenant with Abraham was? That covenant is presented in Genesis 12:1-3. First, the Abrahamic Covenant and the Old Covenant are two different covenants. Second, neither of those two covenants offer salvation. If they had, there would have been no need for the New Covenant. You only need to go to the Book of Hebrews to see that.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You do err and do not understand the Word of God.
God never commanded His people Israel to love "everybody." This is your first error. The command to love is given to the twelve tribes whom God situated around the Tabernacle at the time of Moses in the desert.
The original command:
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:17–18.
God gave out lots (of land) that surrounded the Tabernacle. Three tribes to the north, three tribes to the west, three tribes to the south, and three tribes to the west. Now that you know how God placed the twelve tribes of Israel around His Tabernacle now you can read and understand the original context and command God gives to His covenant people. We are NOT as Christians commanded to love "everybody" for not even God loves "everybody.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:15–16.
To love those and that which God hates is to be treasonous against God. God says, "love not the world" meaning people unsaved and part of the world and the world's system. If you love "everybody" the love of the Father is not in you but is of the world for the world love their own, and hate those that are of Christ. And in case you missed it here it is again, the original command on love:
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother (member of the same tribe) in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour (member of another tribe living adjacent to you), and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people (member of any tribe), but thou shalt love thy neighbour (member of another tribe living adjacent to you) as thyself: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:17–18.
The original command on love is given to the children of Israel in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle, and God is saying, love your fellow brethren and neighbor in Christ. In other words, Israel is to love Israel ONLY.
We are never commanded to love unbelievers because unbelievers have the enemy as their father. Whose father belong to you? The Fatherhood of God, or the fatherhood of His enemy? But the false theology in the world is exactly what you said, that believers are to love everybody, which is false. Do you love those who hate God? Because if you do you are no brother of mine because clearly we do not share the same Father, but is the spirit of antichrist that is in the world.
God gave command to His people to love only their brethren in Christ. We are never commanded to love those not our fellow brethren in Christ. To love and give aid to God's enemy is treason to God who bought you with a price. Not even God gives that which is holy (His love) to dogs, nor does He cast His pearls to swine (unholy, unsanctified people.) You are holding to a false theology that is NOT of God but is of the enemy. You need to bring your belief's in line with Scripture and reform your theology. It is NOT of God.
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
Where on the green earth did this response come from civic .
You had no doctrine .
So emotions got the job done . This my friend is a very sad day .
And its not me forgetting i was once an enemy . That is why i have come against
this lie of anti christ so many now are heading right into .
I SURE dont see it telling the unbelieving jews , the false religoins ONE WORD about having to repent to beleive on JESUS .
Its saying the grand lie of all
and doing so under the banner , OH THIS is the way to attain peace n safety .
Remember when i said intefaith is of anti christ and that we need to get the heck out of those
churches , that nar realm , yes the RCC too . PEOPLE should have listened .
It aint me allowing sin upon the u nbeleiver and allowing them to remain in unbelief .
ITS the so called beloved unity finding common ground interreligious lets have us some peace safety
THAT DOES that . You may do as you will dear sir .
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
Such a sad day this is my friends .
But remember it was not I who did not warn and remind us all .
Its this harlots doctrine of lets find us some common ground that did that .
But remember it was not I who did not warn and remind us all .
Its this harlots doctrine of lets find us some common ground that did that .
civic
Active Member
God so loved the world ( that hated Him ) and gave His only begotten Son ( they hated Him without a cause ) that whosoever ( any unbeliever ) believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 and parenthesis added for emphasis/meaning.
I will quote you hence my response.
Here is what so said
" Of course there is a physical israel .
There is even a physical jersualem .
And perhaps soon enough even a physical all inclusive temple .
but ask yourself , HOW CHRIST LOVING IS THIS .
I see nothing but rejection of CHRIST and a merger of all religoins .
ITS a set up my friend . its all a snare .
The earthern nations , as well as earthen israel and jerusalem ,
THEY ALL STILL in bondage .
but not THE ONE that is above , mot her to all who do believe IN CHRIST JESUS .
but if we claim to believe we better all make sure WE DO BELEIVE .
because we cant cliam to beleive and yet in any way preach a love of UNBELIEF . which is
NOT the LOVE GOD . NO The LOVE of GOD POINTS ONLY TO JESUS .
