Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

First off, you are promoting falsehoods about what "I" believe and this because you do not actually read other peoples posts. You are here to "Proclaim" your personal religion, in spite of what is actually written. Which is fine, you have free will to adopt and promote any philosophy you choose. I pointed out to you who "Jesus Said", the Jesus "of the Bible" said, HE chooses to save, based on His Own Words. You continued as if the Word's of this Jesus didn't even exist, refusing to even acknowledge them.

I believe only those who are given to Jesus by His Father, those who are "learned of the Father", are saved. That is what my Posts have represented. Please, it is fine to disagree with someone, but it's a SIN to be a talebearer among the brethren.


When a person cherry picks scriptures, in other words, if a person only listens to, believes or considers 1/3 of the message given to them, it is spiritually and literally impossible to understand the truth of the message. However, it is a required practice to engage in such cherry picking, when promoting philosophies that can not stand if all of the message is considered.

You have the free will ability to seek God's Truth, through living by Every Word of God, as Jesus did and instructs others to do, or you can choose instead to use Some of His inspired Word to justify one or more religious philosophies of this world's religious system that you have adopted.

I would recommend that you "Yield Yourself" to God in repentance, and follow the Christ, of the Bible's, instruction to Seek First the Righteousness of God, in Hope that HE gives you to Jesus for cleansing.



Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore "that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father", cometh unto me.

Jesus also said: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Man has both the free will to "choose" to believe Christ's Words or "choose" to "Believe NOT" Christ's Words".

One leads to Life, the other Death, according to God's Inspired Words. Personally I have no reason to doubt Him.


Yes, the Word of God is Truth.

Deut. 30: 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, "I have set before thee" this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that "I command thee this day" to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 "But" "if thine heart turn away", so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, "that ye shall surely perish", and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I have set before you" life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore "choose" life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Largely, I use free-will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

You wrote "you have free will", so you believe in free-will. To be absolutely clear, I do not have a free-will, yet I have a Christ image will (Romans 8:29).

Christ atones exclusively for people whom He chooses.

Tell me, where am I wrong about your free-willian philosophy.

You alluded about me with your "a person only listens to, believes or considers 1/3 of the message given to them", but then you also accused me with your "it is fine to disagree with someone, but it's a SIN to be a talebearer among the brethren"; therefore, you hypocritically accused me, and Lord Jesus railed against the hypocrites (Matthew 23:13).

Since no Word of God states man was imparted a free-will, then you don't even cherry-pick because you have no Word of God supporting that man has a free-will. Not a single quotation that you included states that man has a free-will.

Studyman, Moses' words recorded in Deuteronomy 30:15-20 state not that "Man has the Free will" "to believe" "Christ's Words".

In fact, we find the Lord God Almighty saying to Moses just a little later:

​

Then it shall come about, when many evils and troubles have come upon them, that this song will testify before them as a witness (for it shall not be forgotten from the lips of their descendants); for I know their intent which they are developing today, before I have brought them into the land which I swore.​

(Deuteronomy 31:21)​

​

So, the command "choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19) of Moses failed, so the people are not proof of free-will. You are not paying attention to the full counsel of God.

 

[Studyman]

Largely, I use free-will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

You wrote "you have free will", so you believe in free-will. To be absolutely clear, I do not have a free-will,

Here is the slander you told about me.

"You wrote "there is no Salvation without Atonement, because one doesn't exist without the other", and this is what God has me here proclaiming, but you Free-willians believe that atonement exists without salvation "because you believe" that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell.

Salvation cannot exist without Atonement. This is undeniable Biblical Truth. The problem with men who are only interested in self justification, is that they must find a way to justify their every word and philosophy. There is nothing in any of my posts which imply, suggest or declare your slanderous statements about my beliefs.

Adam had a choice to make, death or Life. To believe you, I would have to believe that God made Adam eat, because there was no free will with Adam. And then God punished Adam and all mankind for something that HE made Adam do.

Notice Adam's response. "And the man said, The woman whom "thou gavest to be with me", she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Adam was only interested in self justification here. It was God's Fault for giving him the woman. But God knew it was Adam's own free will choice.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which "I commanded thee", saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life"

Adam was punished because of his own free will choice to disobey.

You have the free will to believe what is actually written, or Not. It's your choice.

yet I have a Christ image will (Romans 8:29).

Yes, "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, declare the same thing. But it's not always about you. It's about what is actually written in Scriptures when they are all considered.

