An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

Are you not forgetting that it is his Father who has the last say in the matter of leaving his Son for dead or not. Jesus was mortal and was very dead like you or I in the future. He had no power to become alive again as we are also powerless.

And hello dizerner...

Hey!

Apparently Jesus himself strongly disagrees with you here, though:

18 "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (Jn. 10:18 NKJ)

Jesus also says in John 2:19: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, (2 Tim. 1:10 NKJ)


If Jesus were nothing more than helpless participant, all these verses would be written differently:

"The Father has power (authority) to take it again."

"And the Father will raise it up."

"the Father has abolished death and bring immortality to light."


It is a beautiful testament that we see all Three of the Truine God participate in his own resurrection.
 
Apparently Jesus himself strongly disagrees with you here, though:
Not quite. Jesus is talking about POTENTIAL, not ACTUAL.

It is one thing to say I can get my wife a cup of coffee. It is another thing to deny another person other than me actually got my wife a cup of coffee. See the difference?
 
Hey!

Apparently Jesus himself strongly disagrees with you here, though:

18 "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (Jn. 10:18 NKJ)

Jesus also says in John 2:19: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, (2 Tim. 1:10 NKJ)


If Jesus were nothing more than helpless participant, all these verses would be written differently:

"The Father has power (authority) to take it again."

"And the Father will raise it up."

"the Father has abolished death and bring immortality to light."


It is a beautiful testament that we see all Three of the Truine God participate in his own resurrection.
Hey there, another smorgasbord consumer of scripture. Catch the sound-bite and run with it and call it all good. I bet in class you got at least a letter D grade or a lower letter for not reading what a test question really said. I suggest you slow down on this subject and maybe listen to my post.

If there were two scriptures that required you to slow down and read the actual wider context, they are these two.

Sorry to bore you with the details although you are not the first to fall into this trap of false security and misplaced smiles.

Once upon a time the Son of God began his mission or ministry and ensured he would following his Father's words to a Tee. One of his first things he did and said was to smash things, and overturn tables in the Temple court. Jesus was beginning to exercise his spiritual muscles if you will, as he obeyed his Father in his new role of life for us and himself.

Jesus not only was fulfilling scripture, he was careful in his owns words and actions that were in full compliance with his Father's will. And in so doing he spoke to the Pharisees in this Temple court in a deliberate veiled fashion at first, to an unbelieving audience. Later his words were more clearer as his audience were getting more used to him, and Jesus himself became more bolder and confident as he was completing his mission to the Cross.

So this is a general backdrop for his words in John 2:19 and even in John 10: 17-18.

(Joh 10:17) Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
(Joh 10:18) No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. (RV)

In verses John 10:17 and 18 Jesus' own will laid down his life. I believe you do understand this part quite well. His Father is not going to force him to the Cross and die for him or anyone else.

It is the second part you have taken for granted and gotten lost.

When in verse 17b Jesus says that, I may take it up again, and in verse 18 where he also says, I have the power to take it up again, he is not saying he had independent power to raise himself to life to immortality separate from his Father. I noticed you never addressed why he received this command from his Father. And why should you if you thought there was a quick ready made answer you saw in this scripture. It makes all the difference though.

As I said in the broader context, Jesus KNEW that if he always obeyed his Father, his will, and remained sinless to his death on the Cross he would fulfill the legal obligations of his Father to raise him from the dead, in three days. And thus in this way Jesus 'had the power' it was in his hands to become resurrected or remain dead if he failed in his mission. And Jesus made it very clear to his unbelieving audience that he had this power or will to succeed or fail as the Father commanded him previously. Of course his audience never knew what he was really saying. They thought he was mad or possessed. And you do not understand it either because of your blind allegiance to a man-made religion.

Jesus knew the stakes were that high and he passed the bar with ease. So his Father after knowing his Son succeeded in his mission, and met his obligations, caused him to regain life to immortality. The Father's power resurrected his Son whilst Jesus' own power to stay the course cause this to happen to him. Jesus thus had the power to raise himself, based on his perfect mission performance and the promise made by his Father to execute it, himself.

And the same context applies to John 2:19. with the same view. Jesus was raised, his own body-temple in three days because he had the power to pass the test and did, that would cause his Father to resurrect him'

(Joh 2:19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (RV)


I hope you see your grave err in your judgment, in rushing to a conclusion that is only congruent with your triad model of belief....not scripture.

