Axe and two 38's
- Thread starter Weyoun
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dwight92070
Active Member
We must remember that James 2 is written to believers - as is the whole Bible. Also all the persons mentioned in verses 14-26 were believers, i.e. Christians in the New Testament and godly men or godly women in the Old Testament. Abraham had been a believer in God approximately 10 years when God spoke to him the words in verse 23. He had been a believer in God for close to 45 years, when God asked him to sacrifice his son - assuming Isaac is about 20 years old. Rahab had been a harlot, but when the spies came to her, it appears that she had already decided to believe in God and follow him - which is why she invited the spies in to hide there. So she too was righteous.
Verse 14 - 17 James is basically saying: "If you're a Christian, i.e. you say you have faith, then you should bear fruit showing that you are saved." That is, as a believer, you should produce works that display that you are righteous. These are not works to get saved - they were already saved. These are works that naturally flow from Christians hearts. NO works are needed to get salvation, but after one is saved, he should be naturally producing good works that show his righteousness, which should be always on display. Paul said:
"... so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. and "Our people must also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful." Titus 3:8,14
Jesus gave a similar teaching in John 15. As believers we are to abide in Him, so that we will bear much fruit, that is, do good works that display our righteousness in Christ. If we don't do good works, then we're either saved, but disobedient, or we're not saved at all.
In verse 23 "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." This is a quote from Gen.15:6, when Abraham had already believed in and followed God approximately 10 years. So verse 23 is NOT a description of when he was saved - that had already taken place some 10 years earlier.
verse 24 - "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." This does NOT refer to the time of Abraham's salvation. Remember that happened about 10 years earlier. So what is James saying?
Well the word "justified" in the Greek means "to show to be righteous" or "to declare righteous". So Abraham was shown to be righteous by his works, which was the natural outflow of his faith, which he originally had close to ten years earlier.
James is saying that because Abraham had faith, righteous works were displayed by him even ten years after he was saved. And even 45 years after he was saved, he was still producing good works, i.e. obeying God in offering up his son Isaac.
So it was also with Rahab. We don't know how long she was saved, but there can be no doubt that she was saved. Because James says that she too was justified - shown to be righteous by her works of hiding the spies that were sent by Joshua and keeping them alive.
In conclusion the statement: "Man is justified by works and not by faith alone." does not refer to salvation - it didn't with both Abraham and Rahab. It refers to believers in God letting their light shine by doing good works, not to get saved, but because they are saved.
Being justified IS being saved. Faith alone doesn’t get it, DEMONSTRATED faith DOES.
Paul talking about works of the Law does not justify (save) us in Galations 2. Demonstrated faith in James 2 is not works of the law, but faith IN ACTION. Faith required action or it is dead, for even believers. Big difference. Death faith is not good.
The word justified in the James 2 passage is the same Greek word in Romans 2:24 below.
| 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, |
| 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, James saying this to Jewish believers would be useful in PROPER evangelizing the unsaved ones they encounter, yes? Afterall that’s what congregations of believer are all about right? |
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@Jaime
Jaime, You said:
I was speaking to some young men this past Sunday consider approaching the word of God with one hand closed tightly holding what we have learned, or thought to be the truth, with our other hand wide open when read the scriptures and hearing other sincere children of God teaching, so that if they have a truth I do not see, then maybe with my open hand I will be able to see what they are laboring to teach. Brother, "both hands closed tightly syndrome" is the greatest hindrance from anyone receiving the truth on a given doctrine under consideration. I firmly beleive in this scripture:
I also practice humility and I'm willing for any saints to perfect my understanding as Apollos' understanding was helped, and he humbled himself to be taught by Aquila and priscilla, close friends of Paul.
This mighty teacher of the word of God was a little off on the doctrine of water baptism (of all doctrines) so, a husband and wife took him and graciously expounded the word of God more perfectly to him. Christ's baptism superseded John's in that post resurrection of Christ ~ all men now are baptised into the faith and religion of Jesus Christ, in his name, identifying themselves with the religion of the risen Christ. When I say in his name, I'm not saying that a certain prescribed formula must be said before it becomes scriptural. We would say: We baptized you in the name of..... "the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, even in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." That way all bases are covered, more so for the gainsayers and conscience of the one being baptized. There are no regenerating power in water baptism in any sense whatsoever, or the manner in which a person uses words to do baptized converts. The word of God would expose anyone believing that there are, to be teaching a false doctrine.
