civic
Well-known member
Sure they do
Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
So Christ now draws all men to himself for what reason???? To tell them that John 12:32 is mistaken and that they cannot be drawn to Jesus????
civic
Well-known member
Ya think lol
MTMattie
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
You are at variance with Jesus own words, look Jn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Does Jesus say man has the ability to believe in Him now ? Jn 12:32
brightfame52
Well-known member
See mans will isnt free to believe in Jesus, some cannot believe Jn 12:39
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
MTMattie
Well-known member
Rinse and repeat
brightfame52
Well-known member
You should want to keep hearing the Truth
Selah
Well-known member
John 6:35-40 (NKJV) 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 “But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Notice that in verse 36, there are unbelievers who, even with Jesus standing among them, deny Him. Verses 37-40 refer to the elect who will always come to Jesus.
Selah
MTMattie
Well-known member
How is it that those women in Matt and Mark came to Jesus for the healings they were seeking.
Jesus had not even preached yet away from the sheep he was sent back for.
He seemed a bit surprised at their faith.
How did that happen?
Selah
Well-known member
They had faith; they believed that Jesus could heal them.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Let us assume you are right. (I still disagree but )... and in being right God the Father would be the one to besically have predestined me for salvation.
When does this happen? At what age? What is the oldest person you remember reading in the bible that God predestined then called to Jesus?
If I am wrong (I am not) and as you say I should keep hearing the truth.... GUESS WHAT.
From all I have ever heard or read... on other forums and this one... one does not get into that predestined mode but hearing about it. God either has picked you or has not.
So would god have picked someone, say when they were in grade school or even younger but chose not to draw them to Jesus until they were old, and looking at the future with the idea that they best get their burial things lined up as there is no one who would do that for you.....
And then all of a sudden one day they have a light bulb moment and they say "Oh my gosh. @brightfame52 was right all along but hows come I never knew God was drawing me to Jesus. What mommy told me when in grade school and great grandma
said about Jesus and God loving me was all wrong... but here I might be in my last 5 or 15 years of life and there is no way to tell
if God predestined me or not... what if I am one of the reprobate. That is in the West Minster Confession of Faith.... so my church believes that... but never talks about it.
Now.... @brightfame52... put yourself in this scenario....one that might allow 5 to 15 more years of not worrying if ones eternity
is predestined to hell.
MTMattie
Well-known member
EXACTLYThey had faith; they believed that Jesus could heal them.
You are bearing false witness again
I showed many
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God
Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.
Convincing them Jesus was the Christ
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
Miracles have power to bring about faith
John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Your verse simply shows man needed to hear from God
Having heard man can believe
Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
All those you ignored
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God
Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.
Convincing them Jesus was the Christ
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
Miracles have power to bring about faith
John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
He just ignores scripture which contradicts his theology.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Since you are so enamored by John, and avoid the rest of the Holy scriptures....
Explain this one from John that certainly tells us that the Father God did not draw those people to belief.
John 11:41-44
So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.”
People were watching and Jesus had to show them who he was. God the Father did not draw them to Jesus. They had to decide for themsellves.
MTMattie
Well-known member
@brightfame52,
You, "
Below are an abundance of scriptures, most of which are self-explanatory, which establish the fact that every single person born on this earth has a chance to be saved. We cautiously step on Holy ground when trying to understand the mysterious things of God. When trying to answer tough questions we must look at all of Scripture and not just a few verses. Paul’s views on predestination are noted but the writings of Jesus, John and Peter have made it more than clear to all of us who truly seek Him in His word, that no one, pre-birth is designated for hell at the whim of God, and that everyone has an opportunity to recognize and choose the only one who can save us from the consequences of sin. The character of God supports this position.
Psalm 19:1-4 In this passage, David states that the heavens declare the glory of the Lord and the earth shows His handiwork. Day after day they pour forth knowledge and night after night they pour forth speech. There is no language where their voice isn’t heard. Their words have gone out to the end of the world.
Matthew 11:28-30 Come to me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest….Anyone who is weary and burdened is invited by Jesus to come to Him for rest. He doesn’t invite those he’s allegedly already chosen. He wants and invited all of us.
Matthew 18:14 When Jesus is talking about children, He specifically states that it is not His Father’s will that even one of these should perish. Clearly, Jesus is sharing His (and the Father’s) hope that every single one of the children on earth will seek Him and find Him. His will is that none perish, yet many do, thereby confirming that we have a will that can reject God.
I will repeat that..... His will is that none perish, yet many do, thereby confirming that we have a will that can reject God.
Luke 2:9-11 When the angel of the Lord appeared to the shepherds to announce Christ’s birth, he told them that he was bringing tidings of great joy which will be “to all people.”
John 1:1-18 The gospel of John (along with Romans Chapter 10) is a tour de force an excellent place to start in proving that Jesus came to save everyone who believes. Sadly, most reject his offer of salvation by grace through faith.
(You will love the following... from you man John.......................)
