Calvinism and Love

God is love and everyone does have a chance to be saved. It's that simple John 3:16

That's not what John 3:16 says. There are verses that tell you to believe in order to be saved, but that's not one of them.

God doesn't drag us into the kingdom kicking and screaming to the cross, he gives us the chance to choose him or reject him. If you choose him you're for sure going to be saved, if you reject him the consequences will be disastrous. I thank God he gives us the chance to choose him. The god that you speak of doesn't give you a chance he arbitrarily chooses you or not. That's why there's no love in Calvinism. Because god might not choose anyone in your family. I know that's terrible to think about but it's one of the many downsides of Calvinism.

The problem with the above conclusion is that it assumes God's choice is arbitrary. Just because God doesn't tell us the reason he chooses one person over another (outside of saying God foreknew those he chooses) doesn't mean God's choice is arbitrary.

It is true that God might not choose anyone in my family. If they are not chosen, that saddens me, but I know better than to argue with God, and know that my witnessing and prayer for people to be saved is the most I can do.
 
That's not what John 3:16 says. There are verses that tell you to believe in order to be saved, but that's not one of them.



The problem with the above conclusion is that it assumes God's choice is arbitrary. Just because God doesn't tell us the reason he chooses one person over another (outside of saying God foreknew those he chooses) doesn't mean God's choice is arbitrary.

It is true that God might not choose anyone in my family. If they are not chosen, that saddens me, but I know better than to argue with God, and know that my witnessing and prayer for people to be saved is the most I can do.
I know what John 3:16 says. That is absolutely the worst thing I've ever heard on any Christian forum. You would believe a false doctrine and carry around in your mind the image of your family going to hell rather than believing the truth of the gospel. And just be sad. That's the problem with Calvinism it hardens people's hearts. There is no love in Calvinism for sure.

Don't blame it on Calvinism when you can blame it on the sovereignty of God. That is so disturbing.
 
I know what John 3:16 says. That is absolutely the worst thing I've ever heard on any Christian forum. You would believe a false doctrine and carry around in your mind the image of your family going to hell rather than believing the truth of the gospel. And just be sad. That's the problem with Calvinism it hardens people's hearts. There is no love in Calvinism for sure.

Don't blame it on Calvinism when you can blame it on the sovereignty of God. That is so disturbing.

26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
 
God is love and everyone does have a chance to be saved. It's that simple John 3:16

God doesn't drag us into the kingdom kicking and screaming to the cross, he gives us the chance to choose him or reject him. If you choose him you're for sure going to be saved, if you reject him the consequences will be disastrous. I thank God he gives us the chance to choose him. The god that you speak of doesn't give you a chance he arbitrarily chooses you or not. That's why there's no love in Calvinism. Because god might not choose anyone in your family. I know that's terrible to think about but it's one of the many downsides of Calvinism.

Here's a little reformed history for you.

While Luther saw no way of knowing who were the elect, Calvin had certain approximate and attainable tests. He did not require the experience of the new birth, which is so inward and intangible, though to be sure later Calvinism moved away from him on this point and agonized over the signs of election.

Good luck with your god since you don't even know if you're one of the elect.
Gods Love actually saves them He loves, not give them a chance, Gods Great Love quickened the elect while they were yet dead in sin and walking according to the flesh Eph 2:3-5

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


See that ? Thats Gods Great Love, it saves !!

The god you speak of , his love only gives a chance to get saved.
 
If "God is love" assumes everyone deserves a chance to be saved, then grace is not grace. Grace is unmerited favor, which leaves no room for deserving anything.
The above post shows why there is no love in Calvinism. Tell that one to people when you evangelize. Or when you wonder if your family is part of the elect or not. I know it sad to think about it... your family not being in heaven with you but hey that's Calvinism for you.
 
I know what John 3:16 says. That is absolutely the worst thing I've ever heard on any Christian forum. You would believe a false doctrine and carry around in your mind the image of your family going to hell rather than believing the truth of the gospel. And just be sad. That's the problem with Calvinism it hardens people's hearts. There is no love in Calvinism for sure.

Don't blame it on Calvinism when you can blame it on the sovereignty of God. That is so disturbing.
yes


and there is much harshness because of
the corrupt scroll
 
And that was a unique thing that occurred in scripture and I have demonstrated God does this with certain kings but not all.
Greetings civic~I agree what happened to king Nebuchadnezzar was unique, but his confession afterwards concerning the God who turned him into a beast of the field did perfectly described the sovereignty of God over all~when he said: "he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Amen to the words of this great king, who learned this truth the hard way.
Proverbs 21:1- The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Almighty God has total rule over all men’s hearts, even kings’ hearts. Is the main lesson to learn from this proverbs of Solomon. As easily as He directs rivers back and forth as they move water toward the sea, and as easily as a farmer directs water by channels and sluices for the benefit of his fields, so God turns the hearts of kings any direction He desires to accomplish His holy purposes. Let the LORD be magnified!

