And All Israel Shall Be Saved!

[jeremiah1five]

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Two things to note. When Paul speaks of Spirit in verse 3, he speaks of faith. When he speaks of the Flesh, he speaks of the Law. So again, what you say about the Law and covenants means nothing. Paul comes right out and condemns the Gentiles here for coming to Christ in faith, but listening to the Judaizers believing they are perfected by the Flesh/Law. Also for hellens, consider it like Romans. He speaks to the cultured, next to the uncultured. It includes non-Jewish Gentiles who are a law unto themselves, who have come to Christ by faith. Paul isn't saying, there is neither Jew nor Jew, is he? Again, do note that Paul had Timothy get circumcised. Why? He was part Jew. However, Paul did not have Titus get circumcised. Why not? Titus was not Jewish, just Gentile. Would you say that Titus was not saved? Did Paul really consider a non-Jewish Gentile to be his friend, and coworker in Christ. (Quick answer... YES. I mean, Paul even wrote a book to him.)

In the verses above there is that word ethnos [Gentiles] which never means mixed race Jews, because mixed race Jews are not a race. It speaks of non-Jewish Gentiles. One can also know because it says that the blessing of Abraham (in thee all nations shall be blessed) might come on the Gentiles THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. Something important to note is that the blessings of Abraham belongs to the Jews who have faith, because they are descendants of Abraham. For the Gentile, it says the blessings come upon them through Jesus Christ, not by being descendants of Abraham. The only thing that Gentiles have in common with Abraham is faith, and it is by that faith that the blessings come upon them through Jesus Christ. I still don't get how you are so blind to this. The Abrahamic covenant is separate from the promises from which the Gentiles have blessings come upon them through Jesus Christ. How? The Abrahamic covenant has a sing, circumcision. The promise only has faith as the base. Paul had Timothy, a mixed race Jew get circumcised. Why? A mixed race Jew that had chosen his Jewish heritage. Paul had Titus NOT get circumcised. Why not? Titus was Gentile and thus not a part of the Abrahamic covenant. This speaks to the unconditional nature of the Abrahamic covenant.

Also, your ignorance truly shows through your statement that Gentiles are not biological heirs to Abraham. That is you believing that salvation is through the flesh. Biological = flesh. The Law = the flesh. Faith = the Spirit. Non-Jewish Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ by faith are SPIRITUAL descendants of Abrahams, and have thus had the blessings of the promises God made to Abraham come upon them through Jesus Christ. Not by being biological heirs to Abraham, which would make them a part of the Abrahamic covenant, but by being spiritual heirs of Abraham by faith, which puts them under the promises God made to Abraham. NOT THE COVENANT. The promise that says that all nations would be blessed through the seed of Abraham (Jesus Christ.) Again, I don't know why you seem incapable of seeing that which is hidden from natural man, as it is spiritually discerned.

Saul writes to Jews. He also addresses Jewish Christians. The subject of the Law applies to Israel not Gentiles. To the Jews Gentiles are the enemy. Gentiles are occupying their Holy Land given to them by God. Gentiles will soon destroy their Temple and their people.

When a Jew is born-again salvation which was promised them by God is finally fulfilled by God. There is justification, sanctification, faith, and imputation. These were all promised to the Jews by God. The Holy Spirit was Promised to Israel through Joel. There is no Scripture that says God promised His Spirit to Gentiles.
Nowhere.

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture affirms that called out Israel in the OT and the called out Church in the NT are One and the same. For instance Israel is call the Church Acts 7:38

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with athe angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively coracles to give unto us: 9

 

[brightfame52]

In his paper on the role of Israel, Rev Stewart shows how OT Covenant Promises to National Israel are fullfilled to the Church of the NT by the Head of the Church, Christ:

The Role of Israel (3)​

Most premillennialists and all dispensationalists apply the predictions of the OT prophets to ethnic Israel which they believe is to be restored spiritually in a future earthly millennium. One way to evaluate their system is to examine OT prophecies concerning Israel which are interpreted and applied by the Holy Spirit in the NT. Last time we considered Amos 9:11-15 and its explanation in Acts 15:13-18. This time we turn to the great promise of Jeremiah 31: “[31] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] … and I will remember their sin no more.”

With whom is the “new covenant” to be made when “the days come” (31)? It is to be made “with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah” (31, 33), that is, with those whose “fathers” God brought “out of the land of Egypt” (32). Thus, interpreting Jeremiah 31:31-34 literally and without reference to any other part of Scripture, the new covenant is to be made with national Israel and Judah (a “house” [31] and “people” [33]), the descendants of those whom God redeemed from Egypt. No mention is made of the Gentiles or a catholic church at all.

However, Jeremiah 31:31-34 is understood by the NT writers very differently. The citations in Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:16-17, in their contexts, teach us that the new covenant is established upon the sacrifice and intercession of Jesus Christ, the heavenly high priest after the order of Melchizedek. Thus the Holy Spirit declares, “Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (9:28). Can this be restricted just to ethnic Jews? Moreover, though the writer to the Hebrews has much to say about the new covenant and its relationship to Christ’s blood and His heavenly priesthood and kingship, he has nothing to say about any future earthly millennium for the physical descendents of Jacob.

