Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[mikesw]

Trinitarians can't quote where the Bible says anything about their three person god, but Unitarians can quote explicit, direct, statements the one person God.

God is a singular person...

Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD, and there is no other;
there is no God but Me.
I will equip you for battle,
though you have not known Me,

no one said there are separate Lords. We know Jesus is Lord. Oops. I don't seem to speak the doctrine of unitarians here.

who created alone...

Indeed there are no other gods that created all things. But John 1 shows all things were created by means of the Word's participation.

Isaiah 44
24Thus says the LORD,
your Redeemer who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who by Myself spread out the earth,

then Jesus revealed the Father is alone the true God....

So you are saying Jesus is a fraud -- a fake claim to having preexistence as the Word.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Oops. You forgot John 17:5 about the preexistence of Jesus. You keep making that mistake.

 

[Runningman]

no one said there are separate Lords. We know Jesus is Lord. Oops. I don't seem to speak the doctrine of unitarians here.


Indeed there are no other gods that created all things. But John 1 shows all things were created by means of the Word's participation.

So you are saying Jesus is a fraud -- a fake claim to having preexistence as the Word.

Oops. You forgot John 17:5 about the preexistence of Jesus. You keep making that mistake.

This reads like sheer panic, accusations, and gas lighting. You have completely ignored Scripture about God being one person known as the Father who created alone and seemingly feverishly invented a laundry list of accusations. As you are well aware, keep the false accusations coming. I really don't mind and I never even dignify them with a response.

Stick to the scripture. Be a man and show where anyone talked about your god the same way they talked about my God.

 

[mikesw]

This reads like sheer panic, accusations, and gas lighting. You have completely ignored Scripture about God being one person known as the Father who created alone and seemingly feverishly invented a laundry list of accusations. As you are well aware, keep the false accusations coming. I really don't mind and I never even dignify them with a response.

Stick to the scripture. Be a man and show where anyone talked about your god the same way they talked about my God.

worse than merely the claims you are pushing, you reject the testimony of Jesus as the incarnation of the Word who was God and was with God. Those two phrases used together show his preexistence as deity with 100% certainty. I would follow scripture before I follow your beliefs. The question never has been whether the Father is God. The question is whether Jesus also is one with the Father because he came out of deity.

 

[Peterlag]

Many Trinitarians misunderstand me.

I'm not asking what you think. I'm asking to show me where in the Bible it says why God would come to the Earth as a man. In other words, what did that accomplish? Trinitarians say because only God could redeem us. And therein lies the misunderstanding because I'm looking for a verse that says God came to the Earth to redeem us and I can't find a Bible verse like that.

Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

 

[Runningman]

worse than merely the claims you are pushing, you reject the testimony of Jesus as the incarnation of the Word who was God and was with God. Those two phrases used together show his preexistence as deity with 100% certainty. I would follow scripture before I follow your beliefs. The question never has been whether the Father is God. The question is whether Jesus also is one with the Father because he came out of deity.

Yeah, I got it now. You disregard everything that Bible says about the Father's exclusive deity, everything about Him being God alone who created alone, and run back to John 1 as if it changes anything.

What I would recommend to you, if it makes it easier, is follow the beliefs of Jesus. I am not asking anyone to follow me nor have I ever. I am simply showing you what Jesus taught about his God, what his beliefs and practices are, and asking you to follow him. Let's begin with the trinity. Jesus never mentioned his God is a trinity, never mentioned anyone's god is a trinity, etc. Do you want to believe what Jesus believes?

 

[Peterlag]

Trinitarians are not answering the question as to why God would come to the Earth as a man. In other words, what did that accomplish? I'm getting the following instead...

• It's there.
• It's a mystery.
• You need to be born again to see it.
• God did not mean for us to understand.
• You need to learn Greek and Hebrew to see it.
• Humans cannot understand the things of God.
• It's hidden because God had to keep it a secret.
• You have to find all the pieces... hints and clues.
• You need to ask the Holy Spirit to show it to you.

Trinitarians say because only God could redeem us. But Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

 

[dwight92070]

Although Trinity is the most important doctrine within most of Christendom's 41,000 denominations, Trinitarians ignore the following facts:

1. There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible in support of the dogma of a 3-in-1 god, in which there are three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) that are co-equal and co-eternal.

2. Neither Jesus Christ nor his disciples of the 1st century AD promoted the teaching that there are three persons within a godhead, all of whom are co-equal and co-eternal.

3. Trinity did not become official Christian teaching until the 4th century AD, some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene and returned to heavenly life, and some 300 years after the last book of the Bible was written.

It would surprise some that there were trinity gods throughout the pagan world--for centuries before the idea of a 3-in-1 god was adopted by Christendom. Below are four such examples:

A. In the 2nd century BCE (two centuries before Jesus Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. In the 2nd century B.C.E., Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.


