Sorry your theology falsifies the doctrine of the trinity
There is but one God who consist of three persons who cannot be divided
Appeasement of a Monster God?
- Thread starter Fitzpatrick
- Start date
There is but one God who consist of three persons who cannot be divided
Seriously?
'
Do you really imagine the trinity can be likened to Abraham and Isaac?
your comprehension of it is quite lacking.
By God not stepping in and stopping it, is He not giving His approval? It doesn't say in Isaiah that the Father simply crushed Him, but that it pleased Him. That can equate to ALLOWING the situation. And, understand, I still believe it is what was dropped on the human nature, not on God Himself, as God is still Spirit dwelling within the fleshly body of Christ. Two natures, flesh/spirit, human/deity. What is inflicted on the flesh, should that automatically be equated as also being on the spirit, on the Word? That which is inflected on the humanity/flesh, should that automatically be equated as being on the deity?
Due to all of these extras, is there any reason not to accept the possibility that Jesus faced God's wrath at the human level, due to God's inability to have anything to do with sin? At the level of the flesh? All those things done to Jesus were inflicted upon the body. Upon the flesh.
He could have stopped His wrath... Jesus accepted the wrath willingly. How do we know that He knew? He sweat drops of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane. He knew what the Father had for Him, asked if the Father would let it pass, but, in full humility and surrender, followed the will of the Father.
Another way to understand it is that God was behind Christ's crucifixion and by/through/in it was reconciling with the world. Jesus didn't die for us (I didn't say our sin), He died for God. He placated God, made atonement for us to God. That is the HIGH view. Jesus died for us that we might live, but when you look at it from as far as you can pull away, Jesus died for God, that God may reconcile with us.
Consider Isaiah 53. Also consider that many claim that the Septuagint is not perfect because the king who had it made brought in people who were not scholars, stuck them in rooms and had them translate the Jewish scripture into Greek, which some say goes against the law of God in the first place. (I don't know about all that, but it casts more doubt on the Septaugint then I already had. Such as, it is said that the Jews softened Isaiah 53 because it didn't match their view/belief of the Messiah.)
So given Isaiah 53, we see the dynamic that exists in what happened. Since we have this, and we have the crucifixion history in the gospels, something was happening. We may have difficulty understanding/accepting what that is, but we can know before God that something happened. We can also know that whatever that is, it doesn't violate God in any way, shape, or form. If we can't explain how, or why, then all we can do is accept that God knew what He was doing, and He would not violate Himself. Our translations of scripture mean nothing in light of what God KNOWS of scripture, given that He wrote it through inspiration. So if our understanding of scripture seems to violate God, then, obviously, our understanding is fundamentally flawed. Go with scripture. Our understanding is automatically fundamentally flawed = 10 simply because we are human. That number only goes down some when we replace our understanding with scripture. It only goes down a little because we are prone to interpret scripture through our fundamentally flawed understanding.
Dizerner
Well-known member
I guess Paul's was "lacking" too since he said Isaac's return from the dead was a parable
There is no ontological break just because Jesus bears the wrath of our sins.
Anyone who keeps repeating that lie is "quite lacking" in comprehension.
It's as nonsensical as saying because Jesus died there was a "division" in the Trinity, a Muslim and atheist argument.
civic
Well-known member
Nowhere on scripture does it say wrath was placed on the Son from the Father.
Why would you believe what the Bible never says ?
The point is this. If one has difficulty understanding/accepting wrath for whatever reason, don't get stuck on it. Something happened, and we have scripture testifying to that. (Isaiah 53 is a great throw back). If you have difficulty understanding/accepting that, trust God. It happened, and it worked because God does not/will not violate Himself. So, if the Bible says that God poured out His wrath on his Son, then God poured out His wrath on His Son, full stop. If interpreting this causes you to believe that it did not happen, stop interpreting it. Accept what God said happened, even when you can't understand it. We don't matter. Our thoughts on it don't matter. Only the truth of what God has said matters. Trust God. He will not steer you wrong. The only thing that matters absolutely is the cross, and Christ crucified. If you don't lose sight of that and what it means, the rest falls into place.
When Jesus claimed to be God and then asked the people for what work they sought to kill him. He was teaching them a lesson. He knew why they wanted to kill him. They knew why the wanted to kill him. When all was said and done, what did Jesus say mattered? Accept/believe in the works. Why? His works testified to who He claimed to be, so, rationally, to accept/believe His works is tacitly accepting that testimony, even if one could not bring themselves to explicitly believing/accepting His words.