Rom. 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good "to them" that love God, "to them" who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom "he did foreknow",

Is. 46: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things "that are not yet done", saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

In God's World, He has already seen all my choices, just as HE saw the Choices of Jesus. He already knows what I will do tomorrow because in His Realm, I have already done it. Just as Jesus was "slain from the foundation of the world" I don't know what will happen tomorrow, I may die. That is why I am told, "today, if you hear His Voice, (Choose not to) harden not your heart".

he also did predestinate to be conformed "to the image of his Son", that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. The Book of Life was written from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. I am living my life now, but God already knows the end from the beginning.

As it is written also by Paul concerning God, "Who will render to "every man" according to his deeds:"

The philosophy that God makes a man sin against Him, and then judges this man, or that God makes a man respect Him, and then accepts this man, is poplar in this world's religious system. but the Scriptures do not support such a philosophy.

Christ atones exclusively for people whom He chooses.

I showed you Christ's own Words in which HE tells us who HE chooses. They that turn to His Father, and are Learned from Him.

Tell me, where am I wrong about your free-willian philosophy.

You refusal to accept God's Spoken Truth concerning man's obligation to, of their own free will, repent and turn to God from the heart, is the reason for my replies. And your accusation against me was way more that just believing a man is judged by his free will works. And you know this.

You alluded about me with your "a person only listens to, believes or considers 1/3 of the message given to them", but then you also accused me with your "it is fine to disagree with someone, but it's a SIN to be a talebearer among the brethren"; therefore, you hypocritically accused me, and Lord Jesus railed against the hypocrites (Matthew 23:13).

Here is your slander again.

"You wrote "there is no Salvation without Atonement, because one doesn't exist without the other", and this is what God has me here proclaiming, but you Free-willians believe that atonement exists without salvation "because you believe" that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that "you believe" Christ atoned for people in hell.

Why not just man-up and admit you got carried away in your zeal to promote your religion.

Since no Word of God states man was imparted a free-will,

I posted God own Words in which He tells men to "Choose". By virtue of God giving Adam and Eve a "LAW", is proof positive that they were given the capability to "choose" good or choose evil.

So this statement from you, even though you believe it to be true, does not stand up when all of God's Words are considered.

then you don't even cherry-pick because you have no Word of God supporting that man has a free-will. Not a single quotation that you included states that man has a free-will.

If you only believe 1/3 of God's Words, this might explain your philosophy, which is very popular.

Studyman, Moses' words recorded in Deuteronomy 30:15-20 state not that "Man has the Free will" "to believe" "Christ's Words".

In fact, we find the Lord God Almighty saying to Moses just a little later:

​

Then it shall come about, when many evils and troubles have come upon them, that this song will testify before them as a witness (for it shall not be forgotten from the lips of their descendants); for I know their intent which they are developing today, before I have brought them into the land which I swore.​

(Deuteronomy 31:21)​

It is true that God sees the intent of man's heart.

16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Can you answer me what Choice these men made, according to the choices God gave them in Deut. 30?

What choice did Caleb and Joshua make? You see, to believe you and other Calvinist's, I would have to believe that God withheld from those who wanted to stone Caleb for his belief, the capacity to Believe in God, while God separated Caleb out for saving, based on no free will choices he made.

So, the command "choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19) of Moses failed,

No it didn't fail at all. It fulfilled God's Purpose.

Ex. 16: 4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Ex. 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces,that ye sin not.
Deut. 8: 1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers. 2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, "to know what was in thine heart", whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
Judges 2: 21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: 22 That through them "I may prove Israel", whether they will keep the way of the LORD "to walk therein", as their fathers did keep it, or not.

Jud. 3: 4 And they were to prove Israel by them, to "know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD", which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.

So no sir, God's instruction didn't "Fail" as you falsely preach. It worked perfectly to weed out the Tares from the Wheat.

Paul confirms this understanding.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye" present "your" bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (A free Will Offering)

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Clearly Paul was a "Freewillian".

so the people are not proof of free-will. You are not paying attention to the full counsel of God.

Deut. 23: 23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

Ex. 19:
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above allpeople: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken "we will do". And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

 

[Kermos]

Here is the slander you told about me.



Salvation cannot exist without Atonement. This is undeniable Biblical Truth. The problem with men who are only interested in self justification, is that they must find a way to justify their every word and philosophy. There is nothing in any of my posts which imply, suggest or declare your slanderous statements about my beliefs.

Adam had a choice to make, death or Life. To believe you, I would have to believe that God made Adam eat, because there was no free will with Adam. And then God punished Adam and all mankind for something that HE made Adam do.

Notice Adam's response. "And the man said, The woman whom "thou gavest to be with me", she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Adam was only interested in self justification here. It was God's Fault for giving him the woman. But God knew it was Adam's own free will choice.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which "I commanded thee", saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life"

Adam was punished because of his own free will choice to disobey.

You have the free will to believe what is actually written, or Not. It's your choice.



