Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

you just contradicted yourself by answering yes since you limit the atonement.

next fallcy

You see the whole world from the perspective of fleshly, earthy, natural state as in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:47).

I see the whole world from the perspective of Godly, heavenly, spiritual as in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:48).

You see the whole world as everyone everywhere in all time.

I see the whole world as everyone making up the population of the Kingdom of God.

Your belief is that Christ's atonement results in unforgiven sin for people like Nancy (see the opening post).

My belief is that Christ's atonement results in forgiven sin with complete success because Lord Jesus Christ "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2)!

 

[Obadiah]

Calivie-wow-iszem is so wrong and must be rejected because of its false doctrine of Unconditional Election, which teaches that God chooses some individuals for salvation apart from any foreseen faith or response.

This view portrays God as arbitrary, undermining both His justice and love. Scripture testifies repeatedly that God desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9) and that Christ died for all (1 John 2:2; Heb 2:9).

Election, properly understood, is corporate and positional—centered in Christ (Eph 1:4). Individuals are elect in Him, not elected to be placed into Him. God’s foreknowledge includes His omniscient awareness of those who would freely believe the gospel (Rom 8:29; 1 Pet 1:1-2).

The Calivies view makes divine election mechanical and void of relational engagement. It ignores the clear biblical teaching that God’s call is sincere and that He honors faith wherever it is found (Acts 10:34-35). The universal offer of salvation is genuine, not a theological formality masking an exclusive decree.

 

[civic]

You see the whole world from the perspective of fleshly, earthy, natural state as in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:47).

I see the whole world from the perspective of Godly, heavenly, spiritual as in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:48).

You see the whole world as everyone everywhere in all time.

I see the whole world as everyone making up the population of the Kingdom of God.

Your belief is that Christ's atonement results in unforgiven sin for people like Nancy (see the opening post).

My belief is that Christ's atonement results in forgiven sin with complete success because Lord Jesus Christ "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2)!

projecting I see the whole world as the whole world, no exceptions just like scripture see's the whole, entire world- all its inhabitants as the Greek lexicons prove.

next falacy

 

[Kermos]

Calivie-wow-iszem is so wrong and must be rejected because of its false doctrine of Unconditional Election, which teaches that God chooses some individuals for salvation apart from any foreseen faith or response.

This view portrays God as arbitrary, undermining both His justice and love. Scripture testifies repeatedly that God desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9) and that Christ died for all (1 John 2:2; Heb 2:9).

Election, properly understood, is corporate and positional—centered in Christ (Eph 1:4). Individuals are elect in Him, not elected to be placed into Him. God’s foreknowledge includes His omniscient awareness of those who would freely believe the gospel (Rom 8:29; 1 Pet 1:1-2).

The Calivies view makes divine election mechanical and void of relational engagement. It ignores the clear biblical teaching that God’s call is sincere and that He honors faith wherever it is found (Acts 10:34-35). The universal offer of salvation is genuine, not a theological formality masking an exclusive decree.

Why don't you answer the following instead of bringing up an off-topic post? You have Jesus failing in His mission as shown in the following.

Jesus never fails. He made atonement for whosoever would believe in Him.

The jailer, greatly concerned, approached the two, falling before them and pleading, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul and Silas replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved …”
Acts 16:30-31

Intertwined inside of your statements of "He made atonement for" (about atonement) and "whosoever would believe in Him" (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure for people like "Nancy of the world".

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2)​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6), and God lovingly embraces His own with absolute assurance (John 10:28),

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[Obadiah]

Why don't you answer the following instead of bringing up an off-topic post? You have Jesus failing in His mission as shown in the following.



Intertwined inside of your statements of "He made atonement for" (about atonement) and "whosoever would believe in Him" (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure for people like "Nancy of the world".

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2)​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6), and God lovingly embraces His own with absolute assurance (John 10:28),

In Christ,
Kermos

Glad you liked it

 

[Kermos]

projecting I see the whole world as the whole world, no exceptions just like scripture see's the whole, entire world- all its inhabitants as the Greek lexicons prove.

next falacy

Did you know that your "the Greek lexicons" indicate that the use of the word world in the New Testament is defined by it's context?

