Axe and two 38's

[Doug Brents]

Every time in the book of Acts where we have someone or even a crowd of people getting baptized, they always believed first.

And this is absolutely expected but completely irrelevant.
John 12:42-43 "Nevertheless many, even of the rulers, believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, so that they would not be excommunicated from the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of people rather than the approval of God."
Simply believing in Jesus is not enough to receive salvation.

With that in mind, notice the amazing parallel between baptism and circumcision.

I'm going to quote Romans 4:5-12, but to illustrate my point, I'm going to substitute my name in the place of Abraham, since I believed in Jesus and later was baptized. Be assured that I am not equating myself to Abraham, but I am a son of Abraham -Galatians 3:7 Also I will substitute the word "baptized" for the word "circumcized".

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered.' 'Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.'"
"Is this blessing then on the baptized, or on the unbaptized also? For we say, 'Faith was credited to Dwight as righteousness.' How then was it credited? While Dwight was baptized, or unbaptized? Not while baptized, but while unbaptized; and Dwight received the sign of baptism, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while unbaptized, so that he might be an example of all who believe without being baptized, that righteousness might be credited to them, and an example of baptism to those who not only are baptized, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of Dwight which he had while unbaptized."

First off, baptism does not equate to circumcision.
Second, Abraham was saved through his faith long before circumcision was given by God to him.

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm busy for the most part until next Monday, but I will make time to answer you post in the morning early, the Lord willing, be patience with me. I only say this for now to allow you time to think on this.

Doug it is not both, or Jesus died in vain.

Galatians 2:20​

“I am crucified with Christ:

When are we crucified with Christ? Rom 6:3 says that we die to sin in baptism.

nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,

Sorry, but the word here is IN, not OF. This is faith with the Son of God as the object of that faith.

who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

This does not say that if there is any physical action required to receive salvation then Christ died in vain. It says that if righteousness could come through the Law (of Moses) then Christ died in vain. Please be honest with what Scripture says.

Righteousness comes by the law

No, it does not.

, but "not our" righteousness, but Christ obedience (righteousness) toward it in our place!

Christ Jesus was not saved by the Law. He was never lost (until He hung on the Cross and took our sin upon Himself and became sin for us (2 Cor 5:21)).

So wrong. It is applied even if one never has ever heard of the name of Jesus Christ, if Christ died for that person!

Christ Jesus died for all of mankind; there is not a single person in all of the history of Creation for whom Jesus did not die (1 John 2:2, John 3:16).

 

[Red Baker]

@dwight92070

Every time in the book of Acts where we have someone or even a crowd of people getting baptized, they always believed first.

That's not too deep Dwight, that's a given! But, why do some believe and some do not who hear the very same message at the same time by the same person? Let the Holy Ghost tell us, his witness is true.

Acts 13:48​

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

You are steeped in the error of Calvinism. Those whom God chose from eternity past are the ones "who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" 1 Peter 1:2
What did He foreknow? He knew which men would freely choose to put their faith in Jesus.

Dwight, you do not understand 1st Peter 1:2; again, what you are saying is basically what an novice would assume without knowing very much of the word of God.

If this is the best you can do? If yes, then you are out of your league in debating men who know the truth and can defend it by grace of God, and to the honour of his great name.

We know what God foresaw for David and Paul tell us:

Psalms 14:1-3
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

See also: Psalms 53 and Romans 3.

Dwight, what God foresaw is this: That if he did not have an election of grace then "NONE" would have been saved, not even among the the angels of God! Yes, we were elected based on God perfect foreknowledge of knowing all things, the end from the beginning.

Later.

 

[dwight92070]

And this is absolutely expected but completely irrelevant.
John 12:42-43 "Nevertheless many, even of the rulers, believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, so that they would not be excommunicated from the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of people rather than the approval of God."
Simply believing in Jesus is not enough to receive salvation.

