Are vessels of wrath able to become vessels of mercy?

[TomL]

How ? Not one of them says a word you say ?

Lets see

This shows the falsity of your claim;y

You ignored scripture

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

The Jews had for the most part had not believed on Christ

Did Heb 3:8 not state they provoked God?

That when they did so they hardened their heart?

regarding your interpretation

1 Peter 2:7–8 (UASV) — 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;” for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this very end they were also appointed.

Because of their disbelief, they become a rock of offense to Christ who became a stone over which they stumble.

Can you show it was not their unbelief that caused Christ to be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to them?


And (και [kai]). Peter now quotes Is. 8:14 and gives a new turn to the previous quotation. To the disbelieving, Christ was indeed “a stone of stumbling (λιθος προσκομματος [lithos proskommatos]) and rock of offence (πετρα σκανδαλου [petra skandalou]),” quoted also by Paul in Rom. 9:32f., which see for discussion

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.

Note how the greek scholar above states exactly what I did.

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word willing in the greek is thelō:
to will, have in mind, intend

1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
2. to desire, to wish
3. to love

Click to expand...

That just shows some are vessels of wrath. It does not state God predetermined them to be born vessels of wrath

i.e. those that are disobedient

Same word used here

1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Of course 1 Tim 2:4 is His will for the elect vessels of mercy, but Rom 9 22 is His will for the non elect vessels of wrath

1 Tim 2:4 speaks of all men and says nothing about any unconditionally elect

further

1 Timothy 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

shows Christ was given for all.

The disobedience of the unbelieving however excludes them from benefitting.

 

[TomL]

Its the will of God that some He made as Vessels of Wrath and fits them for destruction. Rom 9:22

The text simply states vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction

Romans 9:22 (NASB 95) — 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

It does not state God determined and made them disobedient vessels of wrath

God, however, notes their disobedience and unbelief.

Rom 10:21 But as for Israel, He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Rom 9:30–33 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

 

[TomL]

For what ?

1 Scripture tells us that God has a desire for the salvation of all.

2 Disbelief is the reason they are made vessels of wrath.

3. God has pleasure when men believe.

You address nothing as usual.

Why as you address none of this there?

Why do you constantly offer only bald denial.

You failed to address scripture not addressing a single point.

First, according to scripture, God desires all to be saved

Do you deny that, or will you, as usual, just ignore an answer?

1 Tim 2:3–4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Ezek 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

If he desires all to be saved, how consistent is it if he determines they will be lost?

Will you ever addresss this?

It appears you never will.

second

1 Peter 2:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 For this is contained in Scripture: “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

It is their disbelief that is the reason for their doom.

You failed to address this

Third

When one believes God is pleased
.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him

God is pleased when men believe and are then regenerated

And that person is not left in the flesh

Believers are not in the flesh when they believe but are when remaining in unbelief

In your theology, God chooses, saves, regenerates those in the flesh.

Where does scripture provide support for that belief you have?

Unlike your approach, scriptures contrary to your view are posted, and your verses are addressed.

The Jews of Romans 9 in case you forgot were involved in denying Christ.

And those who do not believe are not made alive, contrary to your theology.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[FreeInChrist]

If he desires all to be saved, how consistent is it if he determines they will be lost?

Will you ever addresss this

You know he wont, but this is most likely the best question I have ever read challenging "double'' predestination on any forum and if I incorporate into my growing signature will give you the credit. It is concise and to the point.

But wonder if anyone would reply if this was made into a thread?????

 

[brightfame52]

But Rom 9:33 says the believers didn't stumble.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So nothing says anyone was unconditionally destined to stumble.

Election is real, but it is not unconditional.

Lol you dont know what to say now

 

[brightfame52]

Lets see

okay because so far you shooting blanks

 

[brightfame52]

The text simply states vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction

Yep God made them for destruction

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture tells us that God has a desire for the salvation of all.

The elect. His will for the vessels of wrath He created is wrath and destruction Rom 9 22

 

[TomL]

The elect. His will for the vessels of wrath He created is wrath and destruction Rom 9 22

Nope

1 Scripture tells us that God has a desire for the salvation of all.

2 Disbelief is the reason they are made vessels of wrath.

3. God has pleasure when men believe.

You address nothing as usual.

Why as you address none of this there?

Why do you constantly offer only bald denial.

You failed to address scripture, not addressing a single point.

First, according to scripture, God desires all to be saved

Do you deny that, or will you, as usual, just ignore an answer?

1 Tim 2:3–4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Ezek 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezek 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

If he desires all to be saved, how consistent is it if he determines they will be lost?

Will you ever addresss this?

It appears you never will.

You in fact did not nor did you address the rest

second

1 Peter 2:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 For this is contained in Scripture: “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

It is their disbelief that is the reason for their doom.

You failed to address this

Third

When one believes God is pleased
.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him

God is pleased when men believe and are then regenerated

And that person is not left in the flesh

Believers are not in the flesh when they believe but are when remaining in unbelief

In your theology, God chooses, saves, regenerates those in the flesh.

Where does scripture provide support for that belief you have?

Unlike your approach, scriptures contrary to your view are posted, and your verses are addressed.

The Jews of Romans 9 in case you forgot were involved in denying Christ.

