An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

[Wrangler]

Do you still keep the Sabbath day?

Absolutely.

Having said that, this appeal to Ad Homenim does not change the fact that YHWH set the standard for direct communication, literally setting it in stone in no uncertain circumstances.

Frankly, it is the same with the NT, once you jettison the manmade doctrine of a 3-in-1 God, looking for what is not there. Mark 1:1, Jesus is the Son of God. As clear as could be in the opening sentence of the 1st, oldest Gospel. All the Gospels testify to this and only this regarding his Anointed nature (anointed by God).

123’s (NT)

• All the Gospels proclaim Jesus is God’s Anointed. None claim Jesus is YHWH incarnate.
  • Matthew 1:1 (VOICE) This is the family history, the genealogy, of Jesus the Anointed, the coming King.
  • Mark 1:1 (VOICE). This is the beginning of the good news of Jesus, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, the Son of God.
  • Luke 1:4 I want you to know that you can fully rely on the things you have been taught about Jesus, God’s Anointed One.
  • John 20:31 (VOICE). These accounts are recorded so that you, too, might believe that Jesus is the Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of God, because believing grants you the life He came to share.

It only takes a rudimentary understand of logic to realize this cannot be a way of saying he is God incarnate.

 

[Wrangler]

"Cursed is the man who trusts in man." Can't really disprove this from a man's dictionary.

Appeal to Ignorance. The foundation of trinitarianism.

I subscribe to the famous quote by Galileo. I don't believe in a God who would endow us with a reasoning mind, only to have us forego it's use.

Trust is not in our fellow man but in the almighty, more than capable of communicating with his Creation in no uncertain terms. Like a loving parent, he may keep some things a mystery to us. However, that does not = trinitarian support. He has revealed his plan to us through his son.


No one has ever seen God. God’s only Son, the one who is closest to the Father’s heart, has made him known.
John 1:18 (GW)

 

[civic]

Thank you for the topic, and the invite to share what the Scriptures have shown me. And to see that there are others who have a similar belief and Awe about what the Christ really sacrificed for me. If you don't mind, I would like to say almost the same thing, but perhaps in another light.

It is written in Hebrews 2: 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And Hebrews 4: 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

And again;

Phil. 2: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

So the Christ, the Rock of Israel, was once "In the form of God". Isn't this when HE was up "where HE was before". When Abraham saw His Day and was Glad. Isn't this the Rock of Salvation that Israel lightly esteemed in Duet. 32, "Being in the Form of God?

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man,

When would this Christ understand who HE was? Wouldn't this be after a certain age? I mean, surely HE didn't know who HE was at 2 years old but at some point as "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.", He found that HE was the Prophesied Christ in the fashion of a man, and at 12 years old, He understood more than HE did at 5. "How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?" After all, the Angel told Mary who HE was, she should have known. So what would this human boy do when HE found out who HE was?

"he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "He learned obedience from the things HE suffered".

And How did His Father reward Him?

9 Wherefore (Because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: as prophesied.

Ps. 45: 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Here is the major problem I have with the popular doctrine that Jesus was really God and not human like you and I. That HE was God in the flesh, with access to Godly Powers that no other human in history possessed. And when the going got tough, as it does for all humans, HE just kicked in some God Power no other human ever had, and by this HE Overcame temptation. So then, in this popular doctrine, Jesus wasn't really a man in all ways as His Brethren. He cheated. He basically looked like a man, but really wasn't. And God was in on it as well. Because it is written in both the Law and Prophets, and the New Testament, that God rewarded Jesus "Because" He humbled Himself to God and became obedient unto death. But really, HE was God and couldn't Sin, Couldn't Die, couldn't be tempted, and all these things written about Him becoming a man were untrue. The devil tempting Him was a show, His death, also nothing but show because Jesus had no real danger, His life was never in real peril, HE was never in danger of sinning. He really didn't risk anything, because He was God.

It's like God was the Coach refusing performance enhancing drugs to everyone on the team except his son. And then when his son outperforms everyone else, he rewards his son with a reward greater than all other players.

Jesus said HE had the power to lay down His Life. I don't believe HE lied. I believe HE Offered Himself to His Father for me from the foundation of the world. That HE risked His Immortality and became a human to be the perfect High Priest advocating between me and His Father. He Risked HIS Life for me.