First off, baptism does not equate to circumcision.
Second, Abraham was saved through his faith long before circumcision was given by God to him.

The Bible says that believing in Jesus does bring salvation. So should I take your word for it or the Bible's word? Everyone in those ten verses who believed did receive salvation. If not, then why were they baptized?

I never said that baptism equates to circumcision - I said it's amazing how much it parallels baptism. Just like faith(salvation) was a necessary first step before one could be circumcised, so faith (salvation) is a necessary first step before one can be baptized, which is confirmed by those 10 verses in Acts. If someone has not been saved, they should not be baptized.
It's irrelevant that Abraham was saved long before circumcision was commanded. I never said that circumcision and baptism were alike in all areas. The point remains the same. Anyone who believes in Jesus is saved, whether they are baptized or not.

Obviously their belief must be genuine, not something "believed" to go along with the crowd, that is something fake, etc. But those 10 verses prove the point. Many are genuinely saved before they are baptized. In fact, that is the norm for the book of Acts. Yes in all of those cases, they were baptized very soon after they were saved. And that is the ideal - to be baptized as soon as possible after salvation, but that doesn't always happen. And when it does not happen immediately - let's say there is an interval of 2 months, or even 2 years, nevertheless they are still saved, but maybe lacking in good teaching about the necessity of obeying Jesus in getting baptized.

 

[Doug Brents]

The Bible says that believing in Jesus does bring salvation. So should I take your word for it or the Bible's word? Everyone in those ten verses who believed did receive salvation. If not, then why were they baptized?

Again you demonstrate that you do not understand how to read Scripture.
The message is clear in John 12:42-43 that the people who "believed" but were not willing to confess Jesus were not "in Christ", nor were they saved. They may have come to honor Him and be saved later, but it is very clear that they loved the praise of man more than the praise of God, and therefore were not in a saved relationship with Him.

I never said that baptism equates to circumcision - I said it's amazing how much it parallels baptism.

But it does not.

Just like faith(salvation) was a necessary first step before one could be circumcised,

Again, faith is not a first step, nor is it required before circumcision can be done. Circumcision was to be done on the 8th day after birth. There is no faith at 8 days old.

so faith (salvation) is a necessary first step before one can be baptized, which is confirmed by those 10 verses in Acts. If someone has not been saved, they should not be baptized.

You have that backwards, as you do most things. We die to sin in baptism, and that is when/where the Holy Spirit unites us to the death of Christ (Rom 6:1-7). If someone is not baptized, they will not be saved.

It's irrelevant that Abraham was saved long before circumcision was commanded. I never said that circumcision and baptism were alike in all areas. The point remains the same. Anyone who believes in Jesus is saved, whether they are baptized or not.

That is not correct according to Scripture.

Obviously their belief must be genuine, not something "believed" to go along with the crowd, that is something fake, etc. But those 10 verses prove the point. Many are genuinely saved before they are baptized. In fact, that is the norm for the book of Acts. Yes in all of those cases, they were baptized very soon after they were saved. And that is the ideal - to be baptized as soon as possible after salvation, but that doesn't always happen. And when it does not happen immediately - let's say there is an interval of 2 months, or even 2 years, nevertheless they are still saved, but maybe lacking in good teaching about the necessity of obeying Jesus in getting baptized.

dwight, we are saved when we come to be "in Christ". And that happens when we are baptized into Him. That is when our sins are removed. That is when we are adopted into God's family. That is when we are born again. You can "believe" till you're blue in the face, but that doesn't get you into Heaven. Only full surrender to God through baptism does.

 

[dwight92070]

Again you demonstrate that you do not understand how to read Scripture.
The message is clear in John 12:42-43 that the people who "believed" but were not willing to confess Jesus were not "in Christ", nor were they saved. They may have come to honor Him and be saved later, but it is very clear that they loved the praise of man more than the praise of God, and therefore were not in a saved relationship with Him.