I'm not sure how much time I have to put into this discussions this week, but will contribute when time permits me to do so. I enjoy these discussions and truly think they are helpful for someone, known only unto God, not us; so, I'm more than willing to spend my time posting, trusting some little lamb is out there seeking truth, seeking some help on such doctrines, as I was over fifty some years ago on this very subject. The Lord was indeed very gracious unto me, so it is my duty to do the same for others.
Jaime, You said:
Jaime, more importantly is to take all of those scriptures on this subject, and rightly divide them and give them their God intended sense, that alone will lead us into the truth of them, and when we do this honestly before God, (not to say anyone here is being purposely dishonest) then and only then will the truth be seen. You and @dwight92070 are using scriptures and applying the understanding that you have been taught; @Doug Brents I truly do not know enough on of him, but, all men are married to their biased opinions to a certain degree, if not married to them, they closely guard them as something special. I know, I was there once.
I was speaking to some young men this past Sunday consider approaching the word of God with one hand closed tightly holding what we have learned, or thought to be the truth, with our other hand wide open when read the scriptures and hearing other sincere children of God teaching, so that if they have a truth I do not see, then maybe with my open hand I will be able to see what they are laboring to teach. Brother, "both hands closed tightly syndrome" is the greatest hindrance from anyone receiving the truth on a given doctrine under consideration. I firmly beleive in this scripture:
Titus 1:9
“Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.”I also practice humility and I'm willing for any saints to perfect my understanding as Apollos' understanding was helped, and he humbled himself to be taught by Aquila and priscilla, close friends of Paul.
Acts 18:24-26
“And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.”This mighty teacher of the word of God was a little off on the doctrine of water baptism (of all doctrines) so, a husband and wife took him and graciously expounded the word of God more perfectly to him. Christ's baptism superseded John's in that post resurrection of Christ ~ all men now are baptised into the faith and religion of Jesus Christ, in his name, identifying themselves with the religion of the risen Christ. When I say in his name, I'm not saying that a certain prescribed formula must be said before it becomes scriptural. We would say: We baptized you in the name of..... "the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, even in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." That way all bases are covered, more so for the gainsayers and conscience of the one being baptized. There are no regenerating power in water baptism in any sense whatsoever, or the manner in which a person uses words to do baptized converts. The word of God would expose anyone believing that there are, to be teaching a false doctrine.
@dwight92070, you add your works ~ just in a different manner as far as being born again, you teach that a man must do certain works (do spiritual acts, such as having faith, repent, etc.) before he can be born of the Spirit, yet truly what can a person do who is at enmity against God to help himself to be born again, pray tell me?
Doug Brents
Active Member
We are already condemned, baptism is the only way into the blood of Christ which is the only way into salvation.
The water here is essential for salvation, and can only mean baptism. It cannot mean the water of pregnancy, because it is the water of REbirth, not natural birth.
There is no separation between baptism and repentance. They both are required to receive forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ananias was speaking the words that God gave him to speak. You claim to believe that all Scripture is given by God, and yet when it disagrees with your preconception you think you can change what Scripture says to make it fit what you want it to say. It doesn't work that way.
This passage says that it is in baptism that we die to sin, in baptism that we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection by the action of the Holy Spirit.
It says nothing of the sort. It says that we are circumcised by the Holy Spirit in our soul in (or possibly after (having been)) baptism.
We are purified by the washing of water through the Word.
It is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ and made children of God.
Again, you redefine the meaning of what Scripture says clearly to make it fit what you believe. "... Baptism now saves you ...." That is a given. It is not up for debate in this passage. The rest of the verse tells us how. Not in the removal of dirt from the flesh; we are not taking a shower, but having the stains of sin removed by the Holy Spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit, and this happens in baptism (not before).
