Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

TibiasDad, your silence on the matter of willpower control exposed your free-willian fallacy.

Men with wills are not inanimate objects like cars. Cars are subject to the will of the driver. If a tow truck is needed, it is because the/a driver was reckless. The car itself never acts independently so as to be responsible.

Your application of the difference between the car and the tow truck and the correspondences of “the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God” is gratuitous and self-stultifying.

Doug

Neither are "Men with wills are not inanimate objects like" the soil, yet the Word of God gave the parable of the Sower sowing seed on the soil which the soil is analogous with men (Matthew 13:3-9; Matthew 13:18-23).

A tow truck can be used when a person relocates to a new home in a different state, so the person takes a plane to the new home meanwhile hires a trucking company to bring the car. Your "If a tow truck is needed, it is because the/a driver was reckless" "is gratuitous and self-stultifying".

The Car and Truck Analogy is a parable of sorts because it has a Heavenly message about Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) that a person is "driven" by self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), or a person is "driven" by the Will of God (Philippians 2:13).

You hold to free-will which is not really free-will but self-will.

 

[TibiasDad]

You intertwined atonement and salvation, again.

Nope, that’s you making straw man arguments! Atonement is not salvation nor forgiveness! It is the means of reconciling God to the world, which makes forgiveness and salvation possible!

You, on the other hand, equate forgiveness and atonement as meaning the same thing! That’s why I asked if “the whole world is saved” because the whole world's sins were atoned for and “not ours (current believers) only!

Then you abandoned the whole world as being everyone everywhere in all time having atonement mentioned in 1 John 2:2 to shift the whole world as being only free-willians having salvation or atonement or salvation.

Did nothing of the sort, and never will! The whole world is everyone, everywhere in all times. Whoever believes will be saved! Nobody’s sins are excluded as a general rule of thumb.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

The fascinating thing is the nouns propitiation and atonement are synonymous, and the gerund phrase the atoning sacrifice is a noun phrase

No, it is a verb acting as a noun! Expiation, “the act of extinguishing the guilt incurred by something“, is another synonym.

This act is what allows God to “not count men’s sins against us” especially when we believe! Nothing is forgiven until we believe! But when we believe, we are saved because he atoned for the sins of the whole world! The act of atonement gives us something to believe in and be saved!


Doug

 

[Kermos]

God doesn’t “cause” you to post. He allows you to post. If God causes us to post, then he causes me to post too, which means that God causes one of us to post a falsehood.

You do not believe God controls you.

I believe Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

I said “If forgiveness is achieved by the atonement itself, aside from belief, confession and repentance”, which is what you have argued for, “then the whole world is saved,” because the atonement means forgiveness is accomplished, and thus the whole world is necessarily saved, “and you are a universalist!”

That is the logical conclusion of your argument.


Doug

Your belief about me is your "which is what you have argued for", so you bear false witness such as "you are a universalist". Notice, in the opening post to this very thread - the opening post to which you previously replied - contains:

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement).
​

The Word of God says "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16).

There is no universalism in that which God's love controls me to post, yet you called me a universalist according to you.

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).