Are we Predestined?

[TibiasDad]

They were in fact predestinated in love, until the adoption of children

Now that is the premise for discussion: are we predestined by God to be what we are and will be in eternity?

If this is false, your argument based on it is necessarily false as well.

Doug

************

The above is a post from another thread that I thought I would start a new thread!

Are we predestined to be what we are and where we will be in eternity? The Calvinist answers this in the affirmative, often citing Rom 9 as the foundation of their argument.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This, by itself, would seem to imply that some are predestined to wrath and others to glory, but this is not what the purpose of of the chapter is.

Paul seeks to express his hope of Israel as a people, and states why there is still opportunity for them to be redeemed, they are, after all, God’s chosen people and the acceptance of the Gentiles does not change this.

Then the question is raised as to why the Gentiles, who are not God’s chosen people, were not given the law or the promises are accepted and Israel is rejected? This is where Paul’s point finds its conclusion:

30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

So why was Israel rejected? “Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul doesn’t say that God picked some to be saved, but that his sovereign choice was that whoever believes will be saved, whether it be a Jew or a Gentile.

Paul doesn’t say salvation is predetermined, but that whoever believes will be saved is God’s predetermined choice.

Doug

 

[mikesw]

Here is the rough outline of the first 24 verses. I do not know how helpful the outline is on its own though.

i Need and "right" for Israelites to enjoy promises (9:1-5)
ii. Narrowing of Israel to only bloodline who are also of promise (9:6-21)
a. Only a certain path was under promise under Abraham (9:6-13)
b. Argument for God's right to narrow those of Israel (9:14-19)
c. Problem of us questioning God's selection among Jews (9:20-21)
iii. God's patience prevented earlier time of wrath upon Israel (9:22-24)

The passage does not cover anything about gentiles until verse 24. In vv 14-19, Paul seems to first speak of God choosing Jews that would be judged and who would be justified. This sounds negative at first regarding Jews. The gentiles would join in agreement with this negative sense of Jews. The critical point is in v 22 where Paul turns the argument around so that the gentiles now are compelled to accept that God had patiently endured Jews in disobedience -- not to judge them all but rather, in the positive sense, to allow time for Jews to be shown mercy (v23). Paul has thusly turned the whole bleak situation into an argument for positive benefits for Jews.

This then is not relevant to predestination except perhaps for the ancient biblical figures Paul mentions.

 

[Jim]

Now that is the premise for discussion: are we predestined by God to be what we are and will be in eternity?

If this is false, your argument based on it is necessarily false as well.

Doug

************

The above is a post from another thread that I thought I would start a new thread!

Are we predestined to be what we are and where we will be in eternity? The Calvinist answers this in the affirmative, often citing Rom 9 as the foundation of their argument.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This, by itself, would seem to imply that some are predestined to wrath and others to glory, but this is not what the purpose of of the chapter is.

Paul seeks to express his hope of Israel as a people, and states why there is still opportunity for them to be redeemed, they are, after all, God’s chosen people and the acceptance of the Gentiles does not change this.

Then the question is raised as to why the Gentiles, who are not God’s chosen people, were not given the law or the promises are accepted and Israel is rejected? This is where Paul’s point finds its conclusion:

30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

So why was Israel rejected? “Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul doesn’t say that God picked some to be saved, but that his sovereign choice was that whoever believes will be saved, whether it be a Jew or a Gentile.

Paul doesn’t say salvation is predetermined, but that whoever believes will be saved is God’s predetermined choice.

Doug

Romans 9 is not really about the salvation of anyone. Rather, it is about God's using Israel to bring Christ into the world to be the sacrifice for sin. The choosing of Jacob, Esau, Pharoah mentioned in that chapter is not about God's choosing them for either eternal life or eternal condemnation but rather it is about God's choosing them for service in bringing His plan of salvation to the world.

The potter and clay metaphor is about life here on this earth, not about life in the hereafter. That is apparent from verse 22 where it speaks of God showing his wrath and making known His power. Whether God has saved or condemned anyone is not something that can be observed. Only works done by those "selected" here are earth can show God's wrath and make His power known. Their selection, their election, was not for salvation; instead, their election was for service.

Consider Luke 9:35 where we read that God has said that Jesus was His chosen one. Clearly Jesus wasn't chosen for salvation; rather, Jesus was chosen to serve the purpose of the Messiah. The same is said of those spoken of in Romans 9. Israel was not chosen for salvation; Israel was chosen for service. That being said, some indeed did receive the gift of salvation, but that was through, as was said of Abraham, having believed in God, not through election. The remnant, like us, was saved by grace through faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Now that is the premise for discussion: are we predestined by God to be what we are and will be in eternity?