Doug Brents
Active Member
He says that no works can earn salvation, no works can merit salvation, no works can coerce or force God to give us salvation; but he does not say that there is no action, no work, that is necessary to receive salvation.
Rom 10:9-10 is very clear that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord results in receiving salvation from God. This is not an act of merit, but an act of submission. As Luke 17:7-10 tells us, the actions we take are our duty, they have not merit, no profit to God, but are our responsibility and duty to perform. But God has promised that He will give us His gift of salvation if we submit to Him and obey His commands.
Good morning Red. Thanks for your reply. I too believe thst we must rightly divide the word and we all carry the bias of our upbringing in whatever denomination, but the verses I speak of that I assert we mist take cummulatively are specifically the salvational passages. None of us should pick one and latch on to iit exclusively. I shouldn’t be exclusive saying baptism is the only only thing and someone else shouldn’t say it is ONLY confessing with our lips that Jesus is the Christ. The over-arching “saved by grace through faith” covers all of the salvational verses, but it doesn’t nullify the rest of the salvational verses. I will argue until I am blue in the face that saved by grace through faith is the over-archimg concept, but i will also argue those who believe and are baptized shall be saved, AND if we confess with our lips that Jesus is the Christ we will be saved, etc. those verses in their context demand that they be taken cummulatively. It is my firm belief that for us to appropriate God grace through faith, our faith response requires “all of the above”. This bolded part is my best attempt at a summary statement on the subject.
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dwight92070
Active Member
Yes, justified can refer to salvation because when we're saved we are declared righteous. But it also refers to those of us who are long time Christians, as it did to Abraham in James 2 who had been saved about 10 years in Genesis 15:6, where the Scripture says: "Then he believed in the Lord; and He (God) reckoned it to him as righteousness."
Notice James quotes that verse in James 2:23. But that was NOT the point of Abraham's salvation. The Scripture indicates that Abraham was saved at age 75 - Genesis 12:1-4, but in Genesis 15:6 he was around 85, because in the very next chapter -Genesis 16:3, it says he had lived in Canaan 10 years.
Also when Abraham was offering Isaac as a sacrifice, he had to have been around 120 years old - i.e. a long -time believer in God.
Yet James declares in James 2:21: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works (he had already been saved for close to 45 years!) when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
So "justified" here does NOT mean saved. Abraham had been a believer in God since he was 75 years old.
So James 2:24: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." CANNOT refer to salvation, because Abraham was already saved in the two incidents in his life that James records. Rather it refers to the ongoing justification that we, as Christians enjoy until the day we die, or until Jesus comes.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast. For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
So no one is saved by works or by faith plus works. We are saved solely by grace through faith without works.
But after we are saved without works, we are told that we were spiritually created in Christ Jesus (saved) FOR GOOD WORKS.
So "justified" in verse 24 cannot mean "saved". It has to refer to the justification that all believers enjoy throughout their lives.
If you substitute "saved" in verse 24 for the word "justified", here's what you get:
You see that a man is saved by works and not by faith alone. But this is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION to Ephesians 2:8-9, where Paul says that our salvation IS NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS. So we know that "justified" in verse 24 does not and cannot mean "saved".
dwight92070
Active Member
You legalists are not satisfied unless you add works to God's grace and our faith - you add the works of confessing Jesus as Lord and baptism to God's grace and our faith.
Romans 10:9-10 is not an explanation of how to get saved. Rather it is a comparison of a man attempting to be saved by works, under the law vs. someone who is already saved, by faith in Jesus.
The context in Romans 10 is given in verses 1-6. It is a comparison between a man who practices righteousness (i.e. he's WORKING TO GET SAVED) based on law vs. the man who practices righteousness (he's ALREADY SAVED) based on faith.
A man who is already saved, such as I am, confesses Jesus as his Lord, and believes in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Therefore, as a believer, I am justified, i.e. shown to be righteous, just as Abraham and Rahab were in James 2, through my faith in Jesus and good deeds which follow.
