"Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord” (Romans 10:9–13)

@jeremiah1five

As the Scripture records in Saul's letter to Rome. He is writing to a people ALREADY saved.
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I actually agree with this statement, except the writer is an Apostle name Paul not saul Rom 1:1-8

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
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He is writing them he heard of their Faith, so what he is writing including Rom 9-11 is to people with Faith rather jew or gentile Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you[people of faith] that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
 
brightfame52 said:
False the elect are in Christ by election union before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
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Nope keep reading 11-13.

In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

And Paul here

Romans 16:7: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me"
 
@dwight92070

Amen! And the word "elect" and "chosen" are the same Greek word - so Jesus is the Chosen One or the Elect One, and all of us are chosen or elect in Him, because we put our faith in Him.
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False, Jesus as Gods elect, had a seed chosen in Him which made them elect also, Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Both Jesus and His Seed were chosen together before the foundation of the world

Peter alludes to their joint heirship in election, He writes Jesus is elect 1 Pet 2:4,9

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The word generation is also offspring or seed, theyre Christs seed/offspring, Both elect
 
civic said:
Nope keep reading 11-13.

In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

And Paul here

Romans 16:7: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me"
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Yes they are in Christ by election. Thats the whole elect seed.

Rom 16 7 is about elect individuals who were converted to Christ b4 Paul was, but from the eternal perspective, all the elect are in Christ together before the foundation

Just like with Adam, all his children were in him in seed form at the beginning of the world, but his son abel was born, manifested as his son b4 seth was, yet they both were in Adam in the beginning
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes they are in Christ by election. Thats the whole elect seed.

Rom 16 7 is about elect individuals who were converted to Christ b4 Paul was, but from the eternal perspective, all the elect are in Christ together before the foundation

Just like with Adam, all his children were in him in seed form at the beginning of the world, but his son abel was born, manifested as his son b4 seth was, yet they both were in Adam in the beginning
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no one is IN CHRIST until they believe as Paul said in several places which I quoted.

next fallacy
 
brightfame52 said:
You just cant see it
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projecting

Paul said there were 2 people who were IN CHRIST before he was in Christ- they were saved before Paul was saved.

conclusion: no one is IN CHRIST until they believe.

if what you believe was true then Paul would be a liar since he never said he was in Christ before he believed and before the world was created.

If as you falsely believe all the elect were in Christ before creation at the same time then once again Paul would be a liar saying they were IN CHRIST before he was.

next fallacy
 
civic said:
projecting

Paul said there were 2 people who were IN CHRIST before he was in Christ- they were saved before Paul was saved.

conclusion: no one is IN CHRIST until they believe.

if what you believe was true then Paul would be a liar since he never said he was in Christ before he believed and before the world was created.

If as you falsely believe all the elect were in Christ before creation at the same time then once again Paul would be a liar saying they were IN CHRIST before he was.

next fallacy
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No you cant see it
 
brightfame52 said:
No you cant see it
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that would be you since I gave you several passages from Paul saying he and others were not in Christ until after they believed the gospel.

how can I be in disneyland until I go there, purchase my ticket and walk into the park ?

you would have everyone believe you were in disneyland when you were at your home- thats a lie just like being in Christ before you believe the gospel is a lie.
 
civic said:
that would be you since I gave you several passages from Paul saying he and others were not in Christ until after they believed the gospel.

how can I be in disneyland until I go there, purchase my ticket and walk into the park ?

you would have everyone believe you were in disneyland when you were at your home- thats a lie just like being in Christ before you believe the gospel is a lie.
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you cant see it, i even took the time to explain it to you
 
brightfame52 said:
@jeremiah1five



I actually agree with this statement, except the writer is an Apostle name Paul not saul Rom 1:1-8



He is writing them he heard of their Faith, so what he is writing including Rom 9-11 is to people with Faith rather jew or gentile Rom 1:15-16

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you[people of faith] that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
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There is significance Saul said "Greek" and not Gentile. He is referring to Hellenized Jews who after 15-21 generations after the remnants' return remained in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture. They were a people "[who] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" Eph 2:12.

But they were still as mixed heritage Hebrews Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

And God does keep His promises.
 
jeremiah1five said:
There is significance Saul said "Greek" and not Gentile. He is referring to Hellenized Jews who after 15-21 generations after the remnants' return remained in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture. They were a people "[who] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" Eph 2:12.

But they were still as mixed heritage Hebrews Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

And God does keep His promises.
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Yes they are Gentiles. Gentile Salvation was prophesied Rom 15:8-12

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision[jews] for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
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Pauls mission was to make the Gentiles obedient to the Gospel Rom 15:16-18

16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

So you are denying scripture friend
 
Fred said:
Romans was also addressed to Gentiles (Romans 11:13).

