Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

TibiasDad, your silence on the matter of willpower control exposed your free-willian fallacy.

Men with wills are not inanimate objects like cars. Cars are subject to the will of the driver. If a tow truck is needed, it is because the/a driver was reckless. The car itself never acts independently so as to be responsible.

Your application of the difference between the car and the tow truck and the correspondences of “the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God” is gratuitous and self-stultifying.

Doug

Neither are "Men with wills are not inanimate objects like" the soil, yet the Word of God gave the parable of the Sower sowing seed on the soil which the soil is analogous with men (Matthew 13:3-9; Matthew 13:18-23).

A tow truck can be used when a person relocates to a new home in a different state, so the person takes a plane to the new home meanwhile hires a trucking company to bring the car. Your "If a tow truck is needed, it is because the/a driver was reckless" "is gratuitous and self-stultifying".

The Car and Truck Analogy is a parable of sorts because it has a Heavenly message about Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) that a person is "driven" by self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), or a person is "driven" by the Will of God (Philippians 2:13).

You hold to free-will which is not really free-will but self-will.

 

[TibiasDad]

You intertwined atonement and salvation, again.

Nope, that’s you making straw man arguments! Atonement is not salvation nor forgiveness! It is the means of reconciling God to the world, which makes forgiveness and salvation possible!

You, on the other hand, equate forgiveness and atonement as meaning the same thing! That’s why I asked if “the whole world is saved” because the whole world's sins were atoned for and “not ours (current believers) only!

Then you abandoned the whole world as being everyone everywhere in all time having atonement mentioned in 1 John 2:2 to shift the whole world as being only free-willians having salvation or atonement or salvation.

Did nothing of the sort, and never will! The whole world is everyone, everywhere in all times. Whoever believes will be saved! Nobody’s sins are excluded as a general rule of thumb.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

The fascinating thing is the nouns propitiation and atonement are synonymous, and the gerund phrase the atoning sacrifice is a noun phrase

No, it is a verb acting as a noun! Expiation, “the act of extinguishing the guilt incurred by something”, is another synonym.

This act is what allows God to “not count men’s sins against us” especially when we believe! Nothing is forgiven until we believe! But when we believe, we are saved because he atoned for the sins of the whole world! The act of atonement gives us something to believe in and be saved!


Doug

 

[Kermos]

God doesn’t “cause” you to post. He allows you to post. If God causes us to post, then he causes me to post too, which means that God causes one of us to post a falsehood.

You do not believe God controls you.

I believe Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

I said “If forgiveness is achieved by the atonement itself, aside from belief, confession and repentance”, which is what you have argued for, “then the whole world is saved,” because the atonement means forgiveness is accomplished, and thus the whole world is necessarily saved, “and you are a universalist!”

That is the logical conclusion of your argument.


Doug

Your belief about me is your "which is what you have argued for", so you bear false witness such as "you are a universalist". Notice, in the opening post to this very thread - the opening post to which you previously replied - contains:

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement).
​

The Word of God says "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16).

There is no universalism in that which God's love controls me to post, yet you called me a universalist according to you.

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

 

[civic]

Nope, that’s you making straw man arguments! Atonement is not salvation nor forgiveness! It is the means of reconciling God to the world, which makes forgiveness and salvation possible!

You, on the other hand, equate forgiveness and atonement as meaning the same thing! That’s why I asked if “the whole world is saved” because the whole world's sins were atoned for and “not ours (current believers) only!

Did nothing of the sort, and never will! The whole world is everyone, everywhere in all times. Whoever believes will be saved! Nobody’s sins are excluded as a general rule of thumb.


Doug

Spot on brother

 

[civic]

You do not believe God controls you.

I believe Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).



Your belief about me is your "which is what you have argued for", so you bear false witness such as "you are a universalist". Notice, in the opening post to this very thread - the opening post to which you previously replied - contains:

​

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.​

​

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement).​

​

The Word of God says "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16).

There is no universalism in that which God's love controls me to post, yet you called me a universalist according to you.

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

If you actually believed what you claim you would never sin. But since you still sin then Christ does not in fact “ control “ you.

Next fallacy

 

[TibiasDad]

You do not believe God controls you.