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dwight92070
Active Member
If we're discussing getting saved, the choice we have is not confession with our mouth or baptism. The choice is the same choice that Paul made. We're saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That is NOT works. Anything beyond that is false teaching. Just like the Judaizers who said that you can't be saved unless you are circumcised and keep the law, these deceivers are saying "You can't be saved unless you get baptized and confess Jesus as your Lord." The truth is those works FOLLOW AFTER ONE GETS SAVED, NOT BEFORE. They are the ones adding works to how one can be saved, contradicting Ephesians 2:8-9 "not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
A person who is at enmity against God won't even desire to be born again. So we, as believers, pray for him, that he would have his eyes open to his lost state, just like the prodigal son, and that he would come to repentance, It's his choice, God isn't going to make it for him.
Doug Brents
Active Member
I am not a legalist at all, nor am I adding anything to God's grace. Without God's grace, we would not have even a hope of salvation. Just as the widow had no hope of surviving the famine. And when the prophet told her to give him her last piece of bread, that was completely grace. Completely a gift from God through the prophet. But what did he tell her? Give me your last piece of bread, and your flour and oil will last through the whole of the famine, and feed you, your son, and me for that entire time. Did she save herself by taking the action of giving her last piece of bread to the prophet? OR was it God's grace that saved her? It was God's grace. But if she had not given her last piece of bread, would her flour and oil lasted through the famine? NO, it would not have. Her faith in giving her last piece of bread was not the CAUSE of her salvation, but she would not have received salvation (from the famine) without giving it.
For the people to whom Paul is speaking, Rom 10:9-10 is indeed a rehearsal of how they were saved. But there is no comparison in that section. What does the Word of God say? "the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
The Word of faith which Paul (and by extension, everyone else who preaches the true Gospel) is preaching is that the confession of Jesus as Lord and belief that He did indeed die and was raised again RESULTS in receiving salvation. That is indeed a rehearsal of what faith is, and part of what is required to be saved.
The person who is saved through faith is the one who confesses Jesus as Lord. Because the confession of Jesus RESULTS IN being saved. This means that the "being saved" comes AFTER the confession of Jesus. The result can never come before the thing that brings the result. Cause - then the effect. You will NEVER see the effect come before the cause (although that is what you are trying to teach).
Can a person be saved if they are not in Christ?
How, according to Scripture (not according to dwight) does one come to be "in Christ"?
How we accept the free gift is most definitely relevant. No one here is arguing that we are not saved by faith through grace. God prescribed things for us to receive this inarguably free gift, those things are orescribed. by God, they are not just good for man, they are OUR our Faith Response, not a work that merits or esrns any part of the free gift. Our faith response is our submission to Jesus’ Lordship, and our gratitude for HIS faithfulness to the father’s will. We accept or reject the free gift we cannot and do not earn.
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@dwight92070
I'm going to break your post down brother and show you how you are condemning Jaime and Doug, yet you are in the same boat with them and do not see that you are. I'm not judging any of you three as children of wrath, for that's not my call, but God's, yet I think all three of you are zealous and believe the scriptures and share the same respect and love for them, at least it seems to me that you do, yet all three of you are in error. They are in the front part of the boat and you are in the rear, and all three of you are trusting in your works to get you safely to your desire haven, without 100% trusting in the faith and obedience of Christ alone to get you there through the grace of God alone. Please consider:
You said: "If we're discussing getting saved, the choice we have is not confession with our mouth or baptism."
Which I would say, being born again by God, is neither.
You added: "We're saved by grace through faith in Jesus."
Wrong, and against the teaching of the Holy Ghost witness of the truth! We NOT saved by faith in Jesus, but by the faith OF Jesus and his obedience!
You said: "That is NOT works."
It is of work if we have an active part in our salvation from sin and condemnation, pure and simple.
You said: "Anything beyond that is false teaching. Just like the Judaizers who said that you can't be saved unless you are circumcised and keep the law, these deceivers are saying "You can't be saved unless you get baptized and confess Jesus as your Lord." The truth is those works FOLLOW AFTER ONE GETS SAVED, NOT BEFORE."
Which we will add, that if anyone adds any work whereby man has an active part in it becomes a work gospel, including, but not limited to faith on man's part! I would agree 100% that all these things follows begin born of the Spirit, impossible to come before one is born of God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus' faith and obedience alone.