Knowing this fact, we should understand He totally controls lesser men and simpler circumstances, so we should trust Him fully and wait for His mercy (Proverbs 16:9; Ruth 2:3; James 4:13-15). He even rules chance events with no regard for statistical probability (Proverbs 16:33). There is no reason for us to worry about a boss or a family member or enemy, for He can easily cause a change in any man’s heart that will entirely alter the situation we may be grieving over.

civic, be thankful the LORD is sovereign over the human heart, because if he had not changed our hearts, we all would be slobbering to a totem pole somewhere (Isaiah 44:9-20). He changed Lydia’s heart to pay close attention to Paul’s preaching (Acts 16:14). Give God the glory, and ask Him to continue to change our hearts (1st Kings 8:58; Psalm 51:10; 119:32,36; 141:4; Isaiah 63:17; Philippians 2:13; 2nd Timothy 2:24-26; Hebrews 13:21).
Ezra 6:22
For seven days they kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread with joy, because the LORD had made them joyful and turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to strengthen their hands in the work on the house of the God of Israel.
Amen!
Is it every king, all kings ? no
Whether Adolph Hitler, President Biden (Trump), or Vladimir Putin, it does not matter – their hearts are all in the hand of the LORD God of heaven, and earth. Btw, so are you and me, lower men, even the mosquito flying very close to you carrying a deadly virus is in the LORD'S hand! If this is not so, then he would not be Almighty God, whose power is unsearchable, past finding out.
 
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The above post shows why there is no love in Calvinism. Tell that one to people when you evangelize. Or when you wonder if your family is part of the elect or not. I know it sad to think about it... your family not being in heaven with you but hey that's Calvinism for you.
You tell me in your own words what is wrong with what the gentleman said~the only thing I see is when he said:

The Rogue Tomato said:
If "God is love" assumes everyone deserves a chance to be saved, then grace is not grace. Grace is unmerited favor which leaves no room for deserving anything.
Grace is actually demerited favor!

When considering grace as favour, we must define it as merited, unmerited, or demerited favour.

Sin has put us way outside God’s favor and under His righteous and terrible wrath upon sinners.

Merited favour would be a reward for good works, so the Catholics and foolish conditionalists.

Unmerited favour would be a gift to a neutral party, so we see the preservation of elect angels.

Demerited favour would be a gift to those deserving judgment, so the blessed truth of the gospel.

True grace is demerited favour without obligation, worth, or conditions. Works are totally excluded.

By God’s definition, grace and works are mutually exclusive by their definition (Rom 11:5-6). If a man works for righteousness before God, even by faith, it is debt and not grace (Rom 4:4-5).

Grace used as an acronym may properly define Biblical grace … God Rewards and Clears Enemies.

Grace = God does not judge and punish the elect as they do deserve, but He does honor and reward them with blessings they do not deserve. This enhanced definition is like we do with justification.

I'll be waiting to hear from you. I have a lot I would like to say to you based on reading your few post.
 
You tell me in your own words what is wrong with what the gentleman said~the only thing I see is when he said:


Grace is actually demerited favor!

When considering grace as favour, we must define it as merited, unmerited, or demerited favour.

Sin has put us way outside God’s favor and under His righteous and terrible wrath upon sinners.

Merited favour would be a reward for good works, so the Catholics and foolish conditionalists.

Unmerited favour would be a gift to a neutral party, so we see the preservation of elect angels.

Demerited favour would be a gift to those deserving judgment, so the blessed truth of the gospel.

True grace is demerited favour without obligation, worth, or conditions. Works are totally excluded.

By God’s definition, grace and works are mutually exclusive by their definition (Rom 11:5-6). If a man works for righteousness before God, even by faith, it is debt and not grace (Rom 4:4-5).

Grace used as an acronym may properly define Biblical grace … God Rewards and Clears Enemies.

Grace = God does not judge and punish the elect as they do deserve, but He does honor and reward them with blessings they do not deserve. This enhanced definition is like we do with justification.

I'll be waiting to hear from you. I have a lot I would like to say to you based on reading your few post.
Wait no longer. Please feel free to post whatever you have to say on whatever topic you have to say it on. I stand on any posts that I made in this thread. As for the other poster you mentioned about the interaction between me and him, I stand on that also. It's fine if you don't agree with it or have a different opinion. Because that's what we're doing here sharing our opinions.
 
26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
It’s ironic you quote a verse and don’t understand its meaning. Here let me help you understand the biblical meaning of the verse you quoted.

Miseo in the lexicon , hate means to esteem less, to love less- even many Calvinist theologians agree that is the meaning. The same meaing from Jesus when He said a disciple must hate his own mother, father to come follow Him. Hate there means the exact same thing. You love your mother/father less than you do Jesus- You esteem Jesus more, love Him more.

Why would God bless Esau if He actually hated him ?

An oxymoron once again in your theology, a contradiction.

miseó: to hate

Original Word:
μισέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Definition: to hate
Usage: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.

HELPS Word-studies

3404
miséō – properly, to detest (on a comparativebasis); hence, denounce; to love someone or something less than someone(something) else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another.

Lk 14:26: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate (3404 /miséō, 'love less' than the Lord) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple" (NASU).