D. Even the Hindus in India have their own trinity of gods, as follows: (1) Brahma, (2) Vishnu, and (3) Shiva.



QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible?


2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality) and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?


3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one." 1 John 5:7
"God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16
Wives are to be subservient to their husbands. Does that mean that they are not equal?
The body of Jesus is what was "begotten". It DID have a beginning in Mary's womb. The Spirit of Jesus, the Word of God, had no beginning and no end.
Just because Roman emperors enforced it doesn't mean that it was false. Yes, it was a sin on the part of the emperors, but the Trinity truth is not the cause of their sin.
The Trinity concept, not the title, was around ever since Jesus came on the scene. It was not suddenly invented in the 300's A.D.

By the way, the New World Translation is a fraud, so I wouldn't be pointing the finger at the Trinity truth, if I were you.

 

[mikesw]

Yeah, I got it now. You disregard everything that Bible says about the Father's exclusive deity, everything about Him being God alone who created alone, and run back to John 1 as if it changes anything.

What I would recommend to you, if it makes it easier, is follow the beliefs of Jesus. I am not asking anyone to follow me nor have I ever. I am simply showing you what Jesus taught about his God, what his beliefs and practices are, and asking you to follow him. Let's begin with the trinity. Jesus never mentioned his God is a trinity, never mentioned anyone's god is a trinity, etc. Do you want to believe what Jesus believes?

I do not follow bad doctrine from unitarians to discover what Jesus believes. You only address the points made by Jesus while he walked on earth and spoke from man to men. You even miss where he shares with them his preexistence--which they had not been doctrinally or culturally ready to understand when first shared. Then certainly, the issue of the Triune God could not be expressed by Jesus very clearly since he would have to first share him as the preexistent One involved in creation before becoming flesh while having the name Jesus. Please remember these passages.

 

[Runningman]

I do not follow bad doctrine from unitarians to discover what Jesus believes. You only address the points made by Jesus while he walked on earth and spoke from man to men. You even miss where he shares with them his preexistence--which they had not been doctrinally or culturally ready to understand when first shared. Then certainly, the issue of the Triune God could not be expressed by Jesus very clearly since he would have to first share him as the preexistent One involved in creation before becoming flesh while having the name Jesus. Please remember these passages.

No one ever talked about Jesus pre-existing or incarnating. This shows that the earliest beliefs of the people who were closest to Jesus didn't see his statements like what he said in John 17:5 as something that would indicate a literal pre-existence. If Jesus literally pre-existed, and his closest followers believed that, then someone who is "God incarnate" who pre-existed his birth is noteworthy, worth mentioning repeatedly, not something worth glossing over or treating as secondary. Yet the entire Bible doesn't mention what you're saying even one time.

To the contrary, here is how everyone remembered Jesus:

Right off the bat Peter went around telling everyone Jesus is a man approved by God, not God, after Jesus was taken:

Acts 2
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

The thing you probably will resent Peter for is that he said nothing that would make him an ally of a trinitarian. Peter just doesn't stop talking about how Jesus isn't God:

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

There are dozens of more examples like this if you are interested. If I can get you to even accept one verse that I will work with you, but your narrative and beliefs don't seem to be anything that Christians shared. So that's why it difficult to take anything you say seriously.

 

[mikesw]

No one ever talked about Jesus pre-existing or incarnating. This shows that the earliest beliefs of the people who were closest to Jesus didn't see his statements like what he said in John 17:5 as something that would indicate a literal pre-existence. If Jesus literally pre-existed, and his closest followers believed that, then someone who is "God incarnate" who pre-existed his birth is noteworthy, worth mentioning repeatedly, not something worth glossing over or treating as secondary. Yet the entire Bible doesn't mention what you're saying even one time.

To the contrary, here is how everyone remembered Jesus:

Right off the bat Peter went around telling everyone Jesus is a man approved by God, not God, after Jesus was taken:

Acts 2
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

The thing you probably will resent Peter for is that he said nothing that would make him an ally of a trinitarian. Peter just doesn't stop talking about how Jesus isn't God:

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

There are dozens of more examples like this if you are interested. If I can get you to even accept one verse that I will work with you, but your narrative and beliefs don't seem to be anything that Christians shared. So that's why it difficult to take anything you say seriously.

you really miss the whole situation of the gospels and what they convey. The gospels testify to what Jesus did and said while among the people. The gospels do add much commentary to the encounters between Jesus and the Jews. You thus add your own requirements to the objectives of the synoptic gospels. Then, of course, you deny the emphasis on the preexistence and the incarnation of the One allegorically designated as the Word in John 1.

You definitely have a bias about speaking about the humanity of Jesus while denying his divine identity.