For me, it demeans His Life, and His Sacrifice to imply that HE was God that looked like a man but had powers no other human has ever had. And it's demeaning to God, to imply that God gave Him such a great reward and Glory and Power, for risking Nothing.

I understand that this is not a popular perspective, but this is how the Christ influenced me, and why what HE did and endured for me is so powerful, and worthy of my deepest and most heartfelt honor and servitude. You are the first person I have ever heard that understands in this way too. "


Great topic and thank you for it.

The problem with your above argument is that the Son is a Divine Person. Jesus person is Divine as the 2nd Person of the Trinity. The Phil 2 passage means He did not use those Divine attributes ( His Divinity ) to His own advantage but laid those rights to use them aside in obedience to do the Fathers will and accomplish our salvation through His Atonement for our sins. His perfect obedience was unto death like the passage says about Him. He remained fully God having all the same attributes as the Father but did not use them, He restrained the using of them for His own advantage. That is what the Biblical Trinitarian believes happened at the Incarnation for those 33 years.

 

[Dizerner]

Appeal to Ignorance. The foundation of trinitarianism.

I subscribe to the famous quote by Galileo. I don't believe in a God who would endow us with a reasoning mind, only to have us forego it's use.

This boils down the vice of pride, the original and primal sin.

God does not owe us anything, nor could he possibly force himself to be contained by a created thought.

It is a lack of reliance and dependence, a lack of brokenness and humility, and insistence of sufficiency within the creature.

Pride goes before the fall, and most people caught up in false doctrine have hidden pride they are (often) unaware of.

 

[Wrangler]

This boils down the vice of pride

Agreed! You deny the explicit word of God: there is one God, the Father, and Jesus is an Anointed man of God, who was given all authority by God in heaven and Earth. Very prideful indeed.

 

[Studyman]

The problem with your above argument is that the Son is a Divine Person. Jesus person is Divine as the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
The Phil 2 passage means He did not use those Divine attributes ( His Divinity ) to His own advantage but laid those rights to use them aside in obedience to do the Fathers will and accomplish our salvation through His Atonement for our sins.
His perfect obedience was unto death like the passage says about Him. He remained fully God having all the same attributes as the Father but did not use them, He restrained the using of them for His own advantage. That is what the Biblical Trinitarian believes happened at the Incarnation for those 33 years.

Doesn't the Trinitarian doctrine teach that it is impossible for a man to obey God? And that the only reason Jesus could even be obedient unto death was because HE was God? So isn't the very foundation of this doctrine, based on the belief that HE did use Devine Power no other human had ever possessed, to live in obedience to God in order to qualify to take the death I deserved away? And given the wages of Sin is death, then certainly this doctrine implies Jesus used these God powers no other human has ever possessed, for His Own Advantage.

Therefore, in this doctrine, His reward that no other human has ever achieved, was granted to Him, not because HE was a human tempted in all ways as His brethren, yet without Sin as the Scriptures teach. But because HE possessed and used powers only God possesses, to be sinless.

Yes, many Scriptures about Him certainly are problematic to the popular Trinitarian doctrine. And in my view, certainly worthy of careful examination given the warnings of this same Christ regarding the "many" who come in His Name.

It seems prudent to consider, what If Jesus was a man, just like you and me. What if HE did Risk His immortality, or as HE put it, "Lay down His Life" for us. What if HE did have skin in the game, and "Learned obedience" and "learned to choose the good over the Evil" like men are instructed to do, and remained steadfast with the same Armor and Spiritual Help that God, His Father and my Father, had available to all men?

Heb. 5: 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Surely food for thought.

 

[Dizerner]

And given the wages of Sin is death, then certainly this doctrine implies Jesus used these God powers no other human has ever possessed, for His Own Advantage.

How is suffering for others' sins, Christ's own advantage?
That's your advantage, and my advantage.

What if HE did have skin in the game, and "Learned obedience" and "learned to choose the good over the Evil" like men are instructed to do, and remained steadfast with the same Armor and Spiritual Help that God, His Father and my Father, had available to all men?

Even with divine power he still has "skin in the game."

1. He had to suffer the wrath of God for our sins, the greatest temptation known to any creature of all time.

2. He still had free will and so could choose to attempt his own way if he so desired—he was not forced.

Surely food for thought.