In the opening four verses, the Apostle John states, with great clarity exactly who our savior is, and he makes it abundantly clear that: Jesus “was the light of men.” Jesus was not the light of some men. He was not the light for certain chosen men. He was the light of all men. John then goes on to state that John the Baptist came as a witness to Jesus so that through Him all men might believe.(V. 7).
Again, it was Jesus’ hope that every single person on this earth would believe in God…not just some men, not just certain pre-selected men, but all men. In verse 12, John also specifically states that anyone who receives Jesus, to him he will give the power to become a son of God. John is emphasizing the fact that there is a strong volitional element to salvation. Anyone who receives Jesus Christ can become a child of God.
John 3:16-21 In this well-known passage, Jesus restates the point made by John in chapter 1, by saying that anyone who believes in the name of Jesus will not perish but will have everlasting life. Verse 17 goes on to state that God sent Jesus into this world not to condemn it but to save it. He did not come to save a few preselected people who were already marked for salvation. Why would Jesus come and die a brutal, torturous death to save people who were already saved?
2 Peter 3:9 – “He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
1 Timothy 2: 3-6 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.”
Some Christians are dogmatic and espouse their belief that man does not have a choice and that God has predestined certain people to become His children. Scripture does not support this belief. We know that God knows all things and the hearts of all people. He knows but does not dictate but rather gives us choice to respond to the call of God, through the Holy Spirit. This is holy ground and something that our finite minds cannot understand. Deuteronomy 29:29 – “The secret things belong to the Lord our God….”
You, "
Does everyone have a chance to know God?
Of course..... Yes.Below are an abundance of scriptures, most of which are self-explanatory, which establish the fact that every single person born on this earth has a chance to be saved. We cautiously step on Holy ground when trying to understand the mysterious things of God. When trying to answer tough questions we must look at all of Scripture and not just a few verses. Paul’s views on predestination are noted but the writings of Jesus, John and Peter have made it more than clear to all of us who truly seek Him in His word, that no one, pre-birth is designated for hell at the whim of God, and that everyone has an opportunity to recognize and choose the only one who can save us from the consequences of sin. The character of God supports this position.
Psalm 19:1-4 In this passage, David states that the heavens declare the glory of the Lord and the earth shows His handiwork. Day after day they pour forth knowledge and night after night they pour forth speech. There is no language where their voice isn’t heard. Their words have gone out to the end of the world.
Matthew 11:28-30 Come to me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest….Anyone who is weary and burdened is invited by Jesus to come to Him for rest. He doesn’t invite those he’s allegedly already chosen. He wants and invited all of us.
Matthew 18:14 When Jesus is talking about children, He specifically states that it is not His Father’s will that even one of these should perish. Clearly, Jesus is sharing His (and the Father’s) hope that every single one of the children on earth will seek Him and find Him. His will is that none perish, yet many do, thereby confirming that we have a will that can reject God.
I will repeat that..... His will is that none perish, yet many do, thereby confirming that we have a will that can reject God.
Luke 2:9-11 When the angel of the Lord appeared to the shepherds to announce Christ’s birth, he told them that he was bringing tidings of great joy which will be “to all people.”
John 1:1-18 The gospel of John (along with Romans Chapter 10) is a tour de force an excellent place to start in proving that Jesus came to save everyone who believes. Sadly, most reject his offer of salvation by grace through faith.
(You will love the following... from you man John.......................)
In the opening four verses, the Apostle John states, with great clarity exactly who our savior is, and he makes it abundantly clear that: Jesus “was the light of men.” Jesus was not the light of some men. He was not the light for certain chosen men. He was the light of all men. John then goes on to state that John the Baptist came as a witness to Jesus so that through Him all men might believe.(V. 7).
Again, it was Jesus’ hope that every single person on this earth would believe in God…not just some men, not just certain pre-selected men, but all men. In verse 12, John also specifically states that anyone who receives Jesus, to him he will give the power to become a son of God. John is emphasizing the fact that there is a strong volitional element to salvation. Anyone who receives Jesus Christ can become a child of God.
John 3:16-21 In this well-known passage, Jesus restates the point made by John in chapter 1, by saying that anyone who believes in the name of Jesus will not perish but will have everlasting life. Verse 17 goes on to state that God sent Jesus into this world not to condemn it but to save it. He did not come to save a few preselected people who were already marked for salvation. Why would Jesus come and die a brutal, torturous death to save people who were already saved?
2 Peter 3:9 – “He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
1 Timothy 2: 3-6 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.”
Some Christians are dogmatic and espouse their belief that man does not have a choice and that God has predestined certain people to become His children. Scripture does not support this belief. We know that God knows all things and the hearts of all people. He knows but does not dictate but rather gives us choice to respond to the call of God, through the Holy Spirit. This is holy ground and something that our finite minds cannot understand. Deuteronomy 29:29 – “The secret things belong to the Lord our God….”
brightfame52
Well-known member
If someone came to Jesus it was because they were drawn by the Father, its right there in the Jn 6:44