The love of GOD does not offer up a lie and make that lie seem as though its love
and create such a broad path . We are being lied to civic .
And g uess what , both leaders of t his people , right and left
RCC and protestant , along with Key imam leaders , key jewish leaders and all key leaders
of all religons are all in on it and merge their peoples only more and more to be as one
under what they all beleive is love . Love and of GOD . ONLY it aint . "
to which I responded with the following :
You forget you were once an enemy of Christ just like them as per Paul in Ephesians 2:1-4
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
conclusion: Like Jesus and the Apostles did if you love the lost then tell them about the gospel and pray for their salvation, not their condemnation.
hope this helps !!!
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
and since when do i not point to Christ .
its not me sitting in these in terfaith ecumenical churches . THEY are decieving us all .
I do not forget i was once the enemy . I point them to the one true savoir
not the lie of interfaith . Its not me giving out any kind of false hope
and trying to join hands with a covenant that many beleive will usher in peace .
ITS the ecumenical interfaithers who have done such . Thus correction IS NEEDED . e
civic
Active Member
And here is an FYI for the readers on the forum.
I have never in the past nor the present or future support the ecumenical movement with religious beliefs. There has always been since the time of Christ and will always be one way, the narrow road that leads to life and few that find it- through Christ alone and His finished work via the gospel message.
I'm all about making disciples and fulfilling the great commissions. Thats been my passion since I was saved in 1980.
And Gods not done with the Jews yet, He still has plans for Israel that are yet to be fulfilled as per Paul in Romans 11 and the book of Revelation, several OT passages in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah and others.
hope this helps !!!
I have never in the past nor the present or future support the ecumenical movement with religious beliefs. There has always been since the time of Christ and will always be one way, the narrow road that leads to life and few that find it- through Christ alone and His finished work via the gospel message.
I'm all about making disciples and fulfilling the great commissions. Thats been my passion since I was saved in 1980.
And Gods not done with the Jews yet, He still has plans for Israel that are yet to be fulfilled as per Paul in Romans 11 and the book of Revelation, several OT passages in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah and others.
hope this helps !!!
To the trenches civic
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
That is why i am doing all to warn also against this ecumenical interfaith interreligious dialogue .
THEY aint saying that , THEY are lying to the false religions as well as the jews .
And people stuck under the nar realm , rcc , and etc are all headed right into this.
civic
Active Member
I'm well aware of all of the chess pieces being aligned to bring about the one world system in the end before Christs return. We are that generation in the end. And there will be/is great deception which is what Jesus warned will happen if it were possible even the elect would be deceived.
Titus
Active Member
Romans chapter 11 is not about the future. Paul is speaking of jews being brought to Christ because of the jealously stirred up in them seeing gentiles turning to God.
You must ignore plain passages in the context to not see this.
There are no "jews" today in Israel being being provoked to jealousy because of gentiles turning to Christ!!!
That situation was only occurring then. As proof some jews at that time became Christians because of what was taking place then.
How is Paul going to provoke these Jews today when he is dead?
You do not read scripture carefully.
Paul in Romans 11 is discussing his current missionary strategy.
Notice Paul is speaking in the present.
Romans 11:11;13-14,
- for misspeak to you gentiles... if by any means I may provoke you to emulation(jealousy) them which are my flesh(jewish) and might save some of them(present Jews not way off in the future when Paul is dead and gone)
Present tense: - I may provoke
Real expectation: - save some of them
Not hypothetical or future- nations but individuals
Paul is cleary speaking of his current missionary strategy not an end times event.
You have to be told that to think that is in the text. You must already believe this is an end time event before you read these passages because if you just read the context, nothing is said about the second coming of Christ bringing a nation of unbelievers to belief in Christ then salvation for them.
It's all made up theology from men like Darby in the 1800's.
Made up theology. Fables of men.
Any people on earth can be saved at any time if the except the truth of the gospel.
Paul frames these passages Civic as a current mystery not a future timetable.