(I know it is a little (a lot?) more complicated then that, but the point is, if you have trouble understanding in and of yourself the wrath of God present at the crucifixion, let go of your understanding, and accept that whatever happened was according to God's will, so it doesn't matter what we think anyway. It can be difficult to impossible to picture exactly how it worked, but scripture says it happened, scripture was written by God, so trust God where your understanding falls short.
Dizerner
Well-known member
It's a clear deduction just like nowhere the Bible says "God is a Trinity" or "Jesus is God" or "Hell is eternal" or "Free will exists."
You are demanding something be stated in your own personally preferred way, instead of being stated in any way at all.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Eh, I appreciate your intent to help people, but I think you are compromising on the matter.
I agree people should accept that Jesus did pay the penalty for their sins even if they deny that means wrath, however I don't think that compromise should ever in any way be encouraged or approved of.
It's not like we just tell people to disbelieve anything in Christianity if they don't like it or struggle with it, so they can still call themselves "Christian."
It may be a forgivable offense to deny the wrath of God, but it should never in any way be condoned.
civic
Well-known member
Nothing clear about it and if it was important as you claim then why did Jesus and the Apostles forgot to mention something so necessary to one’s salvation ?
Next
More translation trouble I am afraid
Septuagint - Psalm 21: - For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.
Vulgate - Psalm 21:1 - Unto the end, for the morning protection, a psalm for David.
Psalm 21:2 - O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins
What ?!
Transgressions, sins ??????????????????????? Jesus? Nooooooooooooooooo.
Meaning those translations are not about Jesus but about David after all.
And now I am really confused.
It is you who lack comprehension in that you affirm the father is wrathful unto the son and retributively punishes and forsakes him creating a separation in the trinity
civic
Well-known member
yes indeed which should send RED FLAG WARNINGS to anyone affirming or considering PSA.
It is extremely difficult to see how they can affirm what is clearly a separation between God the Father and God the son as touted below
The marring and disfigurement in view here are of course a description of what took place immediately prior to our Lord’s crucifixion, while he was on trial. Jesus’s disfigurement actually began in Gethsemane on the night of his betrayal and arrest. Scripture describes the deep, inward anguish and utter physical exhaustion he experienced as the sinless Son of God contemplated sin bearing and separation from his Father. The Gospel according to God - John McArthur
At that moment on the cross, as Jesus Christ carried on His holy shoulders the sins of the world, the rebellion, and all the worst things we can imagine, the Father could not look upon sin. The Bible says that His eyes are too pure to look on sin, and He could not see the sin that His Son was carrying. For that moment, there was a separation in the Godhead between the Father and the Son.
That is what made Jesus weep in Gethsemane, knowing what was coming—that moment of separation for which He was born. That was the true pain of the cross; that was the sacrifice of the cross. That sounds like a divided Trinity to me. In Michael Youssef's own words, there is a separation between the Father and the Son—there is division in the Godhead. God's Wrath in PSA - Answering Mike Winger E10
He didn’t just feel forsaken—He was forsaken.
For Jesus to become the curse, He had to be utterly, totally, and completely forsaken by the Father. RC Sproul
If there ever was an obscenity that violates contemporary community standards, it was Jesus on the cross. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. Jesus was the ultimate obscenity.
So what happened? God is too holy to look at sin. He could not bear to look at that concentrated monumental condensation of evil, so he averted his eyes from his Son. The light of his countenance was turned off. All blessedness was removed from his Son, whom he loved, and in its place was the full measure of the divine curse.
Jesus Was Forsaken
At midday he turned the lights out on the hill outside of Jerusalem so that when his face moved away, when the light of his countenance shut down, even the sun couldn't shine on Calvary. Bearing the full measure of the curse, Christ screamed, "Eli, Eli lema sabachthani," that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46).
