Are vessels of wrath able to become vessels of mercy?

[brightfame52]

And if a potter make 2 male children engaged in sodomy. NO

And in my opinion...... if the potter brings the vessels to life to strictly torture them in death I say NO to that too.

Your Heavenly Father would never deliberately bring something to life to torture them in the end without allowing for a change in that person.

Johnnie sure has scrambles your brains aand all other double predestination people.

He WOULD however, appropriately punish those who refused what He has offered.... and there are those who simply do not want it.... BUT IT IS THEIR CHOICE

Who are you to question the Potter ? Hath not the Potter a right to do as He will ? Rom 9 19-22

 

[FreeInChrist]

The what if just means thats what He did

What if does not a question answer.

I assume you passed English, if you went to US schools?

 

[TomL]

Nothing chages, God has made some as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction, that was His will

You ignored the part of it that speaks of God's long-suffering.

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God's longsuffering

Those vessels of wrath had caused God's long-suffering; as a result, they fitted themselves for destruction.

You do not address that fact.

 

[TomL]

You havent offered nothing. God has made some as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction, no other scripture reverses that.. Show it then

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

The Jews had for the most part not believed in Christ

Did Heb 3:8 not state they provoked God?

That when they did so, they hardened their heart?

Regarding your interpretation

1 Peter 2:7–8 (UASV) — 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;” for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this very end they were also appointed.

Because of their disbelief, they become a rock of offense to Christ, who became a stone over which they stumble.

Can you show it was not their unbelief that caused Christ to be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to them?


And (και [kai]). Peter now quotes Is. 8:14 and gives a new turn to the previous quotation. To the disbelieving, Christ was indeed “a stone of stumbling (λιθος προσκομματος [lithos proskommatos]) and rock of offence (πετρα σκανδαλου [petra skandalou]),” quoted also by Paul in Rom. 9:32f., which see for discussion

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.

Note how the Greek scholar above states exactly what I did.

But you, as always, address nothing.

 

[TomL]

@TomL , while this reply is for @brightfame52 you need to read the 2nd response copied and pasted under Gemini below because it shows just how much lack of privacy Google really has.

B52, You never answer why this is a question........... and since you will read no further Ill answer it... Someone wanted to know what would be the reason God endured with much longsuffering.... for other then His being s sadist makes no sense for how you are using this verse.... 4 Ai sources explain things below. It is the 2nd one.

WHAT IF is the start of a question.

"endured with much longsuffering"

Search Assist

"Endured with much longsuffering" refers to the ability to be patient and tolerant, especially in difficult situations or while dealing with others' shortcomings. It emphasizes showing restraint and maintaining a compassionate attitude despite challenges or frustrations.

The next one is quite a different take on Ais and pay close attention to how Google watches what we say. This is a copy and paste.

​

Conversation with Gemini​

what does this mean... "endured with much longsuffering"

In the context of the discussion you're viewing on the Berean Apologetics forum, the phrase "endured with much longsuffering" comes from Romans 9:22.


To understand it, we can break it down into its linguistic and theological components:

1. Definition of Terms​

• Endured: This means to bear up under, to carry a burden, or to tolerate something difficult without immediate reaction.
• Longsuffering: This is a classic biblical term (the Greek word makrothumia) which literally means "long-tempered." It describes the emotional self-restraint one shows when provoked. It is the opposite of being "short-fused."

2. The Context of the Debate​

The users in the forum are debating Calvinism vs. Arminianism, specifically regarding how God treats "vessels of wrath":

• The Argument for Patience: One side (like the user FreeInChrist) argues that God's "longsuffering" indicates a delay in judgment. The intent of this delay is to provide a window of time for people to repent and turn to Him.
• The Argument for Sovereignty: The other side (like brightfame52) argues that even if God is patient, these "vessels" were ultimately "fitted for destruction" to demonstrate His power and justice.