As Paul said:

1Co 6:14 and God both raised the Lord, and will raise up us through his power. (RV)

Paul would readily understand my post, do you, is the real question?!
 
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As Paul said:

1Co 6:14 and God both raised the Lord, and will raise up us through his power. (RV)

Paul would readily understand my post
Outstanding! I eagerly await our trinitarian friends thoughtful response. No doubt it will be an appeal to mysticsim.
 
You cannot agree with what was not stated. What verse makes this claim?

Who was it that Spiritually fed and watered Israel? Paul said it was the Rock of Israel, the Christ "of the Bible". Is HE not the Redeemer, the King of Israel, the Rock of his salvation that they didn't esteem?

Is. 43: 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. 13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? 14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. 15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Was this not the Word, the Rock of Israel, their King? Or do you promote another?

Duet 32: 3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

But Israel rebelled, Yes?

17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Is this not the same folks spoken of in Hebrews 4? "2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

If the Lord's Christ who became flesh and dwelled among men, is Not the Rock of Israel, their Redeemer, then who was the Jesus "of the Bible" "where HE was before"? Who did Abraham serve? Who was the Rock?

John 6: 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

John 8: 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

IS. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

If this "Rock", the Holy One of Israel, isn't the Word of God which became Flesh, then who are you promoting?
 
Huh?

2 Cor 1:13 (VOICE) We are not writing to you in anything resembling codes or riddles

We do not speak of these gifts of God in words shaped by human wisdom; we speak in words crafted by the Spirit because our collective judgment on spiritual matters is accessible to those who have the Spirit. 14 But a person who denies spiritual realities will not accept the things that come through the Spirit of God; they all sound like foolishness to him. He is incapable of grasping them because they are disseminated, discerned, and valued by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 2:13-14, VOICE

Translation could use some brushing up but good enough.
 
Outstanding! I eagerly await our trinitarian friends thoughtful response. No doubt it will be an appeal to mysticsim.
Thank you for your positive comment. It's truly not me though, it suddenly came to me along with other writings from reliable sources I've used in the past as I was muddling over it all as always....I will add it in to my ongoing list of Biblical commentaries.
 
Hey there, another smorgasbord consumer of scripture. Catch the sound-bite and run with it and call it all good. I bet in class you got at least a letter D grade or a lower letter for not reading what a test question really said. I suggest you slow down on this subject and maybe listen to my post.

This is ridiculous.

Quoted three verses that are so clearly worded you just throw up a bunch of ad hominem and poisoning the well.

That's pathetic and I'm labeling you as a dishonest interlocutor.

Or, in your words, "I'm running away because I just can't handle the power of your logic."

Lol.
 
Hey there, another smorgasbord consumer of scripture. Catch the sound-bite and run with it and call it all good. I bet in class you got at least a letter D grade or a lower letter for not reading what a test question really said. I suggest you slow down on this subject and maybe listen to my post.

If there were two scriptures that required you to slow down and read the actual wider context, they are these two.

Sorry to bore you with the details although you are not the first to fall into this trap of false security and misplaced smiles.

Once upon a time the Son of God began his mission or ministry and ensured he would following his Father's words to a Tee. One of his first things he did and said was to smash things, and overturn tables in the Temple court. Jesus was beginning to exercise his spiritual muscles if you will, as he obeyed his Father in his new role of life for us and himself.

The Son of God, "of the Bible" anyway, according to Scriptures in my view, began His Mission long before HE became a mortal man. He was the "Light" of this world from the very beginning, in my view. HE created all that was created, as directed by His Father. He was sent by His Father to teach men in the way that they should go, including Noah, Abraham and Jacob. He gave His Gospel to Israel long before HE became flesh and dwelled among men.

While I agree that HE despises religious businesses founded on His or His Father's Name, (Who are of One Mind) I don't see His Gospel being any different than the Gospel HE gave Israel. As such, it seems to me that His Ministry began long before He was found in the fashion of a man.

Jesus not only was fulfilling scripture, he was careful in his owns words and actions that were in full compliance with his Father's will. And in so doing he spoke to the Pharisees in this Temple court in a deliberate veiled fashion at first, to an unbelieving audience. Later his words were more clearer as his audience were getting more used to him, and Jesus himself became more bolder and confident as he was completing his mission to the Cross.