Yes, "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, declare the same thing. But it's not always about you. It's about what is actually written in Scriptures when they are all considered.

Rom. 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good "to them" that love God, "to them" who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom "he did foreknow",

Is. 46: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things "that are not yet done", saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

In God's World, He has already seen all my choices, just as HE saw the Choices of Jesus. He already knows what I will do tomorrow because in His Realm, I have already done it. Just as Jesus was "slain from the foundation of the world" I don't know what will happen tomorrow, I may die. That is why I am told, "today, if you hear His Voice, (Choose not to) harden not your heart".

he also did predestinate to be conformed "to the image of his Son", that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. The Book of Life was written from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. I am living my life now, but God already knows the end from the beginning.

As it is written also by Paul concerning God, "Who will render to "every man" according to his deeds:"

The philosophy that God makes a man sin against Him, and then judges this man, or that God makes a man respect Him, and then accepts this man, is poplar in this world's religious system. but the Scriptures do not support such a philosophy.



I showed you Christ's own Words in which HE tells us who HE chooses. They that turn to His Father, and are Learned from Him.


You refusal to accept God's Spoken Truth concerning man's obligation to, of their own free will, repent and turn to God from the heart, is the reason for my replies. And your accusation against me was way more that just believing a man is judged by his free will works. And you know this.




Here is your slander again.



Why not just man-up and admit you got carried away in your zeal to promote your religion.



I posted God own Words in which He tells men to "Choose". By virtue of God giving Adam and Eve a "LAW", is proof positive that they were given the capability to "choose" good or choose evil.

So this statement from you, even though you believe it to be true, does not stand up when all of God's Words are considered.



If you only believe 1/3 of God's Words, this might explain your philosophy, which is very popular.


It is true that God sees the intent of man's heart.

16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Can you answer me what Choice these men made, according to the choices God gave them in Deut. 30?

What choice did Caleb and Joshua make? You see, to believe you and other Calvinist's, I would have to believe that God withheld from those who wanted to stone Caleb for his belief, the capacity to Believe in God, while God separated Caleb out for saving, based on no free will choices he made.




No it didn't fail at all. It fulfilled God's Purpose.

Ex. 16: 4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Ex. 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces,that ye sin not.
Deut. 8: 1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers. 2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, "to know what was in thine heart", whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
Judges 2: 21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: 22 That through them "I may prove Israel", whether they will keep the way of the LORD "to walk therein", as their fathers did keep it, or not.

Jud. 3: 4 And they were to prove Israel by them, to "know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD", which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.

So no sir, God's instruction didn't "Fail" as you falsely preach. It worked perfectly to weed out the Tares from the Wheat.

Paul confirms this understanding.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye" present "your" bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (A free Will Offering)

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Clearly Paul was a "Freewillian".



Deut. 23: 23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

Ex. 19:
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above allpeople: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken "we will do". And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Regarding your opening section, there, you replied to the original post that focuses on Christ’s finished atonement while demonstrating the Free-willian Philosophy results Christ's failure atonement.

You conveyed you believe that Christ atoned for everybody everywhere in all time by disputing against the original post content.

If you believe otherwise, then, please, do tell tell me that the whole world within Holy Spirit inspired "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2) applies exclusively to people that God chooses while at the same time people do not choose God.

It's not slander unless you can do this and mean it.

 

[Studyman]

Regarding your opening section, there, you replied to the original post that focuses on Christ’s finished atonement while demonstrating the Free-willian Philosophy results Christ's failure atonement.

I think you should actually read what Jesus says.

"Jesus Himself tells us who HE chooses.

John 6: 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him": and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. "Every man" therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, "ye have no life in you". 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

You conveyed you believe that Christ atoned for everybody everywhere in all time

It is only common decency to actually read someone's post, before judging it.

Paul understood this Spiritual Truth.

Acts 20: 18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, "and" faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus also taught the importance of repentance towards His Father.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, "ye shall all likewise perish".

In this way we can prove ourselves, if we are chosen by the Christ to Save or not.

Remember, according to this same Jesus, there are "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, that preach they they have been chosen by Christ to Save, but Jesus Himself said HE doesn't know them. And this because they did not show repentance towards God, choosing instead to continue in transgressing God's Judgment, commandments and Statutes, AKA, "Work iniquity)

by disputing against the original post content.

Your religious philosophy is being challenged because it promotes a different teaching than the Jesus "of the Bible".

If you believe otherwise, then, please, do tell tell me that the whole world within Holy Spirit inspired "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2) applies exclusively to people that God chooses while at the same time people do not choose God.

Your practice of cherry picking Scriptures is frustrating. Nevertheless, I will post the verses that you refuse to acknowledge, and be on my way.