3. Practical Meaning​

Outside of theology, to "endure with much longsuffering" means to stay patient and kind even when you have every right to be angry or to end a situation. It implies:

• Restraint: Choosing not to act on anger immediately.
• Duration: Holding that restraint for a long period of time.
• Compassion: Maintaining a level of tolerance despite being repeatedly provoked.

In short, it is the act of waiting a long time before allowing a consequence to happen, usually out of a desire to give the other party a chance to change.
( The color change is me for emphasis)

Would you like me to summarize the specific arguments TomL or brightfame52 are making regarding this verse in the thread?

Grok

The phrase "endured with much longsuffering" comes from the Bible, specifically Romans 9:22 in the King James Version (KJV):


In modern translations, it's often rendered as "endured with much patience" or "bore with great patience."

Breaking it down:​

• Endured → God patiently bore, tolerated, or put up with (something or someone) over a prolonged period.
• With much longsuffering → "Longsuffering" (from the Greek makrothumia) literally means "long of temper" or "slow to anger." It describes a quality of great patience, forbearance, or restraint in the face of provocation, injury, or opposition—especially holding back anger or judgment when it would be justified to act immediately.

Combined, "endured with much longsuffering" means God patiently tolerated or bore with (in this context, sinful people described as "vessels of wrath fitted/prepared for destruction") for a long time, exercising extraordinary self-restraint and delaying judgment despite their deserving of it. This highlights God's immense patience toward sinners, even those ultimately headed toward destruction, to demonstrate His character, power, and wrath in due time.

In broader biblical context:​

"Longsuffering" is a key attribute of God (e.g., Exodus 34:6 calls Him "longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth") and one of the fruits of the Spirit for believers (Galatians 5:22). It goes beyond mere passive waiting—it's an active, enduring restraint rooted in mercy and purpose.

In short: It conveys God patiently putting up with rebellion or sin for an extended time, with great forbearance, rather than immediately punishing. Modern equivalents might be "bore with great patience" or "exercised much long-suffering endurance."

ChatGPT
“Endured” means put up with, tolerated, or bore patiently.
“Longsuffering” means patience over a long time, especially toward people who deserve judgment.


So together, the phrase means:




It carries the idea that:

• God had the right to punish,
• but delayed His judgment,
• showing patience, restraint, and mercy,
• giving time for repentance.

In everyday terms, it’s like:

In Romans 9:22 specifically​

When Paul says God “endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath,” it suggests:

• God did not create them just to destroy them immediately,
• He tolerated their rebellion for a long time,
• which implies opportunity to repent, not instant condemnation.

So the phrase actually highlights God’s patience, not harsh predestination.

Very short summary​

“Endured with much longsuffering” = God patiently delayed judgment even though they deserved it.

Indeed, this is not about God having determined their action.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You ignored the part of it that speaks of God's long-suffering.

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God's longsuffering

Those vessels of wrath had caused God's long-suffering; as a result, they fitted themselves for destruction.

1000% correct and God gave them the time and opportunity to repent and turn to Him... those who didnot have only themselves to blame.

You do not address that fact.

 

[atpollard]

Are vessels of wrath able to become vessels of mercy?​

Sure, why not.

• Luke 18:27 [NASB] But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."

• Ezekiel 18:21-23 [NASB] "But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?"

• Ephesians 2:1-4 [NASB] And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, ...

 

[brightfame52]

What if does not a question answer.

I assume you passed English, if you went to US schools?

Again, the what if introduces exactly what He did and what He wanted to do as the Potter

 

[brightfame52]

You ignored the part of it that speaks of God's long-suffering.

Nothing changes, Rom 9:22 supports what Im telling you. God wanted to make some of mankind and make them vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction, and He did. The longsuffering doesn't change nothing. Just like with Pharoah, God suffered long with him before He finally destroyed him, yet that was the very reason He raised him up to power from the womb, to destroy him

 

[brightfame52]

1000% correct and God gave them the time and opportunity to repent and turn to Him.