In the context of "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2), the whole world is the whole world, no exceptions just like scripture see's the whole, entire world- all its inhabitants as the Greek lexicons prove to be exclusively the citizens of the Kingdom of God on the new Earth. Christ's finished atonement always succeeds! Hallelujah!

Because you see 1 John 2:2 with natural eyes of the whole world being everyone everywhere in all time on the current Earth reserved for fire (2 Peter 3:7), your Free-willian Philosophy results in Christ's failure atonement for people like Nancy (see the original post).

 

[Obadiah]

A big objection to Calivie-wow-iszem concerns the doctrine of Limited Atonement, which asserts that Christ died only for the elect and not for the whole world. This is a direct contradiction of numerous biblical passages.

Scripture plainly teaches that Jesus is “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), that He “tasted death for everyone” (Heb 2:9), and that He is “the propitiation… not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

The atonement is sufficient for all and applied only to those who believe. Calvinism’s limitation of the cross reduces the scope of divine love and restricts the sincerity of God’s universal invitation.

In contrast, the New Testament repeatedly affirms that salvation is available to whoever believes (John 3:16; Rom 10:13; Rev 22:17). Christ’s death is an actual provision they freely reject.

Limiting the atonement turns the cross into an exclusive transaction, instead of the worldwide offer that Scripture declares it to be.

 

[Blessed]

@Obadiah
You must keep an eye on those Calivie-wowers, they will definitely twist up some scriptures. The try to lead you down a dark path and act like they are doing you a favor.

 

[Bobby Walker]

@Obadiah
You must keep an eye on those Calivie-wowers, they will definitely twist up some scriptures. The try to lead you down a dark path and act like they are doing you a favor.

Yup!

 

[Kermos]

Glad you liked it

If the gracious atonement of Christ mattered to you, then you would have taken the post seriously.

As your post indicates, free-willians mock that "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

 

[Bobby Walker]

So we are going to clean up our act, right. Stop being rude and stop the name calling. I'm all i for it.

 

[Obadiah]

Sounds good to me.

 

[Kermos]

So we are going to clean up our act, right. Stop being rude and stop the name calling. I'm all i for it.

Fantastic!

Do you believe the whole world is (1) everyone everywhere in all time on the current Earth reserved for fire (2 Peter 3:7) or (2) exclusively the citizens of the Kingdom of God on the new Earth regarding "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2)?

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture plainly teaches that Jesus is “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), that He “tasted death for everyone” (Heb 2:9), and that He is “the propitiation… not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

Those scriptures pertains to the election of Grace, not all mankind

 

[Bobby Walker]

Fantastic!

Do you believe the whole world is (1) everyone everywhere in all time on the current Earth reserved for fire (2 Peter 3:7) or (2) exclusively the citizens of the Kingdom of God on the new Earth regarding "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2)?

I believe it's everyone ever born. But not everyone will choose to believe in Jesus and accept His free gift of salvation.

 

[Kermos]

Those scriptures pertains to the election of Grace, not all mankind

You are absolutely correct!

maintains that the Lamb of God failed to take away the sin of the world because the Lamb of God takes away the sin of people like Nancy of the world (see the opening post), so free-willian belief leads to the following:

​

Since Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation; therefore, Christ took away the sin of Nancy of the world, yet Nancy of the world is a hell occupant with sin taken away by Christ, so Christ failed to take away the sin of Nancy of the world.​

​

You and I know that Christ succeeds with certainty in being “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), but who quoted John 1:29, doesn’t know that Christ succeeds with certainty.

And, application of Free-willian Philosophy to the quote that Christ might “tasted<sp> death for everyone” (Hebrews 2:9) leads to the same result as outlined in the original post regarding "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[Obadiah]

Why don't you answer the following instead of bringing up an off-topic post? You have Jesus failing in His mission as shown in the following.



Intertwined inside of your statements of "He made atonement for" (about atonement) and "whosoever would believe in Him" (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure for people like "Nancy of the world".