It seems prudent to consider that Israel rejected Him long before the Pharisees did, as Jesus points out in His quoting of Isaiah.

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Is. 29: 13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

It seems also prudent to note that Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men all knew who HE was, even before HE was old enough to know Himself. But the Pharisees, who didn't believe Moses, didn't know Him even after the "Works" He did.


So this is a general backdrop for his words in John 2:19 and even in John 10: 17-18.

(Joh 10:17) Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
(Joh 10:18) No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. (RV)

In verses John 10:17 and 18 Jesus' own will laid down his life. I believe you do understand this part quite well. His Father is not going to force him to the Cross and die for him or anyone else.

Yes, I agree. The Rock of Israel risked His Immortality for the Father's Purpose. No one forced him to become a mortal, HE had the power to do so, and chose to become flesh and blood. This, to me, is what makes His Sacrifice so important and special. And is also the reason why HIS father gave him such Glory. I don't believe Jesus overcame "Because HE was God", I believe HE used the same armor and power to "learn obedience" and resist sin that His Father gave to all men.

It is the second part you have taken for granted and gotten lost.

When in verse 17b Jesus says that, I may take it up again, and in verse 18 where he also says, I have the power to take it up again, he is not saying he had independent power to raise himself to life to immortality separate from his Father. I noticed you never addressed why he received this command from his Father. And why should you if you thought there was a quick ready made answer you saw in this scripture. It makes all the difference though.

As I said in the broader context, Jesus KNEW that if he always obeyed his Father, his will, and remained sinless to his death on the Cross he would fulfill the legal obligations of his Father to raise him from the dead, in three days. And thus in this way Jesus 'had the power' it was in his hands to become resurrected or remain dead if he failed in his mission.

This is spot on, in my understanding. In the Scriptures it is written;

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Life or death is choice men are given. And God has given men the capacity to choose one or the other. Jesus knew that if HE lived by "Every Word" that proceeds from the mouth of God, death could not hold Him. He chose Life, and Life was granted.


And Jesus made it very clear to his unbelieving audience that he had this power or will to succeed or fail as the Father commanded him previously. Of course his audience never knew what he was really saying. They thought he was mad or possessed. And you do not understand it either because of your blind allegiance to a man-made religion.

Yes, and it was the same for the audience HE was speaking to, in my understanding. As they also were snared by blind allegiance to the religions of this world they were born into. I think the same could have been said of Abram for much of his 75 years before being called. It seems he too, would have had to make the choice between the religions of his fathers, or the "Way of the Lord". It is written of him, " So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him". It seems Abram chose Life as well.

Jesus knew the stakes were that high and he passed the bar with ease. So his Father after knowing his Son succeeded in his mission, and met his obligations, caused him to regain life to immortality. The Father's power resurrected his Son whilst Jesus' own power to stay the course cause this to happen to him. Jesus thus had the power to raise himself, based on his perfect mission performance and the promise made by his Father to execute it, himself.

AKA "Faith".

Great topic and discussion.
 
The Son of God, "of the Bible" anyway, according to Scriptures in my view, began His Mission long before HE became a mortal man. He was the "Light" of this world from the very beginning, in my view. HE created all that was created, as directed by His Father. He was sent by His Father to teach men in the way that they should go, including Noah, Abraham and Jacob. He gave His Gospel to Israel long before HE became flesh and dwelled among men.

While I agree that HE despises religious businesses founded on His or His Father's Name, (Who are of One Mind) I don't see His Gospel being any different than the Gospel HE gave Israel. As such, it seems to me that His Ministry began long before He was found in the fashion of a man.



It seems prudent to consider that Israel rejected Him long before the Pharisees did, as Jesus points out in His quoting of Isaiah.

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Is. 29: 13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

It seems also prudent to note that Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men all knew who HE was, even before HE was old enough to know Himself. But the Pharisees, who didn't believe Moses, didn't know Him even after the "Works" He did.




Yes, I agree. The Rock of Israel risked His Immortality for the Father's Purpose. No one forced him to become a mortal, HE had the power to do so, and chose to become flesh and blood. This, to me, is what makes His Sacrifice so important and special. And is also the reason why HIS father gave him such Glory. I don't believe Jesus overcame "Because HE was God", I believe HE used the same armor and power to "learn obedience" and resist sin that His Father gave to all men.