So you have the ability to determine who's saved and who's not. The truth is you cannot correctly judge those persons -only God can.

But it does not.

Of course it does. I even explained the parallels, but you didn't get it, or you're just ignoring them.

Again, faith is not a first step, nor is it required before circumcision can be done. Circumcision was to be done on the 8th day after birth. There is no faith at 8 days old.

I know that, but Abraham was 99 years old when he was circumcised and that's who Paul was referring to in Romans 4. Also, when Israel backslid, which happened many times, it's very likely that they discontinued the practice, until such time as there was a spiritual renewal. So if and when they repented, there could be many who would need to be circumcised, including adults. Then there were proselytes, who wished to become Jews. Remember when Israel left Egypt, there was a mixed multitude, probably Egyptians and other Gentiles, who went out with them, wishing to join them - all of them had to commit to God and to circumcision. In all of those cases, faith in God was the first step before they were circumcised. I'm surprised you didn't even acknowledge these situations, but thought circumcision was only for babies.

You have that backwards, as you do most things. We die to sin in baptism, and that is when/where the Holy Spirit unites us to the death of Christ (Rom 6:1-7). If someone is not baptized, they will not be saved.

That is not correct according to Scripture.

Those ten Bible verses in Acts prove you wrong. In each case, they were saved first (which includes forgiveness of sin, and receiving the Holy Spirit), and received baptism after that. You are the one who has it backwards. I go by what the Bible teaches. You go by a demonic lie that says that the sacrifice of Jesus' body and blood was not sufficient to save people - you add the works of confessing Jesus as Lord and water baptism as requirements, which the Bible does never says.

dwight, we are saved when we come to be "in Christ". And that happens when we are baptized into Him. That is when our sins are removed. That is when we are adopted into God's family. That is when we are born again. You can "believe" till you're blue in the face, but that doesn't get you into Heaven. Only full surrender to God through baptism does.

Those are lies of the devil. You're trusting in your works of confessing Jesus and your baptism to be saved. I'm putting my faith in the shed blood of Jesus and the sacrifice of His body to be saved. No works that I perform can save me.

 

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

When are we crucified with Christ? Rom 6:3 says that we die to sin in baptism.

You do not practice Nehemiah 8:8; 2nd Timothy 2:15 Doug, but there others who do, and those men and women know the sense to put on such scriptures as Romans 6, along with others like Galatians 2, so that we understand the correct doctrine concerning legally being members of Christ's body, where he is the head of an elect body and "all that he did is accounted unto his members as though they did it", that's what a surety does, ~ In theology, particularly based on Hebrews 7:22 ("Jesus has become the surety of a better covenant"), a surety is a guarantor, bondman, or a personal pledge who takes full responsibility for the debts, obligation, and sins of his people, securing for them their legal satisfaction and the reward for doing so, which is the gift of eternal life. We were chosen IN CHRIST from the foundation of the world and have never been outside of him legally speaking, never, and all that he did was as though we did the same including his crucifixion/death and resurrection. You cannot separate the head from the body, impossible, they are one forever and ever.

Ephesians 2:5,6​

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”

Romans 6:3,4 is speaking of what takes place practically speaking when we, who were properly baptized into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ as we confess faith in the gospel of the Lord Jesus. Baptism speaks to the eyes of others what the gospel does to the ears concerning our faith in Christ.

Romans 6:5​

“For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”

It is all practically picturing a beautiful picture of a likeness of what we are professing to believe in, not one thing legally takes place in water baptism!

Sorry, but the word here is IN, not OF. This is faith with the Son of God as the object of that faith.

The word of God in our KJV, that our forefathers trusted in said "OF" but more than that, it fits perfectly with the true gospel of Jesus Christ where he was a surety for God's elect. We are legally justified by faith and obedience of ONE, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

This does not say that if there is any physical action required to receive salvation then Christ died in vain. It says that if righteousness could come through the Law (of Moses) then Christ died in vain. Please be honest with what Scripture says.