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2)​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6), and God lovingly embraces His own with absolute assurance (John 10:28),

In Christ,
Kermos

I could not find Hell on a world map, so it must not be part of (the whole world)

“The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the tent of meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the members of the community.” — Leviticus 16:32-33

In Christianity, atonement refers to the needed reconciliation between sinful mankind and the holy God. This reconciliation is possible through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as expressed in Romans 3:25, Romans 5:11, and Romans 5:19. Atonement is the Bible’s central message.

In Christianity, the belief that Jesus atoned for our sins means his death on the cross paid the penalty for humanity's sins, reconciling people with God and eternal life to those who believe. Christians believe this sacrifice of his life was a ransom for all humankind, satisfying divine justice and offering a way for people to be forgiven, cleansed from sin, and achieve eternal life.

Key aspects of the atonement is our sins debt is paid in full.

A substitutionary sacrifice:
Jesus died in the place of sinners, taking on the punishment and wrath of God for sin.

Paid in full:
His death is considered a complete payment for sins, meaning no further sacrifices are needed.

Reconciliation with God:
Because of this act, those who have faith in Jesus can be reconciled with God and no longer be separated from him due to sin.

Righteousness and forgiveness:
The atonement provides the righteousness of Christ to believers, leading to forgiveness of sins and a state of being considered righteous in God's sight.

Resurrection and new life:
Jesus' resurrection after his death proves that he conquered death and offers the hope of a new, eternal life to those who believe.

 

[Administrator]

Also let's stop with the rude name calling of Calvinists or Arminian posters.

Rules List:

1a. No vulgarity, profanity, name calling, or slang expression(s) that could be interpreted as a suggestion of impropriety or generally regarded as demeaning in nature. (Ephesians 5:3-5) Address members by their screen names and do not mock or make fun of their names.

1b.No abusive, insulting, or derogatory language. (Colossians 3:5, 8)

1c. No attacks on another poster's religious beliefs, race, national origin, or gender.

1d. No chats that deteriorate into petty bickering, gossip, backbiting, or argumentative bantering.

2. No Flaming, Goading, Gaslighting or Harassment.

2a. All members should be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy at all times following the rules of civil discourse.

2b. No insults are allowed. Included in this are all forms of flaming, harassment, and trolling/goading as determined at the discretion of the Berean Board Team. Trolling/Goading is defined as repeated attempts through the use of images, cartoons, smileys or text that is designed to be explicitly demeaning, patronizing, embarrassing, or otherwise upsetting to a member or group of members in the community. Do not call anyone a heretic, false teacher, a cultist , satanic or any other such term.

2c. Do not discuss other posters.

 

[Obadiah]

@Administrator
Sorry, I'll clean up my act.

 

[Darby]

Also let's stop with the rude name calling of Calvinists or Arminian posters.

Rules List:

1a. No vulgarity, profanity, name calling, or slang expression(s) that could be interpreted as a suggestion of impropriety or generally regarded as demeaning in nature. (Ephesians 5:3-5) Address members by their screen names and do not mock or make fun of their names.

1b.No abusive, insulting, or derogatory language. (Colossians 3:5, 8)

1c. No attacks on another poster's religious beliefs, race, national origin, or gender.

1d. No chats that deteriorate into petty bickering, gossip, backbiting, or argumentative bantering.

2. No Flaming, Goading, Gaslighting or Harassment.

2a. All members should be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy at all times following the rules of civil discourse.

2b. No insults are allowed. Included in this are all forms of flaming, harassment, and trolling/goading as determined at the discretion of the Berean Board Team. Trolling/Goading is defined as repeated attempts through the use of images, cartoons, smileys or text that is designed to be explicitly demeaning, patronizing, embarrassing, or otherwise upsetting to a member or group of members in the community. Do not call anyone a heretic, false teacher, a cultist , satanic or any other such term.

2c. Do not discuss other posters.

I have heard that kind of behavior called "Giving Jesus a "blackeye" meaning making Christianity look bad. Like any guests the are not saved come here and read us doing 1d. bickering, gossip, backbiting, or argumentative bantering. It's just not a good testimony.