When He instituted the Lord’s Supper, Christ had Jeremiah 31 in His mind: “this is my blood of the new testament [covenant], which is shed for many” (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20). Christ’s new covenant blood redeemed His people from “every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Rev. 5:9). Thus Paul tells the largely Gentile church in Corinth that at the Lord’s Table they drink “the new testament [i.e., covenant] in [Christ’s] blood” (I Cor. 11:25). Clearly, “Israel” and “Judah” in Jeremiah 31 refer to the catholic church of the NT redeemed in Christ, and not merely ethnic Jews either in our days or in a future millennium. Rev. Stewart https://cprc.co.uk/covenant-reformed-news/crnoctober2003/#role

 

[armylngst]

Scripture affirms that called out Israel in the OT and the called out Church in the NT are One and the same. For instance Israel is call the Church Acts 7:38

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with athe angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively coracles to give unto us: 9

Unless you know and understand Greek, in which case you know it means assembly and not church. Greek can be such a confusing language. I believe in progressive revelation, you should look into it.

 

[armylngst]

Saul writes to Jews. He also addresses Jewish Christians. The subject of the Law applies to Israel not Gentiles.

Hence why the Gentiles will judge the Jews for their failure to follow the Law.

To the Jews Gentiles are the enemy. Gentiles are occupying their Holy Land given to them by God. Gentiles will soon destroy their Temple and their people.

Actually, the Jews brought that all upon themselves. You know about the judgments, right? The temple was destroyed already, because Israel rejected the Messiah, and God shut them out. However, the hardness and blinding of ISRAEL is only partial, and will be removed, AFTER THE FULNESS OF THE ETHNIC GENTILES (as in, non-Jewish Gentiles) has come in. (I decided to push for the proper use of ethne).

When a Jew is born-again salvation which was promised them by God is finally fulfilled by God.

Where did God promise the Jews salvation? This should be good. I mean, we have the promise God made to Abraham, but even Paul said that that was God showing the gospel to Abraham, which speaks to the salvation of both the Jews and the non-Hebrew Genitles.

There is justification, sanctification, faith, and imputation. These were all promised to the Jews by God. The Holy Spirit was Promised to Israel through Joel. There is no Scripture that says God promised His Spirit to Gentiles.
Nowhere.

That is why Paul said that it was a mystery in the Old Testament that was revealed to him and the other apostles at that present time. You really don't get it do you? That mystery is that God is also saving the Gentiles. Even Paul shows that it is different between the two in Romans 9-11. The Gentiles are grafted into the new covenant, however, it doesn't take much for them to get themselves cut out, for they are there only by the kindness of God. The Jews were cut out because of God's severity. They rejected Him, and He is punishing them. However, Paul says that if/when the Jew changes from unbelief to belief, God will reattach them to the tree. There is nothing that says that if a Gentile gets cut off that God will put them back in. Nope. That's just for the Jews. However, you are free to continue telling us how the Jews are damned, finding supposed salvation in the flesh (the Law/covenants) and not in God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hence why the Gentiles will judge the Jews for their failure to follow the Law.

Actually, the Jews brought that all upon themselves. You know about the judgments, right? The temple was destroyed already, because Israel rejected the Messiah, and God shut them out. However, the hardness and blinding of ISRAEL is only partial, and will be removed, AFTER THE FULNESS OF THE ETHNIC GENTILES (as in, non-Jewish Gentiles) has come in. (I decided to push for the proper use of ethne).

Where did God promise the Jews salvation? This should be good. I mean, we have the promise God made to Abraham, but even Paul said that that was God showing the gospel to Abraham, which speaks to the salvation of both the Jews and the non-Hebrew Genitles.

That is why Paul said that it was a mystery in the Old Testament that was revealed to him and the other apostles at that present time. You really don't get it do you? That mystery is that God is also saving the Gentiles. Even Paul shows that it is different between the two in Romans 9-11. The Gentiles are grafted into the new covenant, however, it doesn't take much for them to get themselves cut out, for they are there only by the kindness of God. The Jews were cut out because of God's severity. They rejected Him, and He is punishing them. However, Paul says that if/when the Jew changes from unbelief to belief, God will reattach them to the tree. There is nothing that says that if a Gentile gets cut off that God will put them back in. Nope. That's just for the Jews. However, you are free to continue telling us how the Jews are damned, finding supposed salvation in the flesh (the Law/covenants) and not in God.

Through the sacrifice of their Messiah the Jews were forgiven.

For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:34.

Jesus paid the penalty for their sin. Israel was forgiven and it was not judgment for sin by which Israel was destroyed. It was to judge the Romans for their sin. Unless you want to say that forgiveness for sin by God is a lie.
Is that what you're saying?
Chance to recant. Take advantage of it.

 

[brightfame52]

Unless you know and understand Greek, in which case you know it means assembly and not church. Greek can be such a confusing language. I believe in progressive revelation, you should look into it.

assembly and church are one

 

[Rockerduck]

Luke 2:30-32 -
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
32 A Light of revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel.”