1 John. 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby "we do know" that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, "I know him", and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: "hereby know we" that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[Kermos]

I think you should actually read what Jesus says.

I believe in Lord Jesus Christ for my Lord tells me that “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)!

I believe the words of Lord Jesus Christ for my Lord makes clear to me that "It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life" (John 6:63)!

I know that Lord Jesus Christ sought and saved every Christian which includes me because the Word of God declares "the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10)!

Shall we discuss the free-willian foundation "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with being saved"?

It is only common decency to actually read someone's post, before judging it.

"Man has the Free will" "to believe" "Christ's Words" (Studyman, proof post #21).

“Everyone who is of the Truth hears My voice” (John 18:37).

“I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except because of me.” (John 14:6).

Paul understood this Spiritual Truth.

Acts 20: 18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, "and" faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus also taught the importance of repentance towards His Father.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, "ye shall all likewise perish".

In this way we can prove ourselves, if we are chosen by the Christ to Save or not.

Remember, according to this same Jesus, there are "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, that preach they they have been chosen by Christ to Save, but Jesus Himself said HE doesn't know them. And this because they did not show repentance towards God, choosing instead to continue in transgressing God's Judgment, commandments and Statutes, AKA, "Work iniquity)

Your religious philosophy is being challenged because it promotes a different teaching than the Jesus "of the Bible".

We children of God repent by God our Father working in us, for the Christ of us Christians says
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

And the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

So clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward).

Your practice of cherry picking Scriptures is frustrating. Nevertheless, I will post the verses that you refuse to acknowledge, and be on my way.

Since no Word of God states man was imparted a free-will, then you don't even cherry-pick because you have no Word of God stating that man was imparted a free-will. Not a single quotation that you included states that man has a free-will.

1 John. 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

You free-willians believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell which results in Christ's failure atonement. See the opening post in this thread.

No mere human chooses Christ in any way because Christ says you did not choose Me
(John 15:16), so free-will exists not.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven which is Christ's finished atonement.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2)​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

3 And hereby "we do know" that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

The Christ of us Christians says
“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

And, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God.

4 He that saith, "I know him", and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Holy Spirit inspired John declares that a person does not know Christ the Truth (John 14:6) and keep Christ the Truth's commandments apart from Christ the Truth (1 John 2:4) thus the Holy Spirit reveals what a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) is.

5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: "hereby know we" that we are in him.

The Christ of us Christians says
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34).

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God - God in us!

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5).

I can do nothing apart from my Lord Jesus Christ, and my will is bound to God in Christ. To God be the praise and glory forever and ever!

 

[Kampioen]

You continue preaching that Christ failed as an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party, God, for incapable man (italicized portion is from Strong's Greek: 2434. ἱλασμός (hilasmos) -- Propitiation, Atoning Sacrifice on BibleHub.com) because you believe "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (italicized portion is from you as recorded in post #27).

You have God angry at His own fault. And He can't help it because He has no other existing libertarian choice than to predetermine us. You make God a failure.

Those in hell were atoned for in as far as their sins were included in the atonement but doesn't mean already forgiven. Otherwise people wouldn't be dead in sin for years before getting saved if at all. That's where you make the atonement/God a failure.

But like I said, God prefers libertarian free will over keeping people out of hell. So the option of failure is His preference. Not like He couldn't help it. He could ensure more people to heaven if He wanted, and maybe has.

You have nothing to reconcile your Free-willian Philosophy resulting in Christ's failure atonement, so your Free-willian Philosophy holds that Christ misses the mark for His rescue mission.

You're the one who has Christ failing, leaving people dead in sin for years before finally getting saved, despite having already died for sins.

God has given me Holy Spirit inspired "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10), so Christ died to make at one (atone, reconcile) the whole world with God which includes exclusively God's selected persons for the Kingdom of God (John 3:3; John 15:16; John 15:19; 1 John 2:2).

Paul could have refused. But if Paul would have refused, God would either have cajoled him to do it anyway or chosen someone else. But God was going to see to it that His plan got fulfilled, as with Moses, Jonah and Esther, which will be shown later below.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

^Jesus was convincing this man to want the new birth while he was still dead in sin.


Acts 16:30 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

^This man wanted the new birth ie salvation but didn't know how, and may never get saved if somebody doesn't tell him how.


John 15:16 (KJV) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

^Jonah was chosen yet refused God's calling, so God later roughed him up to convince him. ... And ...

... Moses was chosen but refused to speak for God, so God got angry and instead chose Aaron to be Moses' spokesman. ...

Paul just libertarianly happened to choose what God said in the first place. Foreknown of course.