And those who do not believe are not made alive, contrary to your theology.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[TomL]

Yep God made them for destruction

Nope

The text simply states vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction

Romans 9:22 (NASB 95) — 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

It does not state God determined and made them disobedient vessels of wrath

God, however, notes their disobedience and unbelief.
Rom 10:21 But as for Israel, He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Rom 9:30–33 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

 

[TomL]

okay because so far you shooting blanks

LOL I post a multiplicity of scripture and you simply ignore it

This shows the falsity of your claim;y

You ignored scripture

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

The Jews had for the most part had not believed on Christ

Did Heb 3:8 not state they provoked God?

That when they did so they hardened their heart?

regarding your interpretation

1 Peter 2:7–8 (UASV) — 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;” for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this very end they were also appointed.

Because of their disbelief, they become a rock of offense to Christ who became a stone over which they stumble.

Can you show it was not their unbelief that caused Christ to be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to them?


And (και [kai]). Peter now quotes Is. 8:14 and gives a new turn to the previous quotation. To the disbelieving, Christ was indeed “a stone of stumbling (λιθος προσκομματος [lithos proskommatos]) and rock of offence (πετρα σκανδαλου [petra skandalou]),” quoted also by Paul in Rom. 9:32f., which see for discussion

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.

Note how the greek scholar above states exactly what I did.

There is a blank shooter here but it is you

 

[TomL]

You know he wont, but this is most likely the best question I have ever read challenging "double'' predestination on any forum and if I incorporate into my growing signature will give you the credit.View attachment 2827 It is concise and to the point.

But wonder if anyone would reply if this was made into a thread?????

Yep! He never addresses anything contrary to his view

 

[brightfame52]

Nope

Yes Gods will was to make some men as vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction, that was their purpose for entering this earth Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[brightfame52]

LOL I post a multiplicity of scripture and you simply ignore it

And not nah one say anything close to what you said. Blanks

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes Gods will was to make some men as vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction, that was their purpose for entering this earth Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, endured with much longsuffering the vessels fitted to destruction:

Explain this long suffering in this question..... You ignored it before now is the time to rise and shine and explain.

But since you wont I'll tell you why, and not just you but others who may be reading this ...... Because I think there is a 90% chance you wont bother for fear of starting to understand the truth,

Romans 9:22 says that God “endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction,” and that word longsuffering (makrothumia) means patient restraint or delaying judgment, not immediate doom.

If these people were deliberately created only to be damned with no real opportunity to repent, then longsuffering would make no sense — there would be nothing to wait for.

But throughout Scripture, God’s patience always has a purpose: it gives space for repentance (Romans 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9) and shows that He is slow to anger and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 33:11).

PAY ATTENTION TO THIS.
Even the grammar supports this, since Paul says God actively “prepared beforehand” the vessels of mercy, but simply describes the vessels of wrath as “fitted to destruction,” without stating that God fitted them, suggesting their condition rather than His direct causation.

So the most natural reading is not that God made people solely for damnation, but that He patiently endures sinful people, giving opportunity to turn, and only judges after prolonged mercy.

iF YOU WANT TO WE CAN GO THROUGH THIS 1 SENTENCE AT A TIME.....

 

[TomL]

And not nah one say anything close to what you said. Blanks

You fail to actually address any such thing

LOL I post a multiplicity of scripture and you simply ignore it

This shows the falsity of your claim.

You ignored scripture

Again you ignore the reason for their continued hardening

Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

The Jews had for the most part had not believed on Christ

Did Heb 3:8 not state they provoked God?

That when they did so they hardened their heart?

regarding your interpretation

1 Peter 2:7–8 (UASV) — 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;” for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this very end they were also appointed.

Because of their disbelief, they become a rock of offense to Christ who became a stone over which they stumble.

Can you show it was not their unbelief that caused Christ to be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to them?


And (και [kai]). Peter now quotes Is. 8:14 and gives a new turn to the previous quotation. To the disbelieving, Christ was indeed “a stone of stumbling (λιθος προσκομματος [lithos proskommatos]) and rock of offence (πετρα σκανδαλου [petra skandalou]),” quoted also by Paul in Rom. 9:32f., which see for discussion

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), 1 Pe 2:8.

Note how the greek scholar above states exactly what I did.

There is a blank shooter here but it is you

 

[TomL]

Yes Gods will was to make some men as vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction, that was their purpose for entering this earth Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

It states he endured them with longsuffering.

Did he enjoy making himself suffer?

You show you are incapable of comprehending what is written.

 

[FreeInChrist]

It states he endured them with longsuffering.

Did he enjoy making himself suffer?

You show you are incapable of comprehending what is written.

I honestl;y dont think he reads anything that is not supporting him.

That is why he never challenges specific scripture posted because he either has never read it or it is veiled to him.

 

[brightfame52]

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, endured with much longsuffering the vessels fitted to destruction:

Explain this long suffering in this question..... You ignored it before now is the time to rise and shine and explain.

Ive explained what I need to explain and you don't receive it. Rom 9:22 states God is willing, its His will to make some people as vessels of wrath, to make His Power Known, and fit them for destruction.

 

[brightfame52]

You fail to actually address any such thing

You have failed to show one scripture that stated what you stated.