Look who is saying be honest with the scriptures when it is you that desires to change words to fit your corrupt gospel. Doug, when Paul said that if righteousness comes by the law, he meant "any work that man has an active part in," then that becomes a work of the law of a commandment that man must do before receiving the reward for doing so, it is you that are either deceived, or dishonest with God word, which I think is just a case of you being deceived.

No, it does not.

It does indeed in the sense in which I said, by the obedience of one just as Paul said in Romans 5:19, etc.

Christ Jesus was not saved by the Law. He was never lost (until He hung on the Cross and took our sin upon Himself and became sin for us (2 Cor 5:21)).

Never said Christ was! He was the spotless/sinless Lamb of God that died for the sins of God's elect. Jesus never became sin, he was made sin by imputation, just as God's elect are made righteous by the same truth...imputed to us by God's grace on Jesus' behalf, as though we never sinned. Our surety padi the debt in full by his death on the cross ~ with God's approval by his resurrection from the dead.

Christ Jesus died for all of mankind; there is not a single person in all of the history of Creation for whom Jesus did not die (1 John 2:2, John 3:16).

That's a lie and a false gospel! You are guilty of 2nd Peter 2:1; Jude 1:4. You are denying a truth that God's word teaches His children, yet you putting forth yourself as a defender of the truth, you failed the test according to Peter and Jude. The Lord bought his church by his precious blood, and only his church, not the world as a whole, why are you denying this truth, by doing so, you are denying the Lord that bought you , if you profess to be part of the church.

Acts 20:28​

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”

He did not purchase the world, such men as Pharaoh and his host that he drowned in the Red sea.

1st John 2:1 ~ world there is not only the Jews, to whom John was sent, to but also the Gentiles. (Galatians 2:9) John 3:16 world there is the same as 1st John 2:1 all without distinction, not all without exception, for God did make exceptions all through his word.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Among both the Jews and Gentiles God has his children of his promises, and not all are such children! Read Romans 9:6-17 and maybe we will talk more, but not going to waste precious time on men who married to their own sect above the word of God.

 

[Jaime]

There are many repent and be saved verses and many believe and be saved verses, (which are the same thing), (I counted 213 of them from Acts to Jude) but there are zero believe and be baptized to be saved verses. Only two, possibly three verses appear to say that, but don't. Let's see, evidence for what I believe - 213 verses. Evidence for what you believe - only 3 verses that don't even 100% confirm what you believe. Hmmm. 213 to 3 which evidence should I go by?

I beg to differ on your bolded statement:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

To pre-empt the usual argument, the part after the but means an unbeliever is already condemned plus an unbeliever would only be getting wet if he happened to be ceremonially dunked.

As I said before this particular verse does NOT mean verses concerning repenting and confessing with you lips are voided and it does NOT mean they conflict. It’s ALL of the above and ALL of the above is congruant, compatible and non-conflicting with the overarching statement that we are saved by grace through faith. Our faith responses do not usurp God saving ha by grace through faith. Our faith responses demonstrate our faith in Christ’s faithfulness and our acceptance of God’s Grace, the free gift we can not merit or earn.

 

[Doug Brents]

So you have the ability to determine who's saved and who's not. The truth is you cannot correctly judge those persons -only God can.

I am not judging them. I am reading what Scripture says about them, and commenting on what God said they are. I do not judge thieves, or slanderers, or homosexuals. God has done that, and told us that they are condemned. Is it judging them to identify their sin, and explain God's hatred for that sin to them? No.

I know that, but Abraham was 99 years old when he was circumcised and that's who Paul was referring to in Romans 4.

Which demonstrates the lack of parallel between circumcision and baptism.