 

[brightfame52]

That the Church is Israel is seen n the redemption promise made to Israel and fulfilled in the Church by Christs death for His church. Ps 130:8

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

Fulfilled Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 10

 

[armylngst]

Through the sacrifice of their Messiah the Jews were forgiven.

For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:34.

Jesus paid the penalty for their sin. Israel was forgiven and it was not judgment for sin by which Israel was destroyed. It was to judge the Romans for their sin. Unless you want to say that forgiveness for sin by God is a lie.
Is that what you're saying?
Chance to recant. Take advantage of it.

Bottom line up front: The forgiveness of sins is by faith and belief. What did Paul tell the jailer? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. He didn't say, pull out your birth certificate, show me you are a Jew, then I will tell you you are saved. Savlation is between one man and his God. The election Paul speaks of with Jacob and Esau is of a person. Do note that God said that the destruction of Edom, and all the judgments on Edom was because they were Esau's descendants. (The descendants of... that man.) The election of Israel was solely as a nation, and originally that they would be a nation of priests who would serve the Gentiles as a nation of priests. We all know how that turned out.

Jeremiah 31:34 speaks to a group, not to the individuals. And I would say the actual group is not the nation of Israel, but the true Israel of God, which are those Jews who believe in God/Christ by faith. Gentiles and the church are NOT the true Israel of God.)

The church of non-Jewish Gentiles and Jews was, as Paul said, a mystery in the Old Testament. It was not present. In Romans 4, Paul takes the time to basically say that Abraham was basically justified as a Gentile, if we define Gentile simply as uncircumcised. Paul specifically asked when was Abraham justified by faith. Was it before he was circumcised or after? Before Paul says. His whole point is that both circumcised and uncircumcised, Jew and non-Jewish Gentile, CAN BE, not will be, but can be, justified by FAITH.

This is the whole reason for presenting those non-Jewish Gentiles who are barbarians, then presenting the non-Jewish Gentiles who are a Law unto themselves, who not knowing the law, still follow the principles of the Law. Paul is not saying they are saved, but he did say that these non-Jewish Gentiles would JUDGE the Jews. I think the better understanding is, they would condemn the Jews. Why? Paul says that the Jews have the Law, know the Law, claim to follow the Law, but they do not. No matter how much they claim it. These non-Jewish Gentiles no only do not have the Law, they don't know the Law, and yet, despite that, they follow the precepts of the Law, being a law unto themselves. These, who don't even know the Law, yet somehow live it, condemn those who have the Law, know the Law, claim to uphold the Law, yet do not. This is not a point to argue, it is simply a point to UNDERSTAND. Paul is talking about hypocrisy.

Jesus died not only for our sins (the sins of the Jews), but was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. There is something you need to understand. Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews. Jesus is the Savior to the Gentiles. The Jews were in the tree because they were the chosen people of God. They were cut out of the tree for unbelief. As Paul says in Romans 11. Non-Jewish Gentiles were grafted into the tree from a wild, uncultivated tree, by the KINDNESS of God. He didn't have to do it. The tree is the new covenant. (It is NOT ISRAEL. The... church... is... not... Israel.) I don't care what anyone says, the church is not Israel. Israel is not the church. There are three groups in this regards. The nation of Israel (secular and damned), there is the true Israel of God (the elect remnant of God, that is believing Jews in the nation of Israel), and there is the church (Jews and non-Jewish Gentiles). Mixed race Jews are considered Jews. Hence Timothy was circumcised because he was a mixed race Jew, and Titus was not, because Titus was a non-Jewish Gentile. I believe that Paul still considered the ABRAHAMIC covenant as valid.)

The covenant (land promise, circumcision, etc.) is for the physical descendants of Abraham, and does not save anyone. The promises given outside of the covenants are also for Gentiles, but solely for salvation. It says that in Christ, all the families/nations of the earth/world (translations differ) will be blessed. For the Jew, they accept and believe in the Messiah, for non-Jewish Gentile, they believe in Christ as Savior, not Messiah. The Jews have history with God, while the non-Jewish Gentiles do not. That history means that God has other business with the Jews that He does not have with the non-Jewish Gentiles.

Do note that while the Jews can be/will be regrafted/reattached to the tree, if a Gentile does not continue in the kindness of God and is removed, they will not be grafted back in. That is solely for the Jews. Why? Gentiles were not cut out of the tree to begin with. They were never part of the tree. (If you look at the tree as the Mosaic covenant.) However, with the new covenant, God grafted in Gentiles who are of faith and belief in Christ and His sacrifice. God's mercy and kindness. The Jews are cut out and damned for unbelief. If they repent of this transgression and turn to belief, God will absolutely graft them back in.

The destruction of Israel in AD 70 was judgment for the sin of Israel. That sin was the rejection of the Messiah, of which they still reject the Messiah to this day. Those who believed in Christ were no where to be found in Israel at AD 70. The punishment/judgment fell solely on the generation of them who rejected the Messiah. Rome was the tool God used to carry out His judgment. The sin in question was the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which was a national level sin commited by the religious leadership/leadership of Israel, and was actually reflected in the people. In the way that Adam's sin damned all of humanity, the religious leaders brought judgment upon all Israel. A point a Jewish author made is how the Jewish culture works. Everyone follows the religious leaders. So, the sin of the religious leaders is reflected upon the people. Note how, as Jesus ministry went on, the people were asking if this was the guy who has a demon? They accepted what the religious leaders said, and it becomes more open as Jesus ministry went on.