God chose Esther, but if she refused, God would have chosen someone else. ...

Esther 4:14 (KJV) For ...

... **if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place;** ...

but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and ...

... **who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?**


1 John 2:2 (KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

^This means He can now proceed to forgive sins, not that people are already limitedly prepicked and already forgiven.

There is no such thing as free-will, but there is such a thing as self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10). The only Way (John 14:6) to have faith in Christ is because of God's work inside of us children of God since the Word of God says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Jesus was countering that they thought the work of God was pursuing physical provision such as food or manna. So the work of God was the work God wanted them to do ie faith, not lack of libertarian free will.

Believe Christ!

This is a command, proving libertarian free will.

 

[Kermos]

You need to take an English class! Atoning is an action, something someone does! To be “at one” is an intransitive verb (it used to be called an “state of being verb” when I was growing up) expressing what someone or something is.

The effect of Hilasmos is that we become “at one” with God. Hilasmos itself is the restorative act that appeases the wrath of God, which again, precedes and precipitates forgiveness which then makes us “at one” with God.


Doug

Look again, TibiasDad, because the atoning sacrifice is a noun phrase inside of Holy Spirit inspired "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2.

Christ's atonement is the payment that causes a person to be "at one" with God.

To be "at one" with God is to be forgiven.

 

[Kermos]

But she could because of the atonement. Atonement doesn’t mean I will be saved, it means I can be saved!

Atonement is not salvation, it is the means to being saved, it makes salvation possible but not complete.

And I believe and have demonstrated that scripture, properly exegeted, denies your conclusion. You are reading things into the text that cannot be drawn from it.

Doug

To TibiasDad, @Joe, @Grace ambassador, and @civic (the last three of you because of your agreement/"Like" of Tobias dad's post),

Christ's atonement is not potential! Christ's atonement does not depend on man's works! Christ's atonement is finished! Christ's finished atonement is Christ's work alone!

Your words of "But she could because of the atonement" is the four of you negating a fundamental fact that Nancy of hell never believes in Christ from her first thought to her last thought per the example in the opening post.

Therefore, your Free-willian Philosophy has Christ being the atoning sacrifice for Nancy of hell according to your belief's intrusion against "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

You shifted from atonement to salvation, again, and then you hinge atonement which applies to everyone everywhere in all time according to your Free-willian Philosophy upon people like Nancy, so you believe people like Nancy of hell are atoned by Christ resulting in in Christ's failure atonement.

I believe that Christ atones exclusively for the whole world (1 John 2:2) as in every specific individual that Christ chooses to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God (John 15:16 and John 15:19 and John 3:3), so Lord Jesus has a 100% success rate with His atonement - this is Christ's finished atonement.

You exclaimed "Atonement doesn’t mean I will be saved, it means I can be saved ", so you convey that Christ's atoning sacrifice must be acceptable to you; however, God alone is the one that Christ's atoning sacrificed must be acceptable.

 

[Kampioen]

To TibiasDad, @Joe, @Grace ambassador, and @civic (the last three of you because of your agreement/"Like" of Tobias dad's post),

Christ's atonement is not potential! Christ's atonement does not depend on man's works! Christ's atonement is finished! Christ's finished atonement is Christ's work alone!

Your words of "But she could because of the atonement" is the four of you negating a fundamental fact that Nancy of hell never believes in Christ from her first thought to her last thought per the example in the opening post.

Therefore, your Free-willian Philosophy has Christ being the atoning sacrifice for Nancy of hell according to your belief's intrusion against "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

You shifted from atonement to salvation, again, and then you hinge atonement which applies to everyone everywhere in all time according to your Free-willian Philosophy upon people like Nancy, so you believe people like Nancy of hell are atoned by Christ resulting in in Christ's failure atonement.

I believe that Christ atones exclusively for the whole world (1 John 2:2) as in every specific individual that Christ chooses to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God (John 15:16 and John 15:19 and John 3:3), so Lord Jesus has a 100% success rate with His atonement - this is Christ's finished atonement.

You exclaimed "Atonement doesn’t mean I will be saved, it means I can be saved ", so you convey that Christ's atoning sacrifice must be acceptable to you; however, God alone is the one that Christ's atoning sacrificed must be acceptable.

Where you have God fail is God has no other libertarian choice but to send particular people to hell. You deny libertarian ree will.

But the atonement/forgiveness is sufficient for all universally. It is finished. But God is not particular as to who libertarianly chooses to be atoned. So He doesn't fail.

God wants all to be saved and it could be said that God fails to that extent. But that is not the same as God's implementation. God prefers libertarian free will over keeping people out of hell. That is God's prerogative. We can't do anything about it. So again He doesn't fail.