You added:
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
You even added this:
Greetings Dwight along with @Jaime and @Doug Brents,
I'm going to break your post down brother and show you how you are condemning Jaime and Doug, yet you are in the same boat with them and do not see that you are. I'm not judging any of you three as children of wrath, for that's not my call, but God's, yet I think all three of you are zealous and believe the scriptures and share the same respect and love for them, at least it seems to me that you do, yet all three of you are in error. They are in the front part of the boat and you are in the rear, and all three of you are trusting in your works to get you safely to your desire haven, without 100% trusting in the faith and obedience of Christ alone to get you there through the grace of God alone. Please consider:
Using "saved" in the sense in which you are using the word here, I would use born of again, to help with with the discussion, since save/saved/salvation are used by the Spirit in different sense in the scriptures.
You said: "If we're discussing getting saved, the choice we have is not confession with our mouth or baptism."
Which I would say, being born again by God, is neither.
You added: "We're saved by grace through faith in Jesus."
Wrong, and against the teaching of the Holy Ghost witness of the truth! We NOT saved by faith in Jesus, but by the faith OF Jesus and his obedience!
You said: "That is NOT works."
It is of work if we have an active part in our salvation from sin and condemnation, pure and simple.
You said: "Anything beyond that is false teaching. Just like the Judaizers who said that you can't be saved unless you are circumcised and keep the law, these deceivers are saying "You can't be saved unless you get baptized and confess Jesus as your Lord." The truth is those works FOLLOW AFTER ONE GETS SAVED, NOT BEFORE."
Which we will add, that if anyone adds any work whereby man has an active part in it becomes a work gospel, including, but not limited to faith on man's part! I would agree 100% that all these things follows begin born of the Spirit, impossible to come before one is born of God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus' faith and obedience alone.
You added:
@dwight92070 sir, so are you! Please consider and refute if you can, which I know you cannot, or else I would not post this.
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
You even added this:
Amen, 100% correct, so my interpretation above on Ephesian 2:8, is 100% biblical!
So now you are totally denying what you said above! Dwight you are a confused person along with the two men in the front of boat! Selah.
Red, I believe our Spirits are quickened prior to regenerstion. God can and does work his grace in the lives of unregenerate people drawing them to himself. That in my opinion is not regeneration, and that drawing is not irresistable. Man can and does resist sometimes to his detriment. With the 3000, the spirit of their unregenerated hearts and that lead to Godly sorrow, and Godly sorrow leads to repentance and that leads to salvation. The sustaining and help of the gift of the spirit is subsequent to that. The pricking and drawing is just as miraculous and gracious. Peter told the questioning Jews when they asked “what must we do “ He said repent and be baptised FOR or So THAT you receive the gift of the Holy spirit And forgiveness of sin. The pricking was a gift, but not THAT gift. You have some good points but your notion of the definition of “eis” is also badly wrong in my opinion. It does NOT mean here or any other place I know of in scripture “because of” when we consider the Greek meaning of eis in Strong’s Accordance it means UNTO, INTO, TO or TOWARDS. The English phrase because of comes from another Greek word. (See below)
Εξαιτίας
(exaitías) in English means "because of", "due to", "on account of", or "owing to". It is a preposition used to indicate the cause of something.
We have discussed this many times in the past on the other forum. I still love you and consider you a brother.
Εξαιτίας
(exaitías) in English means "because of", "due to", "on account of", or "owing to". It is a preposition used to indicate the cause of something.
We have discussed this many times in the past on the other forum. I still love you and consider you a brother.
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Doug Brents
Active Member
Red, it is both. There is no salvation at all unless Jesus died for our sin and was raised again by the Spirit (Jesus' faith). And His sacrifice is not applied to an individual unless that individual exhibits faith in Jesus through obedience to God's commands. Both His faith (which is the same for all), and our own faith in Him (which is the determining factor since His faith is already proven) are required for our salvation (being born again).
No, it is not.