Also, when Israel backslid, which happened many times, it's very likely that they discontinued the practice, until such time as there was a spiritual renewal. So if and when they repented, there could be many who would need to be circumcised, including adults. Then there were proselytes, who wished to become Jews. Remember when Israel left Egypt, there was a mixed multitude, probably Egyptians and other Gentiles, who went out with them, wishing to join them - all of them had to commit to God and to circumcision. In all of those cases, faith in God was the first step before they were circumcised. I'm surprised you didn't even acknowledge these situations, but thought circumcision was only for babies.

I do acknowledge those situations, but they are not of any importance in this discussion. Circumcision was done as a sign of the Old Covenant with God, to those who were already part of the Old Covenant (both those born under and those added to the Old Covenant). Baptism is how we are added into the New Covenant. Baptism is the point at which we submit to, and are covered under, the New Covenant.

Those ten Bible verses in Acts prove you wrong. In each case, they were saved first (which includes forgiveness of sin, and receiving the Holy Spirit), and received baptism after that.

Again, none of those passages indicate in any way that these people were forgiven before they were baptized. They cannot because then they would be contradicting the passages that say we are washed clean of sin in/during baptism.

You are the one who has it backwards. I go by what the Bible teaches. You go by a demonic lie that says that the sacrifice of Jesus' body and blood was not sufficient to save people - you add the works of confessing Jesus as Lord and water baptism as requirements, which the Bible does never says.

rotfcmeo - I am not saying in any way that the sacrifice of Jesus' body and blood was in any way insufficient to save people. Jesus paid the price in full for our salvation. There is nothing we can do that would add to His gift. All of mankind who has ever or will ever live cannot even add a quark to the universe of the gift that Jesus paid for in full. Jesus' gift is not forced upon anyone. It is not given just because someone had a thought once upon a time that the Bible was true. It is not given because someone simply believes in their heart with no action to back it up.

The demonic lie is that salvation can be received without faithful obedience to what God has said is necessary to receive it.

Those are lies of the devil. You're trusting in your works of confessing Jesus and your baptism to be saved. I'm putting my faith in the shed blood of Jesus and the sacrifice of His body to be saved. No works that I perform can save me.

That is Satan twisting your understanding of what I am saying. No, my works cannot save me. Baptism is not the cure that washes away sin because of some mystical power in the water, or some ceremonial words said in the process. That is like the seven brothers who were trying to cast out demons "in the name of Jesus who Paul preaches" (Acts 19:13-16). Baptism is simply the point in our faith at which God moves. The point in our faith at which He removes our sin and unites us with Jesus' resurrection. There is NO merit to baptism, other than that it is our demonstration of our surrender to His will.

 

[Doug Brents]

You do not practice Nehemiah 8:8; 2nd Timothy 2:15 Doug, but there others who do, and those men and women know the sense to put on such scriptures as Romans 6, along with others like Galatians 2, so that we understand the correct doctrine concerning legally being members of Christ's body, where he is the head of an elect body and "all that he did is accounted unto his members as though they did it", that's what a surety does, ~ In theology, particularly based on Hebrews 7:22 ("Jesus has become the surety of a better covenant"), a surety is a guarantor, bondman, or a personal pledge who takes full responsibility for the debts, obligation, and sins of his people, securing for them their legal satisfaction and the reward for doing so, which is the gift of eternal life. We were chosen IN CHRIST from the foundation of the world and have never been outside of him legally speaking, never, and all that he did was as though we did the same including his crucifixion/death and resurrection. You cannot separate the head from the body, impossible, they are one forever and ever.

What I bolded above is one of the most hideous lies I have ever seen someone post in this forum. Someone who has never been outside of Christ would be well, healthy (spiritually speaking), and would not have any need for a savior, a healer, or a redeemer. But that is exactly who/what Jesus said He is and came to be: our savior, our healer, and our redeemer. All have sinned and fallen short, and the wages of sin is death. So EVERYONE is in need of a savior, healer, and redeemer; even those who God knew would surrender to Him from before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:5,6​

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”

Romans 6:3,4 is speaking of what takes place practically speaking when we, who were properly baptized into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ as we confess faith in the gospel of the Lord Jesus. Baptism speaks to the eyes of others what the gospel does to the ears concerning our faith in Christ.