The word sunechó means to compel when used metaphorically. It is the only possibility that makes sense:

2. (figuratively) to compel, perplex, afflict, preoccupy

Doug

 

[Kermos]

Not irresistibly! God grants us to repent, which is an act of grace, but he does not make us repent irresistibly. He gives us the acceptance of our repentance, which he does not have to accept.

Doug

You writing in circles or convolutions about thinking differently afterwards (repentance). You also slipped the word "grants" as a replacement for the more accurate gives. Essentially, you wrote:

​

Not irresistibly! God gives us to think differently afterwards, which is an act of grace, but he does not make us think differently afterwards irresistibly. He gives us the acceptance of our thinking differently afterwards, which he does not have to accept.​

​

Your "acceptance" in there is a work of the thoughts which the work of the thoughts would really be the thinking differently afterwards (repentance), so one cannot work "acceptance" thoughts without thinking, so your free-willian philosophy fails to escape God as cause for thinking differently afterwards.

In essence, you believe that God giving righteous thoughts about God into a man can lead to the man going to hell (look at your last clause, TibiasDad); in other words, you believe that man can be snatched out of God's Hand in defiance of "no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

Let's review Holy Spirit inspired writings about thinking differently afterwards (repentance):

​

We children of God repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25), and the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18), so clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward).​

​

Oh, look, your thoughts failed to judge what is right (Luke 12:57) with your "he does not make us repent irresistibly" about Christians.

Your "The cause of reconciliation is the whole process in order: atonement, God not counting men’s sins against them, conviction of sin, confess and repentance of sin, forgiveness of those sins, and the Holy Spirit entering the heart of man making him spiritually alive and one with God" (proof post #63) very badly places in last place that which is in first place according to the Truth (John 14:6) because the Christ of us Christians says the first place is "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) bringing the Life (John 14:6) into the new man which includes Christ's finished atonement securing the new man's forgiveness of sin thus the new man reconciled as at one with God (look at the last 3 words of yours quoted, there, too, where you put the first as the last).

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

 

[TibiasDad]

The Word of God says "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16).

Then stop doing it!

Doug

 

[Kermos]

@TibiasDad, the compound effect of the 5 posts to you clearly proved that you believe in Christ's failure atonement, and you try ro dilute the posts, but this post keeps the points going.

You confusedly collided your first place "atonement" (which indicates the state of being "at one" with God) with your last place of "one with God" within your "The cause of reconciliation is the whole process in order: atonement, God not counting men’s sins against them, conviction of sin, confess and repentance of sin, forgiveness of those sins, and the Holy Spirit entering the heart of man making him spiritually alive and one with God", so you produced another spiritual error.

(You neglected to post a reply directly to post #66 which was the second of five posts about your "order of reconciliation", so this post maintains sequence.)

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

 

[TibiasDad]

Essentially, you wrote:
Not irresistibly! God gives us to think differently afterwards, which is an act of grace, but he does not make us think differently afterwards irresistibly. He gives us the acceptance of our thinking differently afterwards, which he does not have to accept.

Are you quoting me directly or just writing what you think I said. Bad form! Deal with what I actually say, not some straw man thing that makes your argument sound.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

@TibiasDad, the compound effect of the 5 posts to you clearly proved that you believe in Christ's failure atonement, and you try ro dilute the posts, but this post keeps the points going.

Christ’s atonement directly accomplished one thing, it reconciled the world to God so that God could not count men’s sins against them, which makes forgiveness possible through belief in what Christ did!

I was not forgiven when Christ died! I was made able to be forgiven if and when I believe. Belief is expressed in my confessing my guilt and repenting of my sinful behaviors.


Doug

 

[Kampioen]

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

The atonement didn't fail those in hell because the atonement only opened up access to God for forgiveness for which it was successful but doesn't make anyone access it. That was their responsibility.

 

[civic]

The atonement didn't fail those in hell because the atonement only opened up access to God for forgiveness for which it was successful but doesn't make anyone access it. That was their responsibility.

Amen

 

[Kermos]

@TibiasDad, here is another that shows the compound effect of the 5 posts to you clearly proving that you believe in Christ's failure atonement, and you try ro dilute the posts, but this post keeps the points going. You skipped the prior and you skipped this one.