 

[Runningman]

you really miss the whole situation of the gospels and what they convey. The gospels testify to what Jesus did and said while among the people. The gospels do add much commentary to the encounters between Jesus and the Jews. You thus add your own requirements to the objectives of the synoptic gospels. Then, of course, you deny the emphasis on the preexistence and the incarnation of the One allegorically designated as the Word in John 1.

You definitely have a bias about speaking about the humanity of Jesus while denying his divine identity.

Is a man who is certified by God the same person as God? Logically speaking?

For example, if God certified you as a man, it couldn't possibly mean you're God right?

 

[mikesw]

Is a man who is certified by God the same person as God? Logically speaking?

For example, if God certified you as a man, it couldn't possibly mean you're God right?

I guess it is time that I admit that I am not Jesus. The logic that applies to God's one and only Son does not apply to me. Nor is Jesus the same "person" as the Father. Jesus is the Son and the Father is not the Son. Yet, they coexist together as one. Other views require denial of various aspects of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

I guess it is time that I admit that I am not Jesus. The logic that applies to God's one and only Son does not apply to me. Nor is Jesus the same "person" as the Father. Jesus is the Son and the Father is not the Son. Yet, they coexist together as one. Other views require denial of various aspects of scripture.

Oh ok you so confess there is an inconsistency in your logic. Jesus, a man who did the same kind of miracles as the other disciples, is a man certified by God, and so are the other men who performed "miracles, wonders, and signs" and God did it through them. So God doing it through all of those people doesn't mean that Jesus and the disciples are God does it?

 

[mikesw]

Oh ok you so confess there is an inconsistency in your logic. Jesus, a man who did the same kind of miracles as the other disciples, is a man certified by God, and so are the other men who performed "miracles, wonders, and signs" and God did it through them. So God doing it through all of those people doesn't mean that Jesus and the disciples are God does it

You are so easily confused. That is what happens when you deny the preexisting One becoming flesh and known as Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

You are so easily confused. That is what happens when you deny the preexisting One becoming flesh and known as Jesus.

I will take that to mean that Jesus and the disciples are not God. If you had a good comeback you would have said it, but you're stalling, meaning you don't know what to say.

Another question is, if God glorifies His servant, then are His servants God too?

 

[mikesw]

I will take that to mean that Jesus and the disciples are not God. If you had a good comeback you would have said it, but you're stalling, meaning you don't know what to say.

Another question is, if God glorifies His servant, then are His servants God too?

Your maneuvering is very destructive. But you are showing your hand.

 

[Runningman]

Your maneuvering is very destructive. But you are showing your hand.

More stalling rather than facing the truth on your part. God's servants aren't God.

 

[mikesw]

More stalling rather than facing the truth on your part. God's servants aren't God.

Finally you are realizing you are not God? That distinguishes you from who Jesus is.

 

[Runningman]

Finally you are realizing you are not God? That distinguishes you from who Jesus is.

Notice below when John and Peter prayed to God, they referred to Him as the Sovereign Lord and Creator. When they got around to mentioning David and Jesus they just said that they are God's servants. This indicates that apostles John and Peter did not believe Jesus is God, but rather lumped him into the same servant category as others, like king David for example.

In normal logic and reason, a Lord and a servant aren't the same person. God and Jesus are thus not the same person.

Acts 4​

24When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Your servant, our father David:​

​

‘Why do the nations rage​

and the peoples plot in vain?​

26The kings of the earth take their stand​

and the rulers gather together​

against the Lord​

and against His Anointed One.’​

​

27In fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed. 28They carried out what Your hand and will had decided beforehand would happen. 29And now, Lord, consider their threats, and enable Your servants to speak Your word with complete boldness, 30as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”​

Care to explain how what Peter and John said in your own logic and reasoning?

 

[mikesw]

Notice below when John and Peter prayed to God, they referred to Him as the Sovereign Lord and Creator. When they got around to mentioning David and Jesus they just said that they are God's servants. This indicates that apostles John and Peter did not believe Jesus is God, but rather lumped him into the same servant category as others, like king David for example.

In normal logic and reason, a Lord and a servant aren't the same person. God and Jesus are thus not the same person.

Acts 4​

24When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Your servant, our father David:​

​

‘Why do the nations rage​

and the peoples plot in vain?​

26The kings of the earth take their stand​

and the rulers gather together​

against the Lord​

and against His Anointed One.’​

​

27In fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed. 28They carried out what Your hand and will had decided beforehand would happen. 29And now, Lord, consider their threats, and enable Your servants to speak Your word with complete boldness, 30as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”​

Care to explain how what Peter and John said in your own logic and reasoning?

you probably do not realize that Jesus was here as a human, a man. This is perfectly fine to recognize that Jesus served while he was here. Do you have to keep overlooking details like this? the preaching does not have to speak of the deity of Christ since the issue in focus is on the people's repentance.