We can't flap our arms and fly to heaven. It is not of works. But our choice ie faith, if you want to call it works, to let God do it is an exception. God is not a man that He should lie. But Jesus is a man that didn't lie. That is an exception. Libertarian faith is an God's exception.

 

[civic]

Where you have God fail is God has no other libertarian choice but to send particular people to hell. You deny libertarian ree will.

But the atonement/forgiveness is sufficient for all universally. It is finished. But God is not particular as to who libertarianly chooses to be atoned. So He doesn't fail.

God wants all to be saved and it could be said that God fails to that extent. But that is not the same as God's implementation. God prefers libertarian free will over keeping people out of hell. That is God's prerogative. We can't do anything about it. So again He doesn't fail.

We can't flap our arms and fly to heaven. It is not of works. But our choice ie faith, if you want to call it works, to let God do it is an exception. God is not a man that He should lie. But Jesus is a man that didn't lie. That is an exception. Libertarian faith is a God's exception.

Amen brother

 

[Joe]

Therefore, your Free-willian Philosophy

Until you realize your insulting a person's understanding of salvation is of your own fleshly self, me and you have nothing to discuss.

God Bless

 

[civic]

Until you realize your insulting a person's understanding of salvation is of your own fleshly self, me and you have nothing to discuss.

God Bless

Ditto

 

[TibiasDad]

Look again, TibiasDad, because the atoning sacrifice is a noun phrase inside of Holy Spirit inspired "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2.

Christ's atonement is the payment that causes a person to be "at one" with God.

To be "at one" with God is to be forgiven.

But again, atonement is not forgiveness. Atonement makes forgiveness possible by giving God the means to “not count peoples sins against them”. Forgiveness does not occur until repentance is made for the sins committed.

Acts 2:38“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Christ's atonement is not potential! Christ's atonement does not depend on man's works! Christ's atonement is finished! Christ's finished atonement is Christ's work alone!

Christ atonement is complete in that “…from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:16-19)

Atonement makes forgiveness possible, it does not make forgiveness finished! Atonement releases God from the necessity of wrath against us. That was the specific purpose and goal of the atonement: to reconcile the world to God!


Doug

 

[Kermos]

You have God angry at His own fault. And He can't help it because He has no other existing libertarian choice than to predetermine us. You make God a failure.

God caused me to show you in Scripture where your belief of "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (italicized portion is from you as recorded in post #27) intrudes against "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2) resulting in Christ's failure atonement.

Now, considering your first paragraph, your own Free-willian Philosophy has God creating everyone which means that you believe "You have God angry at His own fault".

Those in hell were atoned for in as far as their sins were included in the atonement but doesn't mean already forgiven. Otherwise people wouldn't be dead in sin for years before getting saved if at all. That's where you make the atonement/God a failure.

Of God's chosen persons, the Holy Spirit reveals through Peter "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

Christ's offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party, God, for incapable man (italicized portion is from Strong's Greek: 2434. ἱλασμός (hilasmos) -- Propitiation, Atoning Sacrifice on BibleHub.com) makes man forgiven upon God birthing man anew with belief in Christ inside of people chosen by God (John 3:3; John 6:29; John 15:16; John 15:19), so God is patient and always succeeds with Christ's finished atonement! Christ atoned not for people in hell.

But you say "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too", so you preach Christ's failure offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party, God, for incapable man (italicized portion is from Strong's Greek: 2434. ἱλασμός (hilasmos) -- Propitiation, Atoning Sacrifice on BibleHub.com).

But like I said, God prefers libertarian free will over keeping people out of hell. So the option of failure is His preference. Not like He couldn't help it. He could ensure more people to heaven if He wanted, and maybe has.

No Word of God states man was imparted a free-will, so you are fabricating free-will.

No Word of God states God has a free-will, so you are fabricating free-will for God, and by your so doing, your Free-willian Philosophy results in the implication that a being capable of enslaving God exists because you believe that God's free-will must be free from another greater being due to the meaning of free.

You're the one who has Christ failing, leaving people dead in sin for years before finally getting saved, despite having already died for sins.

You are working from a sovereignty of man-centric philosophy not understanding the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

When a person is born anew by God (John 3:3), then God's new creation is covered by Christ's finished atonement.

The years of dead in sin, to which you refer, are passed away as part of the old man (2 Corinthians 5:17).

See, the new is forgiven right away.

Paul could have refused. But if Paul would have refused, God would either have cajoled him to do it anyway or chosen someone else. But God was going to see to it that His plan got fulfilled, as with Moses, Jonah and Esther, which will be shown later below.

Holy Spirit inspired Paul wrote "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10) without any mention that "Paul could have refused", so your "Paul could have refused" are your thoughts, not God's (Isaiah 55:9).