Simple.
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Yes Both for there were both believing jews and Gentiles who believed in Rome, for Paul was writing to believers in General, all who had Faith Rom 1:8

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes they are Gentiles. Gentile Salvation was prophesied Rom 15:8-12
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But you won't find any of that in the Hebrew Scripture. Your interpretation breaks Scripture. If it is not chapter and verse then it is chatter and worse. The NT does not contradict the OT. If there is no precedent in the Old Testament, then there is no reality in the New Testament and the "break" is found in your interpretation of Romans 15. God never made covenant to save with non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Hebrew Scripture and if there is no precedent in the OT, then there is no reality in the NT and the failure is your interpretation because I hold to what Jesus said: Scripture CANNOT be broken. But your interpretation breaks Scripture where you say non-Hebrew Gentiles are included in the three Hebrew covenants when they are not. If there was an OT passage that records God making a salvation covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles then I would join you in your interpretation, but there is no such covenant as the Lord has covenant with Abraham and his Hebrew seed.
brightfame52 said:
Pauls mission was to make the Gentiles obedient to the Gospel Rom 15:16-18

16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

So you are denying scripture friend
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The Jews called half-Jew, half-Gentile "Samaritans" as Samaritans and not "Jew" the same way Jews in the NT called half-Jew, half-Gentiles as Gentile and not Jew. It would break Scripture if non-Hebrew Gentiles are in view in the NT. They must be Abraham's seed because that's who God has covenant with. Three thousand Jews were born again at Pentecost. Thousands more each day after that. The Church Christ promised to build was populated by Jews. And these "Gentiles" in the NT can only be mixed heritage Hebrews. There were no Gentiles in the Jerusalem Church. It was in Asia Minor - Gentile territory - where "Gentiles" (mixed heritage Hebrews) were being born-again. It was from these territories that Saul was sent to Jerusalem to discuss whether these Gentile-born Hebrews who were born again should be circumcised. The elders and apostles at Jerusalem would never command non-Hebrew Gentiles to be obedient to the Law of Moses for that was a no-no and would cause riots and the Jerusalem Church would lose all credibility if they ordered such a thing. These "Gentiles" are not non-Hebrew but are Abraham's seed who because God scattered them grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture. Saul says, "there is neither Jew nor GREEK" - NOT Gentile, but Greek referring to their Hellenization. And the only people that are heirs of the promise are Jews/Hebrews.

Show me in the Hebrew Scripture (Old Testament) God making a covenant to save with non-Hebrew Gentiles and you win this argument. It's that simple to change my mind. Show me the Scripture that includes intent of covenant...

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee and will multiply thee exceedingly. Gen. 17:2.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.

and has covenant language (see above) and I will concede. Otherwise, your interpretation breaks Scripture and violates the Word of God (OT.)

God made NO COVENANT with non-Hebrew Gentiles. NONE.
 
jeremiah1five said:
But you won't find any of that in the Hebrew Scripture. Your interpretation breaks Scripture. If it is not chapter and verse then it is chatter and worse. The NT does not contradict the OT. If there is no precedent in the Old Testament, then there is no reality in the New Testament and the "break" is found in your interpretation of Romans 15. God never made covenant to save with non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Hebrew Scripture and if there is no precedent in the OT, then there is no reality in the NT and the failure is your interpretation because I hold to what Jesus said: Scripture CANNOT be broken. But your interpretation breaks Scripture where you say non-Hebrew Gentiles are included in the three Hebrew covenants when they are not. If there was an OT passage that records God making a salvation covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles then I would join you in your interpretation, but there is no such covenant as the Lord has covenant with Abraham and his Hebrew seed.

The Jews called half-Jew, half-Gentile "Samaritans" as Samaritans and not "Jew" the same way Jews in the NT called half-Jew, half-Gentiles as Gentile and not Jew. It would break Scripture if non-Hebrew Gentiles are in view in the NT. They must be Abraham's seed because that's who God has covenant with. Three thousand Jews were born again at Pentecost. Thousands more each day after that. The Church Christ promised to build was populated by Jews. And these "Gentiles" in the NT can only be mixed heritage Hebrews. There were no Gentiles in the Jerusalem Church. It was in Asia Minor - Gentile territory - where "Gentiles" (mixed heritage Hebrews) were being born-again. It was from these territories that Saul was sent to Jerusalem to discuss whether these Gentile-born Hebrews who were born again should be circumcised. The elders and apostles at Jerusalem would never command non-Hebrew Gentiles to be obedient to the Law of Moses for that was a no-no and would cause riots and the Jerusalem Church would lose all credibility if they ordered such a thing. These "Gentiles" are not non-Hebrew but are Abraham's seed who because God scattered them grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture. Saul says, "there is neither Jew nor GREEK" - NOT Gentile, but Greek referring to their Hellenization. And the only people that are heirs of the promise are Jews/Hebrews.

Show me in the Hebrew Scripture (Old Testament) God making a covenant to save with non-Hebrew Gentiles and you win this argument. It's that simple to change my mind. Show me the Scripture that includes intent of covenant...

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee and will multiply thee exceedingly. Gen. 17:2.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.

and has covenant language (see above) and I will concede. Otherwise, your interpretation breaks Scripture and violates the Word of God (OT.)

God made NO COVENANT with non-Hebrew Gentiles. NONE.
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Gen 17 is about Gentile Salvation, Abrahams Spiritual Seed Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations[gentiles] have I made thee.
The word nations gôy:
nation, people

  1. nation, people
    1. usually of non-Hebrew people
    2. of descendants of Abraham
    3. of Israel

Its translated gentiles ,people etc

heathen (143x), Gentiles (30x), people (11x).

Also the first promise to Abraham was international in scope Gen 12:1-3

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

You think all the families of the earth is talking about one nation of israel ? NO Its all Spiritual
 

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