 

[armylngst]

assembly and church are one

No. Congress is an assembly, but they are not the church, or even a church. What did Jesus tell Peter. He changed His name to rock, and said that upon this rock I WILL [future tense] build my church. Who is the foundation of the church? Moses? Abraham? or is it Jesus? What did Jesus mean when He said He would build His church on the rock of Peter? Well, that is a misinterpretation. He was speaking of the FAITH (salvation is by faith) that Peter presented when he, without doubt, question or hesitation, said Jesus is the Son of the Living God. The church is built on faith. Well... Israel was built on... covenant. Just read Paul to see what he thinks of the Law, next to faith.

 

[armylngst]

Saul writes to Jews. He also addresses Jewish Christians. The subject of the Law applies to Israel not Gentiles. To the Jews Gentiles are the enemy. Gentiles are occupying their Holy Land given to them by God. Gentiles will soon destroy their Temple and their people.

Paul wrote to the non-Jewish Gentiles and Jews in the churches. The Galatian church was a Gentile church. Peter, James, Jude, and the author of Hebrews wrote to the Jews. The Law does not apply to the Gentiles, and Paul says it no longer applies to the Jews, as it is faith that applies. Paul tells the non-Jewish Gentiles that the Jews are their enemy... for the sake of the gospel. He mentions that because he is being very specific. It is by the rejection of the Messiah by Israel/Jews, that the gospel went to the non-Jewish Gentiles. Salvation by faith in Christ. And, when the fulness of the non-Jewish Gentiles comes in, God will again focus on Israel, and His plan of reconciliation with the WORLD will be completed with Israel's return from the dead. (So to speak.) Paul speaks of Israel's final redemption as life from the dead.

When a Jew is born-again salvation which was promised them by God is finally fulfilled by God. There is justification, sanctification, faith, and imputation. These were all promised to the Jews by God. The Holy Spirit was Promised to Israel through Joel. There is no Scripture that says God promised His Spirit to Gentiles.
Nowhere.

Which is why Paul explains that the mystery of the church (Jews and non-Jewish Gentiles) was not at all mentioned in the Old Testament, but was revealed in the "present time" to Paul and the disciples/apostles. The fact that God would bring in the non-Jewish Gentiles into the church, not into Israel. They would be justified by faith as uncircumcised, just as Abraham was justified by faith when he was uncircumcised. You have to read what Peter had to say with Cornelius. They weren't mixed race Jews. If they were, they would have had no problem baptising them. However, Peter said " 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”"

You have to understand what Peter said:
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who [y]fears Him and [z]does what is right is welcome to Him.

and also

26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27 As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29 That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.”

The word for foreigner in Greek is: From allos and phule; foreign, i.e. (specially) Gentile -- one of another nation. "ἀλλόφυλος, (ἄλλος, and φῦλον race), foreign, (in secular authors from (Aeschylus) Thucydides down); when used in Hellenistic Greek in opposed to a Jew, it signifies a Gentile, (A. V. one of another nation)" Not mixed race Jew, but non-Jewish Gentile.

Of Cornelius it says "Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian [a]cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually."

Cornelius was not a Jew, or a mixed race Jew. He was Italian, not of some Jewish regiment or cohort, but of the Italian cohort. He was a God-fearer, a term used for non-Jewish Gentiles that feared God. He gave alms to the Jewish people, and that is defined because he is not a Jew, but he is very devout in his belief of God. God heard his prayer as a Gentile, and had him call for Peter to speak to him.

 

[brightfame52]

No. Congress is an assembly,

Yes they are one and the same, apples for oranges

 

[jeremiah1five]

Bottom line up front: The forgiveness of sins is by faith and belief. What did Paul tell the jailer? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. He didn't say, pull out your birth certificate, show me you are a Jew, then I will tell you you are saved. Savlation is between one man and his God. The election Paul speaks of with Jacob and Esau is of a person. Do note that God said that the destruction of Edom, and all the judgments on Edom was because they were Esau's descendants. (The descendants of... that man.) The election of Israel was solely as a nation, and originally that they would be a nation of priests who would serve the Gentiles as a nation of priests. We all know how that turned out.

Jeremiah 31:34 speaks to a group, not to the individuals. And I would say the actual group is not the nation of Israel, but the true Israel of God, which are those Jews who believe in God/Christ by faith. Gentiles and the church are NOT the true Israel of God.)

The church of non-Jewish Gentiles and Jews was, as Paul said, a mystery in the Old Testament. It was not present. In Romans 4, Paul takes the time to basically say that Abraham was basically justified as a Gentile, if we define Gentile simply as uncircumcised. Paul specifically asked when was Abraham justified by faith. Was it before he was circumcised or after? Before Paul says. His whole point is that both circumcised and uncircumcised, Jew and non-Jewish Gentile, CAN BE, not will be, but can be, justified by FAITH.