Yes!

Good pushback.

 

[civic]

Doesn't the Trinitarian doctrine teach that it is impossible for a man to obey God? And that the only reason Jesus could even be obedient unto death was because HE was God? So isn't the very foundation of this doctrine, based on the belief that HE did use Devine Power no other human had ever possessed, to live in obedience to God in order to qualify to take the death I deserved away? And given the wages of Sin is death, then certainly this doctrine implies Jesus used these God powers no other human has ever possessed, for His Own Advantage.

Therefore, in this doctrine, His reward that no other human has ever achieved, was granted to Him, not because HE was a human tempted in all ways as His brethren, yet without Sin as the Scriptures teach. But because HE possessed and used powers only God possesses, to be sinless.

Yes, many Scriptures about Him certainly are problematic to the popular Trinitarian doctrine. And in my view, certainly worthy of careful examination given the warnings of this same Christ regarding the "many" who come in His Name.

It seems prudent to consider, what If Jesus was a man, just like you and me. What if HE did Risk His immortality, or as HE put it, "Lay down His Life" for us. What if HE did have skin in the game, and "Learned obedience" and "learned to choose the good over the Evil" like men are instructed to do, and remained steadfast with the same Armor and Spiritual Help that God, His Father and my Father, had available to all men?

Heb. 5: 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Surely food for thought.

He was in perfect relationship with the Father 24/7. He only said the things the Father told Him to say and only did the things He saw His Father doing. They tried to kill Him for those claims in John 5-10. His eternal fellowship with the Father never changed when He became man. That fellowship and unity never changed. They were of one mind, one purpose which was for the redemption of man through His atonement for sin. Together they achieved that goal to perfection. That was Their plan from the beginning.

 

[Studyman]

He was in perfect relationship with the Father 24/7. He only said the things the Father told Him to say and only did the things He saw His Father doing.

Yes, this was the instruction from this same "Rock of Israel" to Israel, before HE became a man.

Ex. 19: 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

And again;

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Holy One of Israel) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This same instruction was given to Abraham as well, and the Jesus "of the Bible" said Abraham was glad to receive it.

Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

The Jesus of the Bible also brough this same message.

Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And again, "where HE was before";

Is. 1: 16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

So then, if I believe the Holy Scriptures, Jesus the man, followed His Own instruction that HE gave to Israel as the Rock Paul said "Was Christ".

Am I not also instructed to "Walk even as HE walked"? Shall the sins of my past stop me from "turning to God" and clinging to Him as the Lord's Christ instructed?

They tried to kill Him for those claims in John 5-10. His eternal fellowship with the Father never changed when He became man. That fellowship and unity never changed.

Yes, this is true. His Teaching or the "Mind of Christ" never changed when HE became a man. HE still followed the exact same gospel, walked in the exact same way, as HE instructed others to walk in.

It is this world's religions who preach to the world that God created instructions impossible for a man to walk in. And that the only way Jesus could walk in it, was because HE was God and not really a man.

Jesus proved once and for all, that if a man follows HIS instruction, and separates themselves from this world's religions as HE did, that we can as it is written; Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

As HE said, "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"

They were of one mind, one purpose which was for the redemption of man through His atonement for sin.

Yes, and we are instructed to have this same mind in us.

Together they achieved that goal to perfection. That was Their plan from the beginning.

Yes, and Abraham, though his sins were many at the age of 75, was brought to perfection in the same way. And Caleb, and Joshua, and Zacharias and all the examples of faith written for us in the Holy Scriptures, served God acceptably "with reverence and godly fear:"

And how did they serve God in this way? By being renewed in the Spirit of their mind, and putting on the New man, with the Mind of Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

Do I then think Jesus is no longer God?

All thoughts are welcome.

Jesus was never God. Even now, in heaven sitting on YHWH's throne, he is still not God. Rev 1:1, 3:12.

Does language usage extend to your way of thinking that a person can be a servant of themselves?

 

[Dizerner]

Jesus was never God. Even now, in heaven sitting on YHWH's throne, he is still not God. Rev 1:1, 3:12.

Does language usage extend to your way of thinking that a person can be a servant of themselves?

The case for Christ's divinity is absolutely overwhelming:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/i-wish-i-were-a-unitarian.617/page-2#post-15697

The roles and functions of the Persons of God allow them to relate to each other in different ways.