No He didnt, and if He wanted them to repent, He would have gave them repentance. Only God gives repentance Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Tim 2 25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

[TomL]

Nothing changes, Rom 9:22 supports what Im telling you. God wanted to make some of mankind and make them vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction, and He did. The longsuffering doesn't change nothing. Just like with Pharoah, God suffered long with him before He finally destroyed him, yet that was the very reason He raised him up to power from the womb, to destroy him

Wrong

They cause longsuffering in God who eventually treats them as vessels of wrath

Romans 9:22 (NIV84) — 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

 

[TomL]

1000% correct and God gave them the time and opportunity to repent and turn to Him... those who didnot have only themselves to blame.

God does indeed give time and opportunity to repent.

 

[brightfame52]

Wrong

Nothing changes. God bears long with the wicked because He hasnt finished using them for His purposes, and as long as He suffers with them it multiplies their guilt which is His plan as well Rom 2:4-5

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Treasurest up is the greek word thēsaurizō:

1. to gather and lay up, to heap up, store up
   
   1. to accumulate riches
   2. to keep in store, store up, reserve

metaphorically, so to live from day to day as to increase either the bitterness or the happiness of one's consequent lot:

Its a presnt tense active indicative

So the longsuffering works to their disadvantage in the end, instead of being punished for lets say 100,000 sins, it goes up to 100,000.000

Because they are vessels of wrath He isnt going to give them repentance.

 

[FreeInChrist]

God does indeed give time and opportunity to repent.

Yes sir. I lived it, I know ......

 

[TomL]

Nothing changes. God bears long with the wicked because He hasnt finished using them for His purposes, and as long as He suffers with them it multiplies their guilt which is His plan as well Rom 2:4-5

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Treasurest up is the greek word thēsaurizō:

1. to gather and lay up, to heap up, store up
   1. to accumulate riches
   2. to keep in store, store up, reserve

metaphorically, so to live from day to day as to increase either the bitterness or the happiness of one's consequent lot:

Its a presnt tense active indicative

So the longsuffering works to their disadvantage in the end, instead of being punished for lets say 100,000 sins, it goes up to 100,000.000

Because they are vessels of wrath He isnt going to give them repentance.

Nothing at all about God making anyone of an original hardness or of an impenitent heart in the passage

Romans 2:4–5 (NIV84) — 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

One who is stubborn and unrepentant will face wrath when judgment is revealed.

 

[TomL]

Yes sir. I lived it, I know ......View attachment 2829

Amen

 

[FreeInChrist]

Nothing at all about God making anyone of an original hardness or of an impenitent heart in the passage

Romans 2:4–5 (NIV84) — 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

One who is stubborn and unrepentant will face wrath when judgment is revealed.

"not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?"

The best verse posted all day. And not even seen by the one who denies everything

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing at all about God making anyone of an original hardness or of an impenitent heart in the passage

The vessels of wrath hearts are naturally hard as is all mankind. But unfortunate for them God made them for wrath and hell and destruction, He withholds repentance from them and they accumulate guilt as He fattens them up for destructin, He sets them in slippery places Ps 73 17-19

17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.

18 ;Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The vessels of wrath hearts are naturally hard as is all mankind. But unfortunate for them God made them for wrath and hell and destruction, He withholds repentance from them and they accumulate guilt as He fattens them up for destructin, He sets them in slippery places Ps 73 17-19

17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.

18 ;Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.

Who was Jesus sent to when he said " "I was not sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.?"

And why did he have to be sent?

 

[atpollard]

"not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?"

The best verse posted all day. And not even seen by the one who denies everything

"not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance" is in many ways, a double-edged sword. For those that find the "narrow gate", it is the hope of the thief on the cross - forgiveness where none was expected or merited. For those steadfast in following the "wide road to destruction" - how much more terrible is the rejection of "so great a salvation" from one whose kindness was so steadfast in its call to repentance.