This is the whole reason for presenting those non-Jewish Gentiles who are barbarians, then presenting the non-Jewish Gentiles who are a Law unto themselves, who not knowing the law, still follow the principles of the Law. Paul is not saying they are saved, but he did say that these non-Jewish Gentiles would JUDGE the Jews. I think the better understanding is, they would condemn the Jews. Why? Paul says that the Jews have the Law, know the Law, claim to follow the Law, but they do not. No matter how much they claim it. These non-Jewish Gentiles no only do not have the Law, they don't know the Law, and yet, despite that, they follow the precepts of the Law, being a law unto themselves. These, who don't even know the Law, yet somehow live it, condemn those who have the Law, know the Law, claim to uphold the Law, yet do not. This is not a point to argue, it is simply a point to UNDERSTAND. Paul is talking about hypocrisy.

Jesus died not only for our sins (the sins of the Jews), but was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. There is something you need to understand. Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews. Jesus is the Savior to the Gentiles. The Jews were in the tree because they were the chosen people of God. They were cut out of the tree for unbelief. As Paul says in Romans 11. Non-Jewish Gentiles were grafted into the tree from a wild, uncultivated tree, by the KINDNESS of God. He didn't have to do it. The tree is the new covenant. (It is NOT ISRAEL. The... church... is... not... Israel.) I don't care what anyone says, the church is not Israel. Israel is not the church. There are three groups in this regards. The nation of Israel (secular and damned), there is the true Israel of God (the elect remnant of God, that is believing Jews in the nation of Israel), and there is the church (Jews and non-Jewish Gentiles). Mixed race Jews are considered Jews. Hence Timothy was circumcised because he was a mixed race Jew, and Titus was not, because Titus was a non-Jewish Gentile. I believe that Paul still considered the ABRAHAMIC covenant as valid.)

The covenant (land promise, circumcision, etc.) is for the physical descendants of Abraham, and does not save anyone. The promises given outside of the covenants are also for Gentiles, but solely for salvation. It says that in Christ, all the families/nations of the earth/world (translations differ) will be blessed. For the Jew, they accept and believe in the Messiah, for non-Jewish Gentile, they believe in Christ as Savior, not Messiah. The Jews have history with God, while the non-Jewish Gentiles do not. That history means that God has other business with the Jews that He does not have with the non-Jewish Gentiles.

Do note that while the Jews can be/will be regrafted/reattached to the tree, if a Gentile does not continue in the kindness of God and is removed, they will not be grafted back in. That is solely for the Jews. Why? Gentiles were not cut out of the tree to begin with. They were never part of the tree. (If you look at the tree as the Mosaic covenant.) However, with the new covenant, God grafted in Gentiles who are of faith and belief in Christ and His sacrifice. God's mercy and kindness. The Jews are cut out and damned for unbelief. If they repent of this transgression and turn to belief, God will absolutely graft them back in.

The destruction of Israel in AD 70 was judgment for the sin of Israel. That sin was the rejection of the Messiah, of which they still reject the Messiah to this day. Those who believed in Christ were no where to be found in Israel at AD 70. The punishment/judgment fell solely on the generation of them who rejected the Messiah. Rome was the tool God used to carry out His judgment. The sin in question was the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which was a national level sin commited by the religious leadership/leadership of Israel, and was actually reflected in the people. In the way that Adam's sin damned all of humanity, the religious leaders brought judgment upon all Israel. A point a Jewish author made is how the Jewish culture works. Everyone follows the religious leaders. So, the sin of the religious leaders is reflected upon the people. Note how, as Jesus ministry went on, the people were asking if this was the guy who has a demon? They accepted what the religious leaders said, and it becomes more open as Jesus ministry went on.

Under the New Covenant forgiveness is given to Israel without faith and belief.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:33–34.

Above in the New Covenant prophecy in total. It shows us what God is going to do with His people Israel. Notice there is no "faith" and "belief" as part of this covenant. Israel does nothing towards their redemption and salvation and forgiveness. God is the engine of all that is salvation. Men are passive. They play no part at all.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Ephesians 1:4–7.

Salvation is of the LORD.
Wholly.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Paul wrote to the non-Jewish Gentiles and Jews in the churches. The Galatian church was a Gentile church. Peter, James, Jude, and the author of Hebrews wrote to the Jews. The Law does not apply to the Gentiles, and Paul says it no longer applies to the Jews, as it is faith that applies. Paul tells the non-Jewish Gentiles that the Jews are their enemy... for the sake of the gospel. He mentions that because he is being very specific. It is by the rejection of the Messiah by Israel/Jews, that the gospel went to the non-Jewish Gentiles. Salvation by faith in Christ. And, when the fulness of the non-Jewish Gentiles comes in, God will again focus on Israel, and His plan of reconciliation with the WORLD will be completed with Israel's return from the dead. (So to speak.) Paul speaks of Israel's final redemption as life from the dead.