Baptism is not just "for the eyes of others". That is not what Rom 6:3-4 says. It says that we die to sin in baptism, and in baptism we are united to the resurrection of Jesus. Col 2:11-14 is similar, saying that in baptism our sin is cut from us and we are united to Jesus resurrection. Eph 5:26-27 says that it is in the washing of water (baptism) that we are washed clean of all spots and blemishes and made Holy.

Romans 6:5​

“For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”

It is all practically picturing a beautiful picture of a likeness of what we are professing to believe in, not one thing legally takes place in water baptism!

The likeness is not just a picturing, but is the actual event. That is why 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is in baptism that we are saved, not by having dirt washed from our body, but by the Holy Spirit giving us a clean conscience through the blood of Jesus.

The word of God in our KJV, that our forefathers trusted in said "OF" but more than that, it fits perfectly with the true gospel of Jesus Christ where he was a surety for God's elect. We are legally justified by faith and obedience of ONE, Jesus Christ.

There are some very big issues with the KJV translation, and one of them is the "OF" that you are focused on here. It is not Jesus' faith that is required for our salvation, but our faith with Jesus as its focus. Was it Jesus' faith that cleansed the woman of the issue of blood? Was it Jesus' faith that raised the centurion's child? Was it Jesus' faith that was lacking when the Apostles woke Him from sleep because they were afraid of the storm? NO!!! It is our faith.

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

As I said at the start, Jesus' faithfulness was indeed essential for our salvation. His faithfulness provides the possibility for us to be saved. But for salvation to actually be applied to an individual, that individual must exhibit faith in Jesus.

Look who is saying be honest with the scriptures when it is you that desires to change words to fit your corrupt gospel. Doug, when Paul said that if righteousness comes by the law, he meant "any work that man has an active part in," then that becomes a work of the law of a commandment that man must do before receiving the reward for doing so, it is you that are either deceived, or dishonest with God word, which I think is just a case of you being deceived.

Wow, that is a significant case of eisegesis. "The Law" becomes "any work that man has an active part in"? Wrong, wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Rom 10:9-10 puts the lie to that. The physical action of confession Jesus as Lord "with the mouth" results in salvation being received. Next fallacy.

Never said Christ was!

Forgive me if I misunderstood you. You said that, "righteousness comes by the law, but not our righteousness, but Christ obedience (righteousness) toward it in our place!" I take that to mean that you believe that it was Jesus' obedience to the Law that saved Him.

He was the spotless/sinless Lamb of God that died for the sins of God's elect.

You mean every person who has or will ever live (1 John 2:2, John 3:16).

Jesus never became sin, he was made sin by imputation,

2 Cor 5:21 - "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
He, the Father, made Him who knew no sin (Jesus) to be sin on our behalf. Jesus didn't just carry our sin, He took it into Himself; He became sin. Yes, this is by imputation, not by direct commission of any sin, but that doesn't change the fact that He became sin for us.

That's a lie and a false gospel! You are guilty of 2nd Peter 2:1; Jude 1:4. You are denying a truth that God's word teaches His children, yet you putting forth yourself as a defender of the truth, you failed the test according to Peter and Jude. The Lord bought his church by his precious blood, and only his church, not the world as a whole, why are you denying this truth, by doing so, you are denying the Lord that bought you , if you profess to be part of the church.

Only Jesus' Church benefits from His blood, but His blood was shed for all mankind. You don't want to hear it, but that doesn't change the Truth. Read 1 John 2:2. What does it actually say?
"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Who is "our"? It is the Church. But John says that Jesus didn't only die for the Church, but for the sins of whom? THE WHOLE WORLD!!

Acts 20:28​

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”

He did not purchase the world, such men as Pharaoh and his host that he drowned in the Red sea.