I am sure you have heard the story of the tightrope walker pushing the wheelbarrow across the Grand Canyon (or Niagara Falls, doesn't matter). Jesus is the tightrope walker, and the only One capable of walking across the Canyon. He has proven that He can cross the Canyon safely, and He will take anyone who wishes to cross the Canyon with Him, but they have to be in the wheelbarrow for Him to take them. He does NOT put people in the wheelbarrow. You have to get in the wheelbarrow yourself. Getting in the wheelbarrow does not save you. Salvation is ONLY on the other side of the Canyon. But you cannot get to the other side of the Canyon unless you get in the wheelbarrow. We get into the wheelbarrow through submission to God's will: confessing Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), Repentance from sin (Acts 3:19), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16).
You are not reading Scripture clearly. Does the effect ever come before the cause? No, it is ALWAYS "cause" then "effect", NEVER "effect" then "cause". While our faith, embodied in repentance, confession, and baptism, are not the source/cause of salvation, they are conditions established by God for the reception of His gift of salvation.
1 Pet 3:21 is clear that baptism must come before salvation is received.
Rom 10:9-10 is clear that belief and confession must come before salvation is received.
Acts 2:38 is clear that repentance and baptism must come before salvation is received.
Your explanation here is in direct contradiction to Scripture. Read Rom 10:13-15.
One cannot be born again unless they call on the name of the Lord.
And one cannot call on the name of the Lord unless they believe the Gospel.
And one cannot believe the Gospel unless they have heard the Gospel.
And one cannot hear the Gospel unless it is preached.
All of these things must come before salvation is received.
In a manner of speaking, yes, we were made to be in Christ (because of God's foreknowledge), but we were not in Christ from birth. In our life, we all sin, and that sin forces us away from God, causing our death to Him, and condemning us to Hell. But when we have heard the Gospel and believed it (Rom 10:13-15), and repented of our sins (Acts 3:19), and confessed Jesus as our Lord (publicly (Matt 10:32) and verbally (Rom 10:9-10)), and been baptized in water in order to have our sins removed by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21), then we receive new life (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14), adoption as sons (and daughters)(Gal 3:26-27), and reunion with God.
civic
Active Member
Here are more from Jesus whom shall we believe ? Him or the doctrines of man ?
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( and nothing else )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( and nothing else )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( and nothing else ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( and nothing else ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
hope this helps !!!
dwight92070
Active Member
You are steeped in the error of Calvinism. Those whom God chose from eternity past are the ones "who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" 1 Peter 1:2
What did He foreknow? He knew which men would freely choose to put their faith in Jesus.
If God predestined Cain to be lost for eternity, then why would He attempt to correct him and restore him, because of his murderous anger? Was He just playing with Cain, knowing that He would be sending him to hell, no matter what He chose to do?
"Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.' "
The answer is obvious. God gave Cain the freedom to choose to do the right thing, which would be to repent of his extreme anger against Abel, and then be willing to offer an acceptable offering to God - or to hold on to his extreme anger and then murder his brother.
We have that same choice today, the same responsibility to master sin and to put our faith in Jesus, but Calvinists are deceiving believers into thinking that we don't. By insisting that the translation be the"faith of Jesus" and not our "faith in Jesus", you deceitfully remove the freedom and the responsibility that all men have to make their own choice and to exercise their own faith that God gave them.
God has given each of us a measure of faith - Romans 12:3, but we must choose what we do with that faith. Do we put our faith in Jesus? God will not predestine us to be saved or lost. He has predestined that all those who choose to put their faith in Jesus will be His elect, His chosen. He also predestined that all those who choose to reject Jesus, who don't put their faith in Jesus, will not be His elect or His chosen.
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dwight92070
Active Member
Every time in the book of Acts where we have someone or even a crowd of people getting baptized, they always believed first.
