Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Your like a broken record
Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will
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brightfame52
Well-known member
I have no problem with Gods ability, however man has no ability to believe in Jesus. Jn 6:44 But now yes with Gods power and ability in regeneration He causes one to believe in Jesus, thats my point. So mans freewill is eliminated. Also Gods power in this matter is strictly to a elect people.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Jesus stated man doesnt have the ability to believe in Him. Jn 6:44
brightfame52
Well-known member
Show me one scripture that says man has the ability to believe on Christ. Jesus denies it Jn 6:44
brightfame52
Well-known member
You havent showed one verse that says man has the abilty to believe on Jesus, yet I have showed you n 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This means no man has the ability to come to Jesus Christ, and come here is the equivalent to believe. See here in Vs 35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You have and continue to resist the truth I have presented, otherwise I dont know anything about you
brightfame52
Well-known member
Lol likewise champ
Jesus doesn't stop with John 6:44. He also says the following in John 12:32:
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
You're living in OT times. There exists 2000 years of history that you need to catch up on. So everyone is now (since the Cross) offered the ability to believe in Jesus because he draws all, no exceptions.
And don't start redefining the word "all" as all Calvinists are forced to do as a sacrifice to their calvinist man-made god.
MTMattie
Well-known member
I am not certain you will understand what you are about to read..... but try.
Let us start... And for heaven's sake dont you dare comment with your standard statement of impossibility because that does not fly in the face of proof. And if you do we all will knopw you did not read, and only used your copy and paste remarks as you do daily. (BTW, are those on sticky notes at the side of your PC screen?
You always use John as your Go To.... What about what Paul says?
Paul Teaches Free Will, Not Determinism: Romans 9, Part 3
August 19, 2015In this series of posts, I am challenging the deterministic reading of Romans 9, which interprets Paul’s teaching as saying that God chooses some to be saved and others to be damned. There are six arguments that I offer to challenge this popular view. Today, I will look at the fourth.
Argument #4: Paul’s Summary and Free Will
A fourth argument that demonstrates the error of the deterministic interpretation of Romans 9 concerns Paul’s summary at the end of this chapter. Whenever we are struggling to understand a complex line of reasoning such as we find in Romans 9, it is crucial to pay close attention to the author’s own summary of his argument, if and when he provides one. By all accounts, Romans 9 is a difficult, complex and highly disputed passage. Fortunately, Paul provides us with a very clear summary of his argument in this chapter (vss. 30-32). Unfortunately for the deterministic interpretation, it appeals to free will as the decisive factor in determining who “receives mercy” and who gets “hardened.”
Paul begins his summary by asking, “What then shall we say?” (vs. 30). If the deterministic interpretation was correct, we would expect Paul to answer by saying something like, “The sovereign God has determined who will be elect and who will not, and no one has the right to question him.” As a matter of fact, however, Paul doesn’t say anything like this. He rather summarizes his argument by saying:
This is extremely significant. Paul explains everything he’s been talking about throughout Romans 9 by appealing to the morally responsible choices of the Israelites and Gentiles. The one thing God has always looked for in people is faith. The Jews did not “strive” by faith, though they should have (cf. 10:3). They rather chose to trust in their own works. The Gentiles, however, simply believed that God would justify them by faith. This theme recurs throughout chapters 9 through 11. As a nation, Paul says, the Jews “were broken off because of their unbelief…” (11:20, emphasis added). This is why they have been hardened (Rom. 11:7, 25) while the Gentiles, who sought God by faith, have been “grafted in” (11:23).
We see that God’s process of hardening some and having mercy on others is not arbitrary: God expresses “severity toward those who have fallen [the nation of Israel] but kindness toward you [believers] provided you continue in his kindness” (11:22). God has mercy on people and hardens people in response to their belief or unbelief. And he is willing to change his mind about both the hardening and the mercy, if people change. If Gentiles become arrogant and cease walking by faith alone, they will once again be “cut off.” And if the Jews who are now hardened will not “persist in their unbelief,” God will “graft them in again” (Rom. 11:22-23).
To the Jews who trusted in their national identity and/or external obedience to the law, this hardening seemed arbitrary. Hence Paul chides them by asking, “[W]ho indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’” (Rom. 9:20). But, as Paul makes abundantly clear throughout Romans 9-11, the hardening was in fact not arbitrary. It was perfectly consistent with the criteria of faith God has always worked with. He gives mercy in response to faith and he hardens in response to unbelief. It’s not the other way around. People don’t have faith as a result of God having mercy on them, and people don’t have unbelief as a result of God hardening them.
Yet, to Jews who remained convinced that their national identity and/or good works were the basis of God giving mercy, it now seemed like God was arbitrarily hardening them and arbitrarily extending mercy to the Gentiles.
Paul Teaches Free Will, Not Determinism: Romans 9, Part 3 - Greg Boyd - ReKnew
In this series of posts, I am challenging the deterministic reading of Romans 9, which interprets Paul’s teaching as saying that God chooses some to be saved and others to be damned. There are six arguments that I offer to challenge this popular view. Today, I will look at the fourth. Argument...
reknew.org
brightfame52
Well-known member
Once again Show me one scripture that says man has the ability to believe on Christ. Jesus denies it Jn 6:44
brightfame52
Well-known member
So when can you show one verse stating men have the ability to believe in Jesus, Jesus stated twice men have not that ability Jn 6:44,65I am not certain you will understand what you are about to read..... but try.