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

^Jesus was convincing this man to want the new birth while he was still dead in sin.

Kampioen, notice the words came to at the beginning of John chapter 3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” (John 3:1-2).

Kampioen, notice the words comes to at the conclusion of the dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

Kampioen, notice that Nicodemus' coming to Christ was “having been worked in God” (John 3:21), and no Scripture states that "Jesus was convincing this man to want the new birth while he was still dead in sin", so you contrived a non-scriptural thought.

As further proof of your error, Jesus expands on Nicodemus' statement "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him" (John 1:2).

The Word of God explains that for Nicodemus to know the Truth (John 14:6) which Nicodemus expressed has a requirement "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3), so your "Jesus was convincing this man to want the new birth while he was still dead in sin" is out of accord with the Word of God.

Acts 16:30 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

^This man wanted the new birth ie salvation but didn't know how, and may never get saved if somebody doesn't tell him how.

The jailer did not ask "Sirs, what must I do to achieve the new birth", so you convey anti-truth.

The jailer did ask "Sirs, what must I do to be saved" (Acts 16:30), and very question of the jailer's was “having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

Your preaching of "This man wanted the new birth ie salvation but didn't know how, and may never get saved if somebody doesn't tell him how" is you not understanding the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

John 15:16 (KJV) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

^Jonah was chosen yet refused God's calling, so God later roughed him up to convince him. ... And ...

Jonah accomplished that which God chose for Jonah to do because God caused Jonah to go exactly the opposite direction that Jonah tried to go. Nothing in the Book of Jonah says that "God later roughed him up to convince him" since the word "convince" occurs not in the Book of Jonah.

Jesus says something about Jonah being a sign:

​

An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.​

(Matthew 12:39-41)​

​

... Moses was chosen but refused to speak for God, so God got angry and instead chose Aaron to be Moses' spokesman. ...

No free-will there.

Paul just libertarianly happened to choose what God said in the first place. Foreknown of course.

Your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) replaced man's free-will for the Holy Spirit working in Paul when Paul wrote "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10).

God chose Esther, but if she refused, God would have chosen someone else. ...

Esther 4:14 (KJV) For ...

... **if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place;** ...

but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and ...

... **who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?**

Nothing here states that Esther free-will chose the Lord!

In the Book of Esther, we find Ahasuerus, king of the Medes and the Persians, as a remote picture of King Jesus. Ahasuerus' burning anger against those that do not obey the command of king, in this case, the king's wife as evidenced by her being cast out (Esther 1:15). All people that entered the inner court without being summoned by the king would be executed, unless the king holds out his scepter (Esther 4:11). The king punishes people that oppose him as well as people that oppose his loved ones (Esther 7:9). Also, we find a picture of angels (messengers) in the eunuchs, that the eunuchs humbly go in and out of the presence of the king; as an aside, the eunuchs were the means that people could request an audience with the king.

You believe that you can enter King Jesus Christ's inner court according to your own power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

Salvation is the act of God: "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." (Ezekiel 36:26).

Salvation is the act of God: "I will rejoice greatly in the Lord, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels." (Isaiah 61:10).

1 John 2:2 (KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

^This means He can now proceed to forgive sins, not that people are already limitedly prepicked and already forgiven.

Your word "This means He can now proceed to forgive sins, not that people are already limitedly prepicked and already forgiven" nullifies that the atoning sacrifice is complete for the whole world as per "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

Jesus was countering that they thought the work of God was pursuing physical provision such as food or manna. So the work of God was the work God wanted them to do ie faith, not lack of libertarian free will.

Your words "So the work of God was the work God wanted them to do ie faith, not lack of libertarian free will" conveyance contrasts starkly against the Word of God as demonstrated in the following table:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of John
God wanting you to free-will choose to believe in Him whom He has sent is the work of God. (Kampioen 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. (John 6:29)

The consequence of your conveyance is your adulteration of the precious Holy Word of God.

This is a command, proving libertarian free will.

The command does not convey ability thus proving that God working inside of man because obedience is a fruit of the Holy Spirit of the Living God:

​

Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit​

(1 Peter 1:22 )​

​

No free-will for man. Your sovereignty of man is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!

Believe Christ!

 

[Kermos]

Until you realize your insulting a person's understanding of salvation is of your own fleshly self, me and you have nothing to discuss.

God Bless

You attributed to my flesh all of the following Word of God cited in the post to which you replied:

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(John 3:3).

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16).

I chose you out of the world
(John 15:19, includes salvation and atonement).
​

You insulted Lord Jesus Christ with your attribution.