Jesus took that occasion to identify with the psalmist in Psalm 22 in order to call attention to those looking upon the spectacle that what they were witnessing was really a fulfillment of prophecy. I don't think Jesus was in a Bible-quoting mood at the time. His cry was not, as Albert Schweitzer opined, the cry of a disillusioned prophet who had believed that God was going to rescue him at the eleventh hour and then felt forsaken. He didn't just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. For Jesus to become the curse, he had to be completely forsaken by the Father. Forsaken: Jesus Became A Curse by R.C. Sproul
For Jesus to become the curse, he had to be completely forsaken by the Father
https://www.monergism.com › far-curse-found
The cross was the supreme circumcision. When Jesus took the curse on Himself and so identified with our sin that He became a curse, God cut Him off, and justly so. At the moment when Christ took on Himself the sin of the world, His figure on the cross was the most grotesque, most obscene mass of concentrated sin in the history of the world. God is too holy to look on iniquity, so when Christ hung on the cross, the Father, as it were, turned His back. He averted His face and He cut off His Son. Jesus, Who, touching His human nature, had been in a perfect, blessed relationship with God throughout His ministry, now bore the sin of God’s people, and so He was forsaken by God. RC Sproul The Crucifixion and Old Testament Prophecy | Effectual Grace
civic
Well-known member
Untenable
Their claims were untenable.
civic
Well-known member
fixed it
civic
Well-known member
This sounds "good " and there may be itchy ears hearing/listening to the above but there is something missing from all this reasoning.
SCRIPTURE.
There are no scriptures supporting PSA and Jesus and the Apostles not once mentioned Jesus suffering Gods wrath.
Its an argument made from silence at best.
Now here is an ongoing 3 year study refuting PSA with Scripture. You might want to see the biblical view of the atonement based upon Scripture and exegesis.
hope this helps !!!
Darrell L.
New member
The concept of the "wrath of God" holds a central role in Christian theology as it underscores God's holiness, justice, and response to human sin. It reflects His divine opposition to all that is morally wrong or corrupt, emphasizing that sin cannot coexist with His perfect nature.
Theologically, God's wrath isn't seen as impulsive anger but as a deliberate and just response to rebellion against His moral law. It's a way of demonstrating the seriousness of sin and the consequences it brings. At the same time, Christian theology teaches that God desires redemption rather than destruction. This is where the significance of Jesus Christ comes in.
In Christian belief, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is seen as absorbing the wrath of God on behalf of humanity. His death is viewed as an act of love and mercy, providing a way for believers to be reconciled to God. Through faith in Jesus, Christians are said to be justified and spared from the consequences of sin, experiencing God's grace instead of His wrath.
This theological framework highlights the balance between God's justice and His love, offering a profound picture of redemption and hope. If you'd like, I can delve deeper into specific biblical texts or theological interpretations related to this!
Jesus' sacrifice is pivotal in Christian theology because it addresses God's wrath in a profound way. The Bible teaches that God's holiness and justice demand that sin be punished, but His love and mercy provide a way for humanity to be redeemed. This is where Jesus' role as the Savior becomes significant.
By willingly dying on the cross, Jesus bore the consequences of sin for all humanity. In doing so, He absorbed God's wrath—meaning, He took upon Himself the punishment that was meant for sinners. This act is described as "atonement," a term that signifies reconciliation between humanity and God. Jesus' sacrifice is understood as satisfying God's justice, while also demonstrating His boundless love and grace.
Christians believe that through faith in Jesus, they are spared from the wrath of God and can instead experience His forgiveness and restoration. It's an extraordinary theological moment where justice and mercy meet, offering hope and salvation to believers.
Would you like to explore specific Bible verses or theological concepts related to this further? Alrighty then lets dig in.
Here are some Bible verses that discuss Jesus' sacrifice and God's wrath:
John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Isaiah 53:5: "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds, we are healed."
Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Ephesians 1:7: "In him, we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."
1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds, you have been healed."
These verses highlight the profound love and grace of God, as well as the significance of Jesus' sacrifice in addressing sin and reconciling humanity with God. If you'd like, I can explore more verses or provide commentary on these as this is one of my favorite topics!
These verses connect to the concept of God's wrath by emphasizing how Jesus' sacrifice addresses and satisfies divine justice, transforming wrath into grace for believers. Here's how they relate:
John 3:16: While this verse highlights God's love, it also implies the consequence of perishing (God's wrath) for those who reject His offer of salvation. Jesus' sacrifice becomes the means by which humanity can avoid that judgment and receive eternal life.
Isaiah 53:5: This verse directly points to Jesus bearing the punishment for humanity's sins—punishment that reflects God's wrath against sin. By taking this upon Himself, Jesus restores peace between God and humanity.
Romans 5:8: Here, God's wrath is implicit in the understanding that sin deserves punishment. Christ's death demonstrates God's love in that He provided a way to satisfy His own justice, sparing humanity from the wrath they deserved.