If this is false, your argument based on it is necessarily false as well.

Those in Eph 2:3 the children of wrath by nature, they were not the vessels of wrath created for destruction. They instead were chosen in Christ before the foundation, to be holy and without blame, in love Predestined to the adoption of children Eph 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

But with the vessels of wrath in Rom 9, God made them for His wrath and destruction for their sin

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 9 is not really about the salvation of anyone

Yes it is, being a vessel of Mercy afore prepared for Glory is specifically about salvation Glory Rom 9 23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:23 (KJV)

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Not only will God bring wrath upon the unbelievers on the last day, He will also bring the riches of glory on all the Elect whom He predestined from the foundation of the world. Here we read that His vessels of mercy were prepared beforehand. The word “afore” carries with it the meaning of “before prepared.” God had written the names of those He planned to save in the Lamb’s Book of Life from the foundation of the world and finalized their salvation when the Lord Jesus Christ went to the cross and cried out “It is finished.” Now the only thing the believer looks forward to is the consummation of the age when God will give us our new spiritual bodies for eternity.https://www.scionofzion.com/romans9_23-33.htm

 

[Angelo]

The overall doctrinal theme that Paul seeks to demonstrate is that God is righteous. In spite of all that happens in this world—even though all men are sinful. Romans 1:8–3:20

even though God does not punish but forgives guilty sinners. Romans 3:1–5:21

even though believers may not fully live in a way consistent with God’s righteousness. Romans 6:1–8:17

even though believers suffer and final redemption is delayed. Romans 8:18–39

even though many Jews do not believe. Romans 9:1–11:36


Still God is perfectly righteous, and by His grace has forgiven us. Because of this great mercy from an all-righteous God, we should live a pattern of life consistent with God’s own righteousness.
Romans 12:1–16:27

 

[TibiasDad]

Those in Eph 2:3 the children of wrath by nature, they were not the vessels of wrath created for destruction. They instead were chosen in Christ before the foundation, to be holy and without blame, in love Predestined to the adoption of children Eph 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

But with the vessels of wrath in Rom 9, God made them for His wrath and destruction for their sin

Vessels of wrath are children of wrath who don’t repent of their sins, those who refuse to acknowledge their sin and the sacrifice Christ made for them. There is hope for all who will repent.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Vessels of wrath are children of wrath who don’t repent of their sins

The vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction, are a different group of people than the children of Wrath by nature, the children of wrath by nature are the elect by nature B4 conversion and regeneration. The vessels of Wrath are the non-elect who God made for destruction.

 

[TedT]

The vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction, are a different group of people than the children of Wrath by nature, the children of wrath by nature are the elect by nature B4 conversion and regeneration. The vessels of Wrath are the non-elect who God made for destruction.

Do you not think that Jn 3:18 sinful believers are not / are never condemned suggest that the sinful elect are never under the wrath of GOD but only under HIS promise of election?

 

[brightfame52]

Do you not think that Jn 3:18 sinful believers are not / are never condemned suggest that the sinful elect are never under the wrath of GOD but only under HIS promise of election?

No the elect for whom Christ died are never under wrath or condemned.

 

[Angelo]

In Scripture, the basic meaning of the terms predestination and election is the same: to mark out beforehand for a special purpose and blessing. On what basis? The sole reason that is always given is foreknowledge.

So declare both Peter and Paul: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son …” (Romans 8: 29); “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience …” (1 Peter 1: 2). It seems that God predestined certain blessings for those He foreknew would believe the gospel and be saved.

The heavenly Father planned from eternity past an inheritance for those who would become His children through faith in Christ Jesus: “That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2: 7).

Never does election or predestination refer to salvation, but always and only to particular benefits. “What must be borne in mind is the fact that predestination is not God’s predetermining from past ages who should and who should not be saved. Scripture does not teach this view.”

There is no reference in these four verses [the only four that refer to predestination] to either heaven or hell, but to Christlikeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in Scripture that God predestined one man to be saved and another to be lost.”

 

[TibiasDad]

The vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction, are a different group of people than the children of Wrath by nature, the children of wrath by nature are the elect by nature B4 conversion and regeneration. The vessels of Wrath are the non-elect who God made for destruction.

Pure eisegesis!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Nowhere are we told in Scripture that God predestined one man to be saved and another to be lost.”

Amen!

Doug

 

[civic]

No the elect for whom Christ died are never under wrath or condemned.

That’s made up there is nothing in the Bible saying any such thing