Look at your incredibly wrong way of putting "conviction of sin" well in advance of "the Holy Spirit entering the heart of man" within your "order of reconciliation" which you publicly posted "The cause of reconciliation is the whole process in order: atonement, God not counting men’s sins against them, conviction of sin, confess and repentance of sin, forgiveness of those sins, and the Holy Spirit entering the heart of man making him spiritually alive and one with God" (proof post #67).

Lord Jesus Christ says "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:16-17)

Either your "False, I have always said clearly that the Holy Spirit’s purpose was, in part, to convict the world of sin! I have never denied this." (proof post #85) is anti-truth, or you are incredibly spiritually confused, or both.

A valid point is that the Holy Spirit is in a person at the time the person is convicted of sin which demolishes your "order of reconciliation".

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

 

[civic]

@TibiasDad, here is another that shows the compound effect of the 5 posts to you clearly proving that you believe in Christ's failure atonement, and you try ro dilute the posts, but this post keeps the points going. You skipped the prior and you skipped this one.

Look at your incredibly wrong way of putting "conviction of sin" well in advance of "the Holy Spirit entering the heart of man" within your "order of reconciliation" which you publicly posted "The cause of reconciliation is the whole process in order: atonement, God not counting men’s sins against them, conviction of sin, confess and repentance of sin, forgiveness of those sins, and the Holy Spirit entering the heart of man making him spiritually alive and one with God" (proof post #67).

Lord Jesus Christ says "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:16-17)

Either your "False, I have always said clearly that the Holy Spirit’s purpose was, in part, to convict the world of sin! I have never denied this." (proof post #85) is anti-truth, or you are incredibly spiritually confused, or both.

A valid point is that the Holy Spirit is in a person at the time the person is convicted of sin which demolishes your "order of reconciliation".

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

you do not understand the atonement which is obvious. Just like the snake Moses held up in the wilderness when the Israelites were bitten- those who looked upon it in faith were healed, those who did not died. Those who look to Jesus sacrifice for their sins in faith have their sins atoned, forgiven and those who remain in unbelief do not. Its exactly what Jesus taught in John in John 3.

hope this helps !!!

 

[TibiasDad]

@TibiasDad, here is another that shows the compound effect of the 5 posts to you clearly proving that you believe in Christ's failure atonement, and you try ro dilute the posts, but this post keeps the points going. You skipped the prior and you skipped this one.

Look at your incredibly wrong way of putting "conviction of sin" well in advance of "the Holy Spirit entering the heart of man" within your "order of reconciliation" which you publicly posted "The cause of reconciliation is the whole process in order: atonement, God not counting men’s sins against them, conviction of sin, confess and repentance of sin, forgiveness of those sins, and the Holy Spirit entering the heart of man making him spiritually alive and one with God" (proof post #67).

Lord Jesus Christ says "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:16-17)

Either your "False, I have always said clearly that the Holy Spirit’s purpose was, in part, to convict the world of sin! I have never denied this." (proof post #85) is anti-truth, or you are incredibly spiritually confused, or both.

A valid point is that the Holy Spirit is in a person at the time the person is convicted of sin which demolishes your "order of reconciliation".

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

Acts 2:36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Notice that conviction of their sin precedes their having the Holy Spirit within them.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

A valid point is that the Holy Spirit is in a person at the time the person is convicted of sin which demolishes your "order of reconciliation".

Where have I ever denied the personhood of the Spirit? That is a delusional argument showing the desperation of your situation.

Doug

 

[civic]

Where have I ever denied the personhood of the Spirit? That is a delusional argument showing the desperation of your situation.

Doug

Amen

 

[Kermos]

If you actually believed what you claim you would never sin. But since you still sin then Christ does not in fact “ control “ you.

Next fallacy

@civic, your words sound like you've not heard of the flesh nor walking according to the Spirit! Paul says it quite well:

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 7:14-25-Romans 8:1-8)
​

@civic, @TibiasDad, and @Kampioen (you last 2 are included because of your hearty agreement (Like) with @civic), see that we Christians walk according to the Holy Spirit of the Living God which means that Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Your words indicate that you do not believe that Christ's love controls you.

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).