Which is why Paul explains that the mystery of the church (Jews and non-Jewish Gentiles) was not at all mentioned in the Old Testament, but was revealed in the "present time" to Paul and the disciples/apostles. The fact that God would bring in the non-Jewish Gentiles into the church, not into Israel. They would be justified by faith as uncircumcised, just as Abraham was justified by faith when he was uncircumcised. You have to read what Peter had to say with Cornelius. They weren't mixed race Jews. If they were, they would have had no problem baptising them. However, Peter said " 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”"

You have to understand what Peter said:
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who [y]fears Him and [z]does what is right is welcome to Him.

and also

26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27 As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29 That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.”

The word for foreigner in Greek is: From allos and phule; foreign, i.e. (specially) Gentile -- one of another nation. "ἀλλόφυλος, (ἄλλος, and φῦλον race), foreign, (in secular authors from (Aeschylus) Thucydides down); when used in Hellenistic Greek in opposed to a Jew, it signifies a Gentile, (A. V. one of another nation)" Not mixed race Jew, but non-Jewish Gentile.

Of Cornelius it says "Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian [a]cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually."

Cornelius was not a Jew, or a mixed race Jew. He was Italian, not of some Jewish regiment or cohort, but of the Italian cohort. He was a God-fearer, a term used for non-Jewish Gentiles that feared God. He gave alms to the Jewish people, and that is defined because he is not a Jew, but he is very devout in his belief of God. God heard his prayer as a Gentile, and had him call for Peter to speak to him.

Jesus Christ is the lamb of God. He was sent as substitute for the animal that is usually sacrificed to atone the sins of the children of Israel. In fulfilling the Law of Moses Jesus was sacrificed - like the animal was - for the sins of the children of Israel under the Law.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.

It would appear you reject what Saul is saying above as rabbi and Pharisee. You want to instead add Gentiles under the Law with Israel in order to add that Gentiles are also saved along with the children of Israel.

You are in grave error.

 

[armylngst]

Yes they are one and the same, apples for oranges

In Hebrew, the word used was for assembly and not for church. Greek doesn't have different words when they did the Septuagint.

 

[armylngst]

Under the New Covenant forgiveness is given to Israel without faith and belief.

That is incorrect. You are misunderstanding what Paul wrote, and misunderstanding eschatology. What is seen below is what will happen when Jesus comes and saves Israel personally, right before the Messianic Kingdom starts.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:33–34.

Danile 9 talks about what will happen right before the millennial kingdom. The whole reason Daniel received the prophecy is because he knew the 70 year exile was coming to an end, but he believed the end of the exile marked the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom, where all Israel turns and calls out to God. Hence his prayer is him praying for the forgiveness of all Israel. He wasn't praying for himself, but for his people and for Jerusalem. Hence the prophecy given is about Daniel's people, and their holy city. God would bring an end to the transgression, an end to sins, etc.

Above in the New Covenant prophecy in total. It shows us what God is going to do with His people Israel. Notice there is no "faith" and "belief" as part of this covenant. Israel does nothing towards their redemption and salvation and forgiveness. God is the engine of all that is salvation. Men are passive. They play no part at all.

Paul is the one who speaks the most of the new covenant, and he is clear that it is circumcision of the heart, which is by the Holy Spirit, which comes by faith and belief in Christ, which is how one enters the new covenant. Those who are of the flesh, of the Law/covenant, they are damned. Only those who are spiritual descendants (here I speak of the Jews) are the ones who will partake in the new covenant. The Gentiles, but the kindness of God, also partake, but, as I am sure would be clear by now, there is still that distinction between the Jews and non-Jewish Gentiles. The Jews who are out of the new covenant, can, by repenting and turning to belief, be grafted back in. A Gentile, who is grafted in AS A FOREIGN BRANCH, by the kindness of God, if removed, GOD WILL NOT REATTACH. Gentiles are included by the kindness of God. They are foreign, as scripture says in other places where it talks of those who are far away (which they say means pagans, a word only used for non-Jewish Gentiles), who were strangers to the covenants of God, that is, completely outside. They were not a part. Anyone who is any part Jew comes from someone who was a part of the covenants, thus they are part of the covenants. Such as the Abrahami covenant. They, unlike the non-Jewish gentiles have to bear the same burden/yolk as all the other Jews. The Gentiles, by special exemption that God had expressed and sent out in a letter by the Jewish church, do not. Why? They aren't Jews. It isn't for them.

The Gentiles are saved by the grace of God through Christ by God's kindness. They are the other flock that are not His (Jews are His as the elect nation of Israel) that He will also gather. The Jews come to Jesus as Messiah, the Gentiles come to Jesus as Savior. God has a history with the Jews that He does not have with the Gentiles. As such, when dealing with the whole context of scripture and history, the part to eternity differs between the Jews and the non-Jewish Gentile believers. And that is due to the history that the Jews have with God that the Gentiles do not. The Jews have the Abrahamic covenant, while the Gentiles do not. The Jews have the Davidic covenant, while the Jews do not. As presented elsewhere, that does not mean the Gentiles are unaffected by the Davidic covenant, in that part of God's blessings to David with that covenant is that the Gentiiles will come to worship. David's heir will reign over the Gentiles, while that Kingdom is in Israel where Jesus will sit on David's throne. This is really deep, apparently deeper then you have gone.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Ephesians 1:4–7.