Ephesians 1:7: The concept of redemption through Jesus' blood indicates that humanity is saved from the consequences of sin, which includes separation from God and His wrath. Jesus' sacrifice is the act that brings forgiveness and reconciliation.
1 Peter 2:24: This verse shows how Jesus' death enables believers to "die to sins and live for righteousness," freeing them from the penalty of sin. God's wrath is dealt with through Jesus' suffering, allowing believers to experience healing and restoration.
Together, these verses illustrate the tension between God's justice (which requires dealing with sin) and His love (which provides a path of mercy). In Christian theology, Jesus' sacrifice resolves this tension, fulfilling the demands of justice and offering grace instead of wrath. Would you like a deeper dive into any specific aspect of this post?
Theologically, God's wrath isn't seen as impulsive anger but as a deliberate and just response to rebellion against His moral law. It's a way of demonstrating the seriousness of sin and the consequences it brings. At the same time, Christian theology teaches that God desires redemption rather than destruction. This is where the significance of Jesus Christ comes in.
In Christian belief, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is seen as absorbing the wrath of God on behalf of humanity. His death is viewed as an act of love and mercy, providing a way for believers to be reconciled to God. Through faith in Jesus, Christians are said to be justified and spared from the consequences of sin, experiencing God's grace instead of His wrath.
This theological framework highlights the balance between God's justice and His love, offering a profound picture of redemption and hope. If you'd like, I can delve deeper into specific biblical texts or theological interpretations related to this!
Jesus' sacrifice is pivotal in Christian theology because it addresses God's wrath in a profound way. The Bible teaches that God's holiness and justice demand that sin be punished, but His love and mercy provide a way for humanity to be redeemed. This is where Jesus' role as the Savior becomes significant.
By willingly dying on the cross, Jesus bore the consequences of sin for all humanity. In doing so, He absorbed God's wrath—meaning, He took upon Himself the punishment that was meant for sinners. This act is described as "atonement," a term that signifies reconciliation between humanity and God. Jesus' sacrifice is understood as satisfying God's justice, while also demonstrating His boundless love and grace.
Christians believe that through faith in Jesus, they are spared from the wrath of God and can instead experience His forgiveness and restoration. It's an extraordinary theological moment where justice and mercy meet, offering hope and salvation to believers.
Would you like to explore specific Bible verses or theological concepts related to this further? Alrighty then lets dig in.
Here are some Bible verses that discuss Jesus' sacrifice and God's wrath:
John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Isaiah 53:5: "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds, we are healed."
Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Ephesians 1:7: "In him, we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."
1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds, you have been healed."
These verses highlight the profound love and grace of God, as well as the significance of Jesus' sacrifice in addressing sin and reconciling humanity with God. If you'd like, I can explore more verses or provide commentary on these as this is one of my favorite topics!
These verses connect to the concept of God's wrath by emphasizing how Jesus' sacrifice addresses and satisfies divine justice, transforming wrath into grace for believers. Here's how they relate:
John 3:16: While this verse highlights God's love, it also implies the consequence of perishing (God's wrath) for those who reject His offer of salvation. Jesus' sacrifice becomes the means by which humanity can avoid that judgment and receive eternal life.
Isaiah 53:5: This verse directly points to Jesus bearing the punishment for humanity's sins—punishment that reflects God's wrath against sin. By taking this upon Himself, Jesus restores peace between God and humanity.
Romans 5:8: Here, God's wrath is implicit in the understanding that sin deserves punishment. Christ's death demonstrates God's love in that He provided a way to satisfy His own justice, sparing humanity from the wrath they deserved.
Ephesians 1:7: The concept of redemption through Jesus' blood indicates that humanity is saved from the consequences of sin, which includes separation from God and His wrath. Jesus' sacrifice is the act that brings forgiveness and reconciliation.
1 Peter 2:24: This verse shows how Jesus' death enables believers to "die to sins and live for righteousness," freeing them from the penalty of sin. God's wrath is dealt with through Jesus' suffering, allowing believers to experience healing and restoration.
Together, these verses illustrate the tension between God's justice (which requires dealing with sin) and His love (which provides a path of mercy). In Christian theology, Jesus' sacrifice resolves this tension, fulfilling the demands of justice and offering grace instead of wrath. Would you like a deeper dive into any specific aspect of this post?
civic
Well-known member
And God ( the Father) was in Christ reconciling the world into Himself.
There was no abandonment, forsaking with the Father towards the Son. It was done by the Godhead together in perfect unity , Tri- Unity.