You exclaimed by proxy "Atonement doesn’t mean I will be saved, it means I can be saved " (proof post #48), so you convey that Christ's atoning sacrifice must be acceptable to you; however, God alone is the one that Christ's atoning sacrificed must be acceptable.

 

[Kermos]

But again, atonement is not forgiveness. Atonement makes forgiveness possible by giving God the means to “not count peoples sins against them”. Forgiveness does not occur until repentance is made for the sins committed.

Acts 2:38“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Doug

You cling to the wrong of your illegal conversion of the noun phrase the atoning sacrifice by calling atonement a verb, and now you compound your bad by your belief that "atonement is not forgiveness". The atoning sacrifice by Christ shedding His Blood on the cross absolutely results in forgiveness without exception for the Holy Spirit reveals to us Christians "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Hebrews 9:22) and "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10), so your "atonement is not forgiveness" is not according to "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

We children of God repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25), and the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18), so clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward).

Christ's atonement is the payment that causes a person to be "at one" with God, and to be "at one" (reconciled) with God is to be forgiven of sin.

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

 

[TibiasDad]

You cling to the wrong of your illegal conversion of the noun phrase the atoning sacrifice by calling atonement a verb,

I believe that “the atoning sacrifice” is a gerund (note the “ing” ending), a verb acting as a noun. To atone, is something that one does for another, thus it is a verb. The atonement is an event, and thus a noun.

and now you compound your bad

Your saying it is “a bad” does not mean you are right!

by your belief that "atonement is not forgiveness".

The atonement prepares us, sets the stage for forgiveness by allowing God to not count men sins against them. Scripturally, atonement come first, then conviction of sin, confession/repentance of sin, and then forgiveness of sin.

The atoning sacrifice by Christ shedding His Blood on the cross absolutely results in forgiveness without exception for the Holy Spirit reveals to us Christians "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Hebrews 9:22) and "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10),

Of course there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, this simply means the shedding of blood necessarily precedes forgiveness. And none who are reconciled were reconciled without the death of his son.

so your "atonement is not forgiveness" is not according to "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

The whole world is atoned for, but the whole world is not saved. Forgiveness is available to anyone because of the atonement. All murderers , adulterers and otherwise sinners can be saved! (Save for the unpardonable sin.) That is the “good news”!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Christ's atonement is the payment that causes a person to be "at one" with God, and to be "at one" (reconciled) with God is to be forgiven of sin.

You conveniently leave out confession and repentance from your equation. They have to happen before forgiveness can happen. The cause of reconciliation is the whole process in order: atonement, God not counting men’s sins against them, conviction of sin, confess and repentance of sin, forgiveness of those sins, and the Holy Spirit entering the heart of man making him spiritually alive and one with God. That is the logical order according to Scripture.


Doug

 

[Kermos]

I believe that “the atoning sacrifice” is a gerund (note the “ing” ending), a verb acting as a noun. To atone, is something that one does for another, thus it is a verb. The atonement is an event, and thus a noun.

The fascinating thing is the nouns propitiation and atonement are synonymous, and the gerund phrase the atoning sacrifice is a noun phrase, and the noun "atonement" defines as an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party (italicized portion is from Strong's Greek: 2434. ἱλασμός (hilasmos) -- Propitiation, Atoning Sacrifice from BibleHub.com), so the word "sacrifice" is repetitive, so the whole noun phrase the atoning sacrifice can be replaced by the word atonement in the Holy Spirit inspired "He is the offering to satisfy an angry, offended party sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2). The word "sacrifice" may be dropped as shown in the next paragraph.

Now, a noun alone resides for Christ's finished atonement in "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

No matter how you try to undo the Holy Spirit inspired words, you fail.

Your saying it is “a bad” does not mean you are right!

Your redefinition of atonement in 1 John 2:2 to eliminate forgiveness out of the atonement is bad for you wrote "atonement is not forgiveness" (proof post #57) because atonement includes appease/satisfy thus forgiveness.

Forgiveness is included in "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

The atonement prepares us, sets the stage for forgiveness by allowing God to not count men sins against them. Scripturally, atonement come first, then conviction of sin, confession/repentance of sin, and then forgiveness of sin.


Of course there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, this simply means the shedding of blood necessarily precedes forgiveness. And none who are reconciled were reconciled without the death of his son.

The whole world is atoned for, but the whole world is not saved. Forgiveness is available to anyone because of the atonement. All murderers , adulterers and otherwise sinners can be saved! (Save for the unpardonable sin.) That is the “good news”!

Doug

Again, you replaced atonement with salvation to argue from the perspective of salvation instead of atonement, just look at your confused "The whole world is atoned for, but the whole world is not saved".

Holy Spirit inspired John did not limit "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

You limited, John limited not.

Oddly enough, you argued for limited atonement!

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).