This is speaking of all the elect, Jew and non-Jewish Gentiles. You will notice that the covenants are not present here. The inheritance here is that which is obtained through Christ. It does not speak to what the Jews have through the covenants. That is separate. The Jews will see the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic covenant, and the covenant God has with the Levites fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. They will see Abraham, and they will see David. (Not to mention the rest of the Old Testament Saints.) Those Gentiles who go to the feasts to avoid God's punishment to their countries/nations may/will see them as well. There is a reason why non-Jewish Gentiles are always shown below the Jews in the millennial kingdom prophecies of the Old Testament.

Salvation is of the LORD.
Wholly.

Yes it is. Penal substitutionary atonement. Jesus took the penalty that we face upon Himself, and His righteousness is imputed to all who believe in Him by faith. (True faith, not the human base faith such as, this chair won't collapse on me because it never has before...) Salvation is to any who would believe in Christ by faith, to the Jew first (priority) then to those dogs (non-Jewish Gentiles) who eat of the crumbs that fall from the table. You seem to miss the fact that there is an established order. So much is promised to the Jews, because God chose them in the beginning. The Gentiles have salvation at all by the kindness and mercy of God. The gospel went to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected. Due to the acceptance of the Gentiles, the Jews will, at the appointed time, repent, believe and be saved. They will be reattached to the tree, and God does it gladly. Redemption has always been a universal plan. God set up an order to it. Right now, Israel is under the partial blindness and hardening of God. When God is done dealing with His elect from the Gentiles (not the nations, we are speaking of individuals here), then God will remove the partial blindness/hardening of Israel, and His elect people (individual) of the nation of Israel will be saved. (The true Israel of God, the 1/3rd of Israel of the book of Zechariah.) The day of redemption for the true Israel of God will be, for lack of better words, glorious. Even Paul stated as much.

 

[armylngst]

Jesus Christ is the lamb of God. He was sent as substitute for the animal that is usually sacrificed to atone the sins of the children of Israel. In fulfilling the Law of Moses Jesus was sacrificed - like the animal was - for the sins of the children of Israel under the Law.

Yes. However, the author states that Jesus died for "us" (Jews/mixed race JEWS), He is also the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. It is a new covenant. It includes the Gentiles for salvation. The tree Paul writes about is not Israel. It is not the church. It is the new covenant. God took non-Jewish Gentiles from an uncultivated, wild tree, and grafted them in by His kindness. He cut the Jews out for unbelief in His severity. He, who has dealt with the Jews for so long, and even made a covenant with them, had them reject the covenant, so God is severe. However, while He would quickly cut out any Gentile who does not continue in His kindness, never to reattach, God will quickly reattach any Jew that repents and believes. The Gentiles do not have any other opportunity. Again, the distinction that exists between the chosen people of God of Israel, and those God chose of the non-Jewish Gentiles to whom He shows kindness. This is something you need to understand.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.

Yes. However, Jesus also saves Gentililes. Those who have no law at all, and those who are a law unto themselves. However, this is ONLY by faith. It isn't just, you are saved. It is the same for Jews. For Jews, they are both physical descendants of Abraham, who are destined to die and be damned, but for some, they are also spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith. This is why Jesus more than once ridicules those who say that they are something because they are descendants of Abraham. (Physical.) What did Jesus tell Nicodemus about those who were solely of the flesh? They will not see the kingdom of God. Only those born again of the spirit.

It would appear you reject what Saul is saying above as rabbi and Pharisee. You want to instead add Gentiles under the Law with Israel in order to add that Gentiles are also saved along with the children of Israel.

Paul was no longer a pharisee. He was dead set against the Judaizers. Paul tells us that the Old Testament is silent on Gentiles entering the church, but that this mystery had been revealed to him and the disciples at that time. Paul understands that. He has Timothy circumcised because he is part Jewish on his mother's side (while his father is a greek). Jewish ethnicity is recognized from the mother's side, not father's side. He did not have TItus get circumcised because Titus was a non-Jewish Gentile. There is a lot to this, so it isn't that simple, because it is also because if Timothy didn't get circumcised, it would have caused issues for Paul's ministry, just as it would have if Titus had gotten circumcised.

You are in grave error.

You are in error. By saying that salvation for the Jews is not by faith, you make yourself a heretic. Why? That is not the gospel. Paul said that anyone who did not teach/preach the gospel he had is accursed of God. Get yourself right on the gospel. Paul said the gospel is Christ and Christ crucified. Savlation by fatih in Christ. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Get the gospel right. Then understand that the gospel is to all people. That doesn't change the existence of the Jews and the Gentililes. Their place is still present in the Bible. God is fulfilling the promise that He made with the serpent through Eve. Her seed. Not Adam's seed. (Perhaps He already spoke of a virgin birth even then?)

Savlation is for any who will believe in Jesus by faith. If they will not believe in Jesus by faith, they will not be saved. Neither Jew, nor non-Jewish Gentile. Read about what God has to say about the 1/3rd of Israel and the 2/3rds. He makes it VERY clear that the 2/3rds are damned.