[Note the comparative meaning of 3404 (miséō) which centers in moral choice, elevating one value over another.]

to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13 BDAG


BDAG.
② to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13 (Mal 1:2f). Perh. 2 Cl 6:6 (s. 1b). (JDenney, The Word ‘Hate’ in Lk 14:26: ET 21, 1910, 41f; WBleibtreu, Paradoxe Aussprüche Jesu: Theol. Arbeiten aus d. wissensch. Prediger-Verein d. Rheinprovinz, new ser. 20, 24, 15–35; RSockman, The Paradoxes of J. ’36).—ACarr, The Mng. of ‘Hatred’ in the NT: Exp. 6th ser., 12, 1905, 153–60.—DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW.

And here is a Greek Scholar/Teacher Robert Mounce

I loved, but Esau I hated” (Mal 1:2–3). This should not be interpreted to mean that God actually hated Esau. The strong contrast is a Semitic idiom that heightens the comparison by stating it in absolute terms. 17

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995), 198–199.

Berkeley softens the contrast translating, “To Jacob I was drawn, but Esau I repudiated” (the NRSV has “chose” and “rejected”). In discussing the “hatred” of God, Michel comments that it “is not so much an emotion as a rejection in will and deed” (TDNT 4.687).

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995).

Here are more renown Scholars

Esau I hated. I.e., “loved less,” according to an ancient Near Eastern hyperbole. It expresses the lack of gratuitous election of Esau and the Edomites (Idumaeans). See Gen 29:30–31: “he loved Rachel more than Leah …; when the Lord saw that Leah was hated …”; cf. Deut 21:15–17; compare Luke 14:26 (“hate”) with Matt 10:37 (“love more”). There is no hint here of predestination to “grace” or “glory” of an individual; it is an expression of the choice of corporate Israel over corporate Edom.

Joseph A. Fitzmyer S.J., Romans: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary, vol. 33, Anchor Yale Bible (New Haven; London: Yale University Press, 2008), 563.

13. Characteristically Paul backs up his argument with a quotation from Scripture, this one from Malachi 1:2–3: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Two questions are important here: Is Paul referring to nations or individuals? and What is meant by hated? As to the first, we have just seen that the Genesis passage refers primarily to nations and we would expect that to continue here. That this is the case seems clear from what Malachi writes about Esau: “Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals” (Mal. 1:3). Both in Genesis and Malachi the reference is clearly to nations, and we should accept this as Paul’s meaning accordingly.

The meaning of hated is a different kind of problem. There is a difficulty in that Scripture speaks of a love of God for the whole world (John 3:16) and the meaning of “God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16) is surely that God loves, quite irrespective of merit or demerit in the beloved. Specifically he is said to love sinners (Rom. 5:8). It is also true that in Scripture there are cases where “hate” seems clearly to mean “love less” (e.g., Gen. 29:31, 33; Deut. 21:15; Matt. 6:24; Luke 14:26; John 12:25). Many find this an acceptable solution here: God loved Esau (and the nation Edom) less than he loved Jacob (and Israel). But it is perhaps more likely that like Calvin we should understand the expression in the sense “reject” over against “accept”. He explains the passage thus: “I chose Jacob and rejected Esau, induced to this course by my mercy alone, and not by any worthiness in his works.… I had rejected the Edomites.…” This accords with the stress throughout this passage on the thought of election for service. God chose Israel for this role; he did not so choose Edom. Leon Morris, The Epistle to the Romans,

hope this helps !!!
 
Wait no longer. Please feel free to post whatever you have to say on whatever topic you have to say it on. I stand on any posts that I made in this thread. As for the other poster you mentioned about the interaction between me and him, I stand on that also. It's fine if you don't agree with it or have a different opinion. Because that's what we're doing here sharing our opinions.
So, with you I ask you to give us your understanding considering grace as favour~how sinners, who are at enmity against God are born again.

Is grace merited to such sinners, or, unmerited, or demerited favour? And why?

Demerited favour would be a gift to those deserving judgment, so the blessed truth of the gospel.
Do you agree?
 
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You tell me in your own words what is wrong with what the gentleman said~the only thing I see is when he said:


Grace is actually demerited favor!

When considering grace as favour, we must define it as merited, unmerited, or demerited favour.

Sin has put us way outside God’s favor and under His righteous and terrible wrath upon sinners.

Merited favour would be a reward for good works, so the Catholics and foolish conditionalists.

Unmerited favour would be a gift to a neutral party, so we see the preservation of elect angels.

Demerited favour would be a gift to those deserving judgment, so the blessed truth of the gospel.

True grace is demerited favour without obligation, worth, or conditions. Works are totally excluded.

By God’s definition, grace and works are mutually exclusive by their definition (Rom 11:5-6). If a man works for righteousness before God, even by faith, it is debt and not grace (Rom 4:4-5).

Grace used as an acronym may properly define Biblical grace … God Rewards and Clears Enemies.

Grace = God does not judge and punish the elect as they do deserve, but He does honor and reward them with blessings they do not deserve. This enhanced definition is like we do with justification.

I'll be waiting to hear from you. I have a lot I would like to say to you based on reading your few post.
Excellent point.
 
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