1. On the day of Pentecost, they first believed, and then they were baptized after that. Acts 2:41
2. The Samaritans believed the good news about the kingdom of God, and after that they were baptized. Acts 8:12
3. Simon himself believed and was baptized after that. Acts 8:13
4. The Ethiopian eunuch believed first, and then when they came to some water, he was baptized. Acts 8:37
5. Saul believed first, then three days later he was baptized. Acts 9:18
6 .Cornelius and his family and friends believed first, and shortly thereafter were baptized. Acts 10:48
7. Lydia and her household believed first, and after that were baptized. Acts 16:14-15
8. The Philippian jailer and his household believed the gospel message first, and then were baptized. Acts 16:31-33
9. Crispus and his household and many of the Corinthians believed in the Lord, and after that they were baptized. Acts 18:8
10. The disciples at Ephesus believed in Jesus, and after that were baptized. Acts 19:4-5
11. I myself believed in Jesus in September of 1970. About 2 weeks later, I was baptized.
With that in mind, notice the amazing parallel between baptism and circumcision.
I'm going to quote Romans 4:5-12, but to illustrate my point, I'm going to substitute my name in the place of Abraham, since I believed in Jesus and later was baptized. Be assured that I am not equating myself to Abraham, but I am a son of Abraham -Galatians 3:7 Also I will substitute the word "baptized" for the word "circumcized".
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered.' 'Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.'"
"Is this blessing then on the baptized, or on the unbaptized also? For we say, 'Faith was credited to Dwight as righteousness.' How then was it credited? While Dwight was baptized, or unbaptized? Not while baptized, but while unbaptized; and Dwight received the sign of baptism, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while unbaptized, so that he might be an example of all who believe without being baptized, that righteousness might be credited to them, and an example of baptism to those who not only are baptized, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of Dwight which he had while unbaptized."
1. On the day of Pentecost, they first believed, and then they were baptized after that. Acts 2:41
2. The Samaritans believed the good news about the kingdom of God, and after that they were baptized. Acts 8:12
3. Simon himself believed and was baptized after that. Acts 8:13
4. The Ethiopian eunuch believed first, and then when they came to some water, he was baptized. Acts 8:37
5. Saul believed first, then three days later he was baptized. Acts 9:18
6 .Cornelius and his family and friends believed first, and shortly thereafter were baptized. Acts 10:48
7. Lydia and her household believed first, and after that were baptized. Acts 16:14-15
8. The Philippian jailer and his household believed the gospel message first, and then were baptized. Acts 16:31-33
9. Crispus and his household and many of the Corinthians believed in the Lord, and after that they were baptized. Acts 18:8
10. The disciples at Ephesus believed in Jesus, and after that were baptized. Acts 19:4-5
11. I myself believed in Jesus in September of 1970. About 2 weeks later, I was baptized.
With that in mind, notice the amazing parallel between baptism and circumcision.
I'm going to quote Romans 4:5-12, but to illustrate my point, I'm going to substitute my name in the place of Abraham, since I believed in Jesus and later was baptized. Be assured that I am not equating myself to Abraham, but I am a son of Abraham -Galatians 3:7 Also I will substitute the word "baptized" for the word "circumcized".
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered.' 'Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.'"
"Is this blessing then on the baptized, or on the unbaptized also? For we say, 'Faith was credited to Dwight as righteousness.' How then was it credited? While Dwight was baptized, or unbaptized? Not while baptized, but while unbaptized; and Dwight received the sign of baptism, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while unbaptized, so that he might be an example of all who believe without being baptized, that righteousness might be credited to them, and an example of baptism to those who not only are baptized, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of Dwight which he had while unbaptized."
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@Doug Brents
Doug it is not both, or Jesus died in vain.
Righteousness comes by the law, but "not our" righteousness, but Christ obedience (righteousness) toward it in our place!
Later.
I'm busy for the most part until next Monday, but I will make time to answer you post in the morning early, the Lord willing, be patience with me. I only say this for now to allow you time to think on this.
Doug it is not both, or Jesus died in vain.
Galatians 2:20
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”Righteousness comes by the law, but "not our" righteousness, but Christ obedience (righteousness) toward it in our place!
What are you attempting to say? I do not know, and pretty sure you do not either. No pun intended. Jesus' faith is his obedience done by faith in God in our place as our surety!
Matthew 27:43
“He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.”So wrong. It is applied even if one never has ever heard of the name of Jesus Christ, if Christ died for that person!
Later.
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