 

[Wrangler]

The case for Christ's divinity is absolutely overwhelming

Except for the fact that proves he is not God, that he died.

 

[Dizerner]

Except for the fact that proves he is not God, that he died.

There's no valid contradiction with God dying, see thread did God die for the arguments.

 

[Wrangler]

There's no valid contradiction with God dying

LOL. God is either eternal or mortal.

 

[Dizerner]

LOL. God is either eternal or mortal.

God is immortal, but this does not mean you cannot die.

It means you cannot STAY dead.

 

[civic]

LOL. God is either eternal or mortal.

False dichotomy fallacy. God became mortal and died on the cross, death does not mean cease to exist it means the body has died nor the spirit/ soul that has been separated from the body .

 

[Wrangler]

God is immortal, but this does not mean you cannot die.

Definitions are not the friend of trinitarians.

P1. God never dies (is eternal and unchanging). Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17​

P2. Jesus (was born, grew, became weary and) died.​

C. Jesus is NOT God.​

From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immortal

mortal​

1 of 2

adjective​

im·mor·tal (ˌ)i-ˈmȯr-tᵊl

Synonyms of immortal
1
: exempt from death

 

[Wrangler]

False dichotomy fallacy.

True dichotomy called the Law of Identity. Things either are or are NOT a certain way.

This truth may be time dependent, like we used to breath water in the womb and now breath air. But not both at the same time.

 

[APAK]

God is immortal, but this does not mean you cannot die.

It means you cannot STAY dead.

Pardon the interruption, although I see a very creative way here of you attempting to devise an impossible argument, ensuring that Jesus stays a part of the Triune god that aligns with your beliefs I presume.

Are you not forgetting that it is his Father who has the last say in the matter of leaving his Son for dead or not. Jesus was mortal and was very dead like you or I in the future. He had no power to become alive again as we are also powerless.

And hello dizerner...

 

[Studyman]

Definitions are not the friend of trinitarians.

P1. God never dies (is eternal and unchanging). Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17​

P2. Jesus (was born, grew, became weary and) died.​

C. Jesus is NOT God.​

From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immortal

mortal​

1 of 2

adjective​

im·mor·tal (ˌ)i-ˈmȯr-tᵊl

Synonyms of immortal
1
: exempt from death

I agree that the Holy One of Israel, their Redeemer, came to earth as a mortal man, not God.

I think Paul tries to explain what happens to men that causes them to create their own images of God. I hope you don't mind a short study which in part, drew me to my conclusions.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein (from within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 2:4, found within the Gospel of Christ)

So according to Paul, the Law and Prophets, the only Holy Scriptures available to him, which was also the same Holy Scriptures the Lord's Christ taught from, is the Gospel of Christ that Israel rejected. "Heb. 4: 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Paul continues;

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Again, these truths about God are revealed in the Gospel of the Christ of the Bible, which is the Law and Prophets. Clearly, God's wrath against men was not revealed in the Testimony of Witness, or as the RCC labeled it, "The New Testament".

Paul continues;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Just as HE has shown it to us through them. As Paul explains in another place. 1 Cor. 10:6 "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted." And again; "11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

Paul continues;

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God's Eternal Godhead wasn't "made", as there is no beginning nor end regarding God and His Son, unless one of them "lay down their lives". But we/men are made, and we/men have been shown, so there is no excuse for us/men. So why then, are there so many religious businesses and religious sects (Bodies) "Who come in Christ's Name", but all promoting different doctrines?

I believe Paul tells us.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Religions have rejected God's "Way", His Commandments and Judgments from the very beginning. When a man judges God and His instruction in such a manner, it causes spiritual Blindness which leads to deception. Deception being defined as "Believing things which are not true".

Paul continues;

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (We see these statues of "the mother of god", and images of their god in the likeness of some random long haired handsome man.)

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies (churches, religious sects etc) between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

So this world's religions, who come in Christ's Name, have created their own god with long hair and handsome profile, and they worship him. When the Christ "of the Bible" instructs men to Worship His Father.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

This is a tough pill for many to swallow, just as it would have been for the Jews in Christ's Time, who had also created their own religion, and their own "image of God" while, as the Christ of the Bible teaches "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition".

Sorry about the long-winded post, it's such an important topic.