He paid a price sufficient for the whole world, but only the Church becomes His.

1st John 2:1 ~ world there is not only the Jews, to whom John was sent, to but also the Gentiles. (Galatians 2:9) John 3:16 world there is the same as 1st John 2:1 all without distinction, not all without exception, for God did make exceptions all through his word.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Among both the Jews and Gentiles God has his children of his promises, and not all are such children! Read Romans 9:6-17 and maybe we will talk more, but not going to waste precious time on men who married to their own sect above the word of God.

These verses do not stipulate Jew vs Gentile. 1 John was not written to the Jews; it was written to the Church. All of John's books and letters were written to the Church at large. They were written over 50 years after the Cross, over 45 years (almost 2 generations) after the first Gentile was brought into the Church. The Church was no longer contending between Jew and Gentile, but were one united "us" and "our". "The World" is all those outside of the Church, not the Gentiles. Jews who are outside of the Church are part of "the World" also.

 

[dwight92070]

Luke 7:48-50 "Then He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." ... "And He said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you; go in peace.' "

When Jesus speaks, let all others be silent. Here He speaks the truth of what it takes to be saved and when our sins are forgiven - and it's not at baptism

"... let God be true, though every man be found a liar ..." Romans 3:4

 

[dwight92070]

Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

Whoever eats vegetables and exercises will be healthy; but this does not mean that whoever eats vegetables but doesn't exercise will be unhealthy.

Yes baptism is the expected response to being saved, but unbelief alone dooms a person.

 

[dwight92070]

Acts 2:38
This verse commands both repentance and baptism in response to the gospel, but the decisive element for forgiveness is repentant faith in Christ. Baptism is the expected normative response for believers, closely "tied" to the experience of salvation in the early church context, but not the means that earns or completes it apart from faith.

Salvation is received by faith alone in Christ's finished work on the cross.
Baptism is an act of obedience and a public sign/symbol of the faith already present - it pictures dying and rising with Christ, but it doesn't cause or complete salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

Luke 7:48-50 "Then He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." ... "And He said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you; go in peace.' "

When Jesus speaks, let all others be silent. Here He speaks the truth of what it takes to be saved and when our sins are forgiven - and it's not at baptism

"... let God be true, though every man be found a liar ..." Romans 3:4

Jesus had the authority to forgive sins during His lifetime. He accepted many forms of faith during His life, and it was within His power to do so. But with His death, His Will was set and cannot be changed (Heb 9:16-17). Today, we must abide by what is written in Scripture, and not seek to deviate from what He said is required to receive salvation.

Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

Whoever eats vegetables and exercises will be healthy; but this does not mean that whoever eats vegetables but doesn't exercise will be unhealthy.

Yes baptism is the expected response to being saved, but unbelief alone dooms a person.

It is not as if we are in a right relationship with God, then choose to believe but refuse baptism, and so are condemned. We are already condemned/unhealthy before we believe/eat vegetables. The one who believes and is baptized will become not condemned. The one who eats vegetables and exercises will become not unhealthy. It takes both to change your current state.

Acts 2:38
This verse commands both repentance and baptism in response to the gospel, but the decisive element for forgiveness is repentant faith in Christ. Baptism is the expected normative response for believers, closely "tied" to the experience of salvation in the early church context, but not the means that earns or completes it apart from faith.

This is your opinion on this verse, but it is not accurate to what the verse actually says.

Salvation is received by faith alone in Christ's finished work on the cross.
Baptism is an act of obedience and a public sign/symbol of the faith already present - it pictures dying and rising with Christ, but it doesn't cause or complete salvation.

Faith is not real without action. If there is no action, then faith does not exist, it is fake, lifeless, useless, and ineffective. Dead faith cannot save you (James 2:14-26). If you believe in Jesus, then you must do what He tells you to do in order to receive His gift. His gift is free to receive, but it is not received without action/obedience.