 

[brightfame52]

In Hebrew, the word used was for assembly and not for church. Greek doesn't have different words when they did the Septuagint.

You struggling hard, but theyre the same

 

[jeremiah1five]

That is incorrect. You are misunderstanding what Paul wrote, and misunderstanding eschatology. What is seen below is what will happen when Jesus comes and saves Israel personally, right before the Messianic Kingdom starts.

Danile 9 talks about what will happen right before the millennial kingdom. The whole reason Daniel received the prophecy is because he knew the 70 year exile was coming to an end, but he believed the end of the exile marked the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom, where all Israel turns and calls out to God. Hence his prayer is him praying for the forgiveness of all Israel. He wasn't praying for himself, but for his people and for Jerusalem. Hence the prophecy given is about Daniel's people, and their holy city. God would bring an end to the transgression, an end to sins, etc.

Paul is the one who speaks the most of the new covenant, and he is clear that it is circumcision of the heart, which is by the Holy Spirit, which comes by faith and belief in Christ, which is how one enters the new covenant. Those who are of the flesh, of the Law/covenant, they are damned. Only those who are spiritual descendants (here I speak of the Jews) are the ones who will partake in the new covenant. The Gentiles, but the kindness of God, also partake, but, as I am sure would be clear by now, there is still that distinction between the Jews and non-Jewish Gentiles. The Jews who are out of the new covenant, can, by repenting and turning to belief, be grafted back in. A Gentile, who is grafted in AS A FOREIGN BRANCH, by the kindness of God, if removed, GOD WILL NOT REATTACH. Gentiles are included by the kindness of God. They are foreign, as scripture says in other places where it talks of those who are far away (which they say means pagans, a word only used for non-Jewish Gentiles), who were strangers to the covenants of God, that is, completely outside. They were not a part. Anyone who is any part Jew comes from someone who was a part of the covenants, thus they are part of the covenants. Such as the Abrahami covenant. They, unlike the non-Jewish gentiles have to bear the same burden/yolk as all the other Jews. The Gentiles, by special exemption that God had expressed and sent out in a letter by the Jewish church, do not. Why? They aren't Jews. It isn't for them.

The Gentiles are saved by the grace of God through Christ by God's kindness. They are the other flock that are not His (Jews are His as the elect nation of Israel) that He will also gather. The Jews come to Jesus as Messiah, the Gentiles come to Jesus as Savior. God has a history with the Jews that He does not have with the Gentiles. As such, when dealing with the whole context of scripture and history, the part to eternity differs between the Jews and the non-Jewish Gentile believers. And that is due to the history that the Jews have with God that the Gentiles do not. The Jews have the Abrahamic covenant, while the Gentiles do not. The Jews have the Davidic covenant, while the Jews do not. As presented elsewhere, that does not mean the Gentiles are unaffected by the Davidic covenant, in that part of God's blessings to David with that covenant is that the Gentiiles will come to worship. David's heir will reign over the Gentiles, while that Kingdom is in Israel where Jesus will sit on David's throne. This is really deep, apparently deeper then you have gone.

This is speaking of all the elect, Jew and non-Jewish Gentiles. You will notice that the covenants are not present here. The inheritance here is that which is obtained through Christ. It does not speak to what the Jews have through the covenants. That is separate. The Jews will see the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic covenant, and the covenant God has with the Levites fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. They will see Abraham, and they will see David. (Not to mention the rest of the Old Testament Saints.) Those Gentiles who go to the feasts to avoid God's punishment to their countries/nations may/will see them as well. There is a reason why non-Jewish Gentiles are always shown below the Jews in the millennial kingdom prophecies of the Old Testament.

Yes it is. Penal substitutionary atonement. Jesus took the penalty that we face upon Himself, and His righteousness is imputed to all who believe in Him by faith. (True faith, not the human base faith such as, this chair won't collapse on me because it never has before...) Salvation is to any who would believe in Christ by faith, to the Jew first (priority) then to those dogs (non-Jewish Gentiles) who eat of the crumbs that fall from the table. You seem to miss the fact that there is an established order. So much is promised to the Jews, because God chose them in the beginning. The Gentiles have salvation at all by the kindness and mercy of God. The gospel went to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected. Due to the acceptance of the Gentiles, the Jews will, at the appointed time, repent, believe and be saved. They will be reattached to the tree, and God does it gladly. Redemption has always been a universal plan. God set up an order to it. Right now, Israel is under the partial blindness and hardening of God. When God is done dealing with His elect from the Gentiles (not the nations, we are speaking of individuals here), then God will remove the partial blindness/hardening of Israel, and His elect people (individual) of the nation of Israel will be saved. (The true Israel of God, the 1/3rd of Israel of the book of Zechariah.) The day of redemption for the true Israel of God will be, for lack of better words, glorious. Even Paul stated as much.

You add to the Bible.

There are NO GENTILES that are under the Law and whose sins are atoned along with Israel's sins by the paschal lamb. And if non-Hebrew Gentiles are not included under the Law and atoned by the animal sacrifice then Gentiles are outside the grace of God.

But to add Gentiles along with Israel as being under the Law then please post the Scripture from the Law that God says this.