An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

What God “desires” is that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth, and that is exactly what “He [ will] do”.

So God has “one mind” and one will, or “desire”, and not three.

Wow. This is REALLY bad exegesis.

There is not even the word for "mind" in Job 23:13, and not even the word for heart, which many translations will turn as mind by idiom.

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To be of "one mind" means to be determined to do something, as we can see by idiom in a place like this:

and all the rest of Israel were of one mind to make David king. (1 Chr. 12:38 NKJ)

According to this "professional?" exegete, apparently all of Israel only has one corporate singular mind.

This is just very sloppy and irresponsible handling of God's Word.

I can't but condemn it.
 
That's not what the verse says, Christ said he had one will, singular, and the Father had one will, singular.

Christ did not say "Not one of my wills, but your will be done."

Let's put aside volumes of human philosophy and stick with what the text tells us.



You are incorrect.

This is clearly what the verse says, it says Christ has one singular will, and the Father has one singular will.

Elsewhere we can also clearly see the Spirit's one singular will:

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. (1 Cor. 12:11 NKJ)

This is the most plain and straight forward reading of Scripture.

We get into trouble when we let people "explain us out of" the plain meaning by saying it "can't mean" what it means because of endless human philosophy and speculation.

Back to the Bible!
Are you speculating? Or just "figure it out?"

 
That's not what the verse says, Christ said he had one will, singular, and the Father had one will, singular.

Christ did not say "Not one of my wills, but your will be done."

Let's put aside volumes of human philosophy and stick with what the text tells us.



You are incorrect.

This is clearly what the verse says, it says Christ has one singular will, and the Father has one singular will.

Elsewhere we can also clearly see the Spirit's one singular will:

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. (1 Cor. 12:11 NKJ)

This is the most plain and straight forward reading of Scripture.

We get into trouble when we let people "explain us out of" the plain meaning by saying it "can't mean" what it means because of endless human philosophy and speculation.

Back to the Bible!
1. Jesus is not two persons, contra nestorianism. He is one person.

2. Jesus has two natures, contra the monophysites. Jesus is true God and true man.

3. He has two wills (contra the monothelites).

The above is clearly the Definition of Chalcedon and the Athanasian Creed and the historical position of the church.

The hypostatic union enables us to ascribe to God what belongs to the flesh in Christ.
How then is Christ (whom you term a mere man) proclaimed in Holy Scripture to be God without beginning, if by our own confession the Lord’s manhood36 did not exist before His birth and conception of a Virgin? And how can we read of so close a union of man and God, as to make it appear that man was ever co-eternal with God, and that afterwards God suffered with man: whereas we cannot believe that man can be without beginning or that God can suffer? It is this which we established in our previous writings; viz., that God being joined to manhood,37 i.e., to His own body, does not allow any separation to be made in men’s thoughts between man and God. Nor will He permit anyone to hold that there is one Person of the Son of man, and another Person of the Son of God. But in all the holy Scriptures He joins together and as it were incorporates in the Godhead, the Lord’s manhood,38 so that no one can sever man from God in time, nor God from man at His Passion. For if you regard Him in time, you will find that the Son of man is ever with the Son of God. If you take note of His Passion, you will find that the Son of God is ever with the Son of man, and that Christ theSon of man and the Son of God is so one and indivisible, that, in the language of holy Scripture, the man cannot be severed in time from God, nor God from man at His Passion. Hence comes this: “No man hath ascended into heaven, but He who came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.”39 Where the Son of God while He was speaking on earth testified that the Son of man was in heaven: and testified that the same Son of man, who, He said, would ascend into heaven, had previously come down from heaven. And this: “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where He was before,”40 where He gives the name of Him who was born of man, but affirms that He ever was up on high. And the Apostle also, when considering what happened in time, says that all things were made by Christ. For he says, “There is one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things.”41 But when speaking of His Passion, he shows that the Lord of glory was crucified. “For if,” he says, “they had known, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.”42 And so too the Creed speaking of the only and first-begotten Lord Jesus Christ, “Very God of Very God, Being of one substance with the Father, and the Maker of all things,” affirms that He was born of the Virgin and crucified and afterwards buried. Thus joining in one body (as it were) the Son of God and of man, and uniting God and man, so that there can be no severance either in time or at the Passion, since the Lord Jesus Christ is shown to be one and the same Person, both as God through all eternity, and as man through the endurance of His Passion; and though we cannot say that man is without beginning orthat God is passible, yet in the one Person of the Lord Jesus Christ we can speak of man as eternal, and of God as dead. You see then that Christ means the whole Person, and that the name represents both natures, for both man and God are born, and so it takes in the whole Person so that when this name is used we see that no part is left out. There was not then before the birth of a Virgin the same eternity belonging in the past to the manhood as to the Divinity, but because Divinity was united to manhood in the womb of the Virgin, it follows that when we use the name of Christ one cannot be spoken of without the other.

Philip Schaff, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Second Series Vol. XI, Sulpititus Severus, Vincent of Lerins, John Cassian. (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997), 602.

IF anyone shah after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connexion alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together (συνόδω), which is made by natural union (ἐ̂̔́νωσιν φυσικὴν): let him be anathema.

Philip Schaff, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Second Series Vol. XIV, The Seven Ecumenical Councils. (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997), 211.