This is spot on, in my understanding. In the Scriptures it is written;

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Life or death is choice men are given. And God has given men the capacity to choose one or the other. Jesus knew that if HE lived by "Every Word" that proceeds from the mouth of God, death could not hold Him. He chose Life, and Life was granted.




Yes, and it was the same for the audience HE was speaking to, in my understanding. As they also were snared by blind allegiance to the religions of this world they were born into. I think the same could have been said of Abram for much of his 75 years before being called. It seems he too, would have had to make the choice between the religions of his fathers, or the "Way of the Lord". It is written of him, " So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him". It seems Abram chose Life as well.



AKA "Faith".

Great topic and discussion.
I do agree on some of your points although not on the Trinitary version of things, like Jesus' mission began before he became a mortal man and was born, and that Israel also rejected HIM before he was born etc. These are ALL true only for the Father God in the OT however, as Jesus was still waiting in the mental wings of his Father, waiting for his que to create a miracle, the Son of God, in the future..

And one key point you make that I do agree without any doubts. These unbelievers in Jesus's audience were blinded by their own religious beliefs and convictions and therefore unable to hear his words with meaning let alone accept his as the Son of God. The same with the Father God in the OT and believing in his as the Father of all. These two personalities do form a sequence of logical and scriptural events culminating in the Cross of salvation.

Thanks for the comments, they are much appreciated
 
Can you define what this passage means in light of your above claims of " changing " ?

Hebrews 13:8- Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

@sethproton

He will never lie.
He will always be righteous in all he does.
He will always be the Son of God....

But, he has changed modus operandi towards believers.

Under the Law as God he treated believers one way.
Under the Church age he is treating believers no longer according to the Law.

When He ascended and was glorified he became the fullness of Deity in bodily form.
If He had been that way prior to the Cross? He could never have been crucified.

He came to earth in an unglorified state.
For the Bible says so in John 7:38-39.

Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.


Unchanging means pertaining to His character of righteousness and justice. That He never changes. In that He will always remain the same.
 
When He ascended and was glorified he became the fullness of Deity in bodily form.
If He had been that way prior to the Cross? He could never have been crucified.
Wong once again I see.

All the Fulness of Deity dwells in Him (permanently) as per Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9. This is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT " from Colossians 1:19;2:9 concerning Christ being fully God lacking nothing in His Divinity while on this earth and His Ascension and also His humanity which remains permanent. The Incarnation was not temporal but Christ remains forever God in the flesh. All the fulness of Deity remains bodily.

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus. In Colossians 1:19 it is describing His earthly ministry and Colossians 2:9 it is describing His Post Resurrection/Ascension Glory as God Incarnate.

Colossians 1:19-20
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven

Colossians 2:9-10- For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 3:1- Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Paul is talking in Colossians chapters 2-3 about the glorified resurrected Christ now seated at the right hand of God not the earthly Christ pre resurrection. This is a slam dunk that He is in a human glorified resurrection body and that He continues to have all the fullness of Deity dwelling bodily in the present.

Now read the Greek below on the present ongoing meaning of DWELLS . The bodily dwelling of Deity is permanent not temporary. The Incarnation was PERMANENT.

κατοικεῖ (katoikei)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2730: To dwell in, settle in, be established in (permanently), inhabit. From kata and oikeo; to house permanently, i.e. Reside.
8.2 σωματικός, ή, όν; σωματικῶςa: (derivatives of σῶμαa ‘body,’ 8.1) pertaining to a physical body—‘bodily, physical, bodily form.’[1] Louw Nida


Expositor's Greek Testament
Colossians 2:9. in Him and in Him alone.—κατοικεῖ: “permanently dwells”. The reference is to the Exalted State, not only on account of the present, but of the context and Paul’s Christology generally.—πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος: “all the fulness of the Godhead”. πᾶν is emphatic, the whole fulness dwells in Christ.

“Dwelleth” is katoikei (κατοικει). Oikeō (Ὀικεω) means “to be at home.” Kata (Κατα), prefixed, means “down,” thus showing permanence. The compound verb was used of the permanent residents of a town as compared with the transient community. The verb is in the present tense, showing durative action. The translation reads: “Because in Him there is continuously and permanently at home all the fulness of the Godhead in bodily fashion.”

hope this helps !!!
 
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