Romans 11:25,
- for I would not brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery
Do you not know that Paul said this mystery is NOW(present in Paul's ministry) a reality?
Why Paul is this mystery revealed present now in your ministry? So that the gentiles do not become arrogant.
It's for them at that time!!!
In Paul's letters a mystery is:
Something once hidden
Now revealed and operating, Romans 16:25-26;Ephesians 3:3-6
Paul is explaining a present reality so that the gentiles do not become arrogant.
Romans 16:25-26,
- now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
- but NOW(PRESENT) made manifest and by the prophetic scriptures MADE KNOWN TO ALL NATIONS ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT OF THE EVERLASTING GOD, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH
Ephesians 3:3-6,
- how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery as wrote afore in few words
- by which when you read you can understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ
- which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men as it has NOW BEEN REVEALED BY THE SPIRIT TO HIS HOLY APOSTLES
Note: it was not only Paul who recieved the mystery but all the holy apostles chosen by Jesus.
- that the gentiles should be fellow heirs and fellow members of the same body(Lords church) and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel
Proof positive this revelation from God is presently being preached by Paul.
No scripture says this is for modern Jews when Christ returns. It's already been revealed!!!
Blindness of Israel is already happened to Israel when Paul is teaching in Romans 11.
Not will happen like Civic interprets Paul writings.
Not will be lifted later(their blindness)
This partial hardening of jews is what Paul has been describing since Romans 9-11.
Not first Israel is hardened then future Israel converts
So Romans 11:26,27
- and so all Israel will be saved, as it is written the deliverer will come out of Zion and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob
- and this is My covenant when I take away their sins
This is critical that you learn this!!!!!
Paul already defined the meaning of Israel in Romans 9:6, Romans 11:5
- they are not all Israel which are of Israel
- AT THIS PRESENT TIME there is a remnant according to the election of grace
So when Paul says... Romans 11:26,
- and so all Israel shall be saved...
He means, and so= in this manner not Civic's misinterpretation of "and then later/future"
All Israel = the total people of God(believing jews+ believing gentiles) brought in by this ongoing process.
If you dont already know.
Paul is quoting from Isaiah 59 and 27 in Romans 11:26-27.
Isaiah context:
Deliverer has come(past not future)) to Zion.
Covenant of forgiveness is now active.
Paul applies these texts already not future to Christ's redemptive work read Romans 3:21-26.
Nothing in the citation from Paul in Romans 11:21-26 demands a future national conversion as Civic demands.
It's only assumption that is what Paul is teaching.
Now you must continue to read from Romans 11:21-26 to 28-29!!!
Verses 28-29 explain the present covenant tension not future reversal of jewish rebellion.
28,29
- as concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes but as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers sakes
This describes current hostility to the gospel
Ongoing election of a remnant(Jews who believe now not future)
Verse 29,
- for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance
Meaning,
God has not abandoned His purpose
He is still saving jews by the same gospel
Nowhere in Romans does Paul teach salvation apart from faith or at a later time in the future.
Paul is warning them at that time.
Romans 11:20,25
- he not high minded
- lest ye should be wise in your own conceits
This warning only makes sense if...
This process is currently happening!!!
Jews are still being saved
Gentiles can still be cut off
Conclusion:
Romans 11:25-29 describes a PRESENT ongoing redemptive pattern in Paul's DAY and throughout the gospel age.
Not a future mass conversion of ethnic Israel.
Present:
Partial Jewish harding
Gentile ingathering
Jewish jeoulsy
Remnant salvation
What is not taught:
A future national repentance
A prophetic clock for modern Israel
Salvation apart from faith in Christ
civic
Active Member
The hardening is past, present in Paul’s day and future in our day. They will look upon Him whom they have pierced and come Him as their Messiah as prophecied by Zachariah 12 and John in Revelation at His 2nd Coming.
hope this helps !!!
Titus
Active Member
You claim its future in Romans 11.
I've shown Paul is speaking in the present.
Once refuted all you are doing is ignoring where you are being shown you have not rightly divided the scriptures by going to another claim.
When a doctrine has exposed errors then logically it follows that other passages used as proof texts will be in error as well.
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