Let us start... And for heaven's sake dont you dare comment with your standard statement of impossibility because that does not fly in the face of proof. And if you do we all will knopw you did not read, and only used your copy and paste remarks as you do daily. (BTW, are those on sticky notes at the side of your PC screen?
You always use John as your Go To.... What about what Paul says?
Paul Teaches Free Will, Not Determinism: Romans 9, Part 3
August 19, 2015
In this series of posts, I am challenging the deterministic reading of Romans 9, which interprets Paul’s teaching as saying that God chooses some to be saved and others to be damned. There are six arguments that I offer to challenge this popular view. Today, I will look at the fourth.
Argument #4: Paul’s Summary and Free Will
A fourth argument that demonstrates the error of the deterministic interpretation of Romans 9 concerns Paul’s summary at the end of this chapter. Whenever we are struggling to understand a complex line of reasoning such as we find in Romans 9, it is crucial to pay close attention to the author’s own summary of his argument, if and when he provides one. By all accounts, Romans 9 is a difficult, complex and highly disputed passage. Fortunately, Paul provides us with a very clear summary of his argument in this chapter (vss. 30-32). Unfortunately for the deterministic interpretation, it appeals to free will as the decisive factor in determining who “receives mercy” and who gets “hardened.”
Paul begins his summary by asking, “What then shall we say?” (vs. 30). If the deterministic interpretation was correct, we would expect Paul to answer by saying something like, “The sovereign God has determined who will be elect and who will not, and no one has the right to question him.” As a matter of fact, however, Paul doesn’t say anything like this. He rather summarizes his argument by saying:
This is extremely significant. Paul explains everything he’s been talking about throughout Romans 9 by appealing to the morally responsible choices of the Israelites and Gentiles. The one thing God has always looked for in people is faith. The Jews did not “strive” by faith, though they should have (cf. 10:3). They rather chose to trust in their own works. The Gentiles, however, simply believed that God would justify them by faith. This theme recurs throughout chapters 9 through 11. As a nation, Paul says, the Jews “were broken off because of their unbelief…” (11:20, emphasis added). This is why they have been hardened (Rom. 11:7, 25) while the Gentiles, who sought God by faith, have been “grafted in” (11:23).
We see that God’s process of hardening some and having mercy on others is not arbitrary: God expresses “severity toward those who have fallen [the nation of Israel] but kindness toward you [believers] provided you continue in his kindness” (11:22). God has mercy on people and hardens people in response to their belief or unbelief. And he is willing to change his mind about both the hardening and the mercy, if people change. If Gentiles become arrogant and cease walking by faith alone, they will once again be “cut off.” And if the Jews who are now hardened will not “persist in their unbelief,” God will “graft them in again” (Rom. 11:22-23).
To the Jews who trusted in their national identity and/or external obedience to the law, this hardening seemed arbitrary. Hence Paul chides them by asking, “[W]ho indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’” (Rom. 9:20). But, as Paul makes abundantly clear throughout Romans 9-11, the hardening was in fact not arbitrary. It was perfectly consistent with the criteria of faith God has always worked with. He gives mercy in response to faith and he hardens in response to unbelief. It’s not the other way around. People don’t have faith as a result of God having mercy on them, and people don’t have unbelief as a result of God hardening them.
Yet, to Jews who remained convinced that their national identity and/or good works were the basis of God giving mercy, it now seemed like God was arbitrarily hardening them and arbitrarily extending mercy to the Gentiles.
Paul Teaches Free Will, Not Determinism: Romans 9, Part 3 - Greg Boyd - ReKnew
In this series of posts, I am challenging the deterministic reading of Romans 9, which interprets Paul’s teaching as saying that God chooses some to be saved and others to be damned. There are six arguments that I offer to challenge this popular view. Today, I will look at the fourth. Argument...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he[Jesus] said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
The word can in the original means dynamai :
- to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
- to be able to do something
- to be capable, strong and powerful
Man doesnt have the ability, so that shuts down man freewill, that falsehood
civic
Well-known member
strawman
So Christ now draws all men to himself for what reason???? To tell them that John 12:32 is mistaken and that it's the Father who should have drawn them???
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sorry but man doesnt have the ability to believe in Jesus
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im not talking about what Christ did, but that Christ stated man doesnt have the ability to believe in Himself. Do you concur ?So Christ now draws all men to himself for what reason???? To tell them that John 12:32 is mistaken and that it's the Father who should have draw them???
brightfame52
Well-known member
Does Jesus say in Jn 12:32 that men now have the ability to believe in me ? It was Jesus who said man doesnt have the ability to believe in me Jn 6:44,65So Christ now draws all men to himself for what reason???? To tell them that John 12:32 is mistaken and that it's the Father who should have drawn them???
If you end taking Christ out of the picture, as all calvinists do, then you would not even exist. So your question is infantile at best.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Women do. It is right there in YOUR bible.........
Mark 5: 21-24
21 And when Jesus was passed over again by ship unto the other side, much people gathered unto him: and he was nigh unto the sea. 22 And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet, 23 And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.
24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him. 25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, 26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. 28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Mathew 15: 22-28
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Does Jesus say man has the ability to believe in Him now ? Jn 12:32
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sorry but man doesnt have the ability to believe in Jesus.
Man here covers women as well Jn 6:44