WCF- "So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion. Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ ... "
 
In the 3rd Council of Constantinople this is called the "economic conversation":

"Defining all this we likewise declare that in him are two natural wills and two natural operations indivisibly, inconvertibly, inseparably, inconfusedly, according to the teaching of the holy Fathers.

And these two natural wills are not contrary the one to the other (God forbid!) as the impious heretics assert, but his human will follows and that not as resisting and reluctant, but rather as subject to his divine and omnipotent will....

We glorify two natural operations indivisibly, immutably, inconfusedly, inseparably in the same Lord Jesus Christ our true God, that is to say a divine operation and a human operation, according to the divine preacher Leo, who most distinctly asserts as follows: " For each form does in communion with the other what pertains properly to it, the Word, namely, doing that which pertains to the Word, and the flesh that which pertains to the flesh."

For we will not admit one natural operation in God and in the creature, as we will not exalt into the divine essence what is created, nor will we bring down the glory of the divine nature to the place suited to the creature.

We recognize the miracles and the sufferings as of one and the same Person, but of one or of the other nature of which he is and in which he exists, as Cyril admirably says. Preserving therefore the inconfusedness and indivisibility, we make breifly this whole confession, believing our Lord Jesus Christ to be one of the Trinity and after the incarnation our true God, we say that his two natures shone forth in his one subsistence in which he both performed the miracles and endured the sufferings through the whole of his economic conversation, and that not in appearance only but in very deed, and this by reason of the difference of nature which must be recognized in the same Person, for although joined together yet each nature wills and does things proper to it and that indivisibly and inconfusedly. Wherefore we confess two wills and two operations, concurring most fitly in him for the salvation of the human race." Percival, 345
 
Wow. This is REALLY bad exegesis.

There is not even the word for "mind" in Job 23:13, and not even the word for heart, which many translations will turn as mind by idiom.

View attachment 484

To be of "one mind" means to be determined to do something, as we can see by idiom in a place like this:

and all the rest of Israel were of one mind to make David king. (1 Chr. 12:38 NKJ)

According to this "professional?" exegete, apparently all of Israel only has one corporate singular mind.

This is just very sloppy and irresponsible handling of God's Word.

I can't but condemn it.
Job 23:13 But He [is]H1931 Conj-w+Pro-3ms wə·hū וְה֣וּא [uniquly] oneH259 Prep-b+Number-ms ḇə·’e·ḥāḏ בְ֭אֶחָד and whoH4310 Conj-w+Interrog ū·mî וּמִ֣י can make Him changeH7725 H8686 V-Hifil-Imperf-3ms+3mse yə·šî·ḇen·nū יְשִׁיבֶ֑נּוּ and [whatever] His soulH5315 Conj-w+N-fsc+3ms wə·nap̄·šōw וְנַפְשׁ֖וֹ desires,H183 H8765 V-Piel-Perf-3fs ’iw·wə·ṯāh אִוְּתָ֣ה and [that] He does.H6213 H8799 Conj-w+V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms way·yā·‘aś וַיָּֽעַשׂ׃

והואH1931 באחדH259 ומיH4310 ישׁיבנו ונפשׁוH5315 אותהH183 ויעשׂ׃H6213


Are you separating the boule and thelema of God-and has the nefesh nothing to do with the lev shome'a?

Are you advocating there are three different wills?

And you want to accuse me of sloppy exegesis?
 
That's not what the verse says, Christ said he had one will, singular, and the Father had one will, singular.
I agree. I think it's one of those things yes he did but no he didn't it all depends on how one insists what the meaning of words have to mean. We even say at times we didn't want to do what God said. He says giving up somethings at times is like cutting off our hand or foot.

We say I didn't want to and yet we choose to embrace what should be the greater priorities. We really and truly didn't have two wills. What we did ultimately I'd say is what we did with our ONE will. I'd say it was the same thing with Christ.
We get into trouble when we let people "explain us out of" the plain meaning by saying it "can't mean
I think we're all guilty of that to one degree or another. At times people do need explained out of certain things. There are a number of things I don't believe can mean a certain way but I do think people lack restraint on how many times they use such rhetoric.

Of course some might say I shouldn't hold something can't mean a certain thing about anything but none the less I do and I can't see myself changing that. We all know people can be really out there on the fringe and I'm referring to people like in the cults.
 
That's not what the verse says, Christ said he had one will, singular, and the Father had one will, singular.

Christ did not say "Not one of my wills, but your will be done."

Let's put aside volumes of human philosophy and stick with what the text tells us.



You are incorrect.

This is clearly what the verse says, it says Christ has one singular will, and the Father has one singular will.

Elsewhere we can also clearly see the Spirit's one singular will:

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. (1 Cor. 12:11 NKJ)

This is the most plain and straight forward reading of Scripture.

We get into trouble when we let people "explain us out of" the plain meaning by saying it "can't mean" what it means because of endless human philosophy and speculation.

Back to the Bible!
YES, but THEIR Wills are ECHAD = ONE WILL

Echad(one) is used when there is a Plurality but that Plurality is acting/moving/WILLING as ONE

Thus ELOHIM (Plural) gave us the INSIDER INFORMATION = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likeness"
FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT creating as ONE Will

We see this ONE WILL again in Exodus and again in the Gospel = Matthew 3:16
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”


Did JESUS pray to the Father - not my will be done but thine for Himself or for us to SEE what we must do in order to please God?
Example: John 12:27-33
27“Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
Father, glorify Your name.”
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”

Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake.

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
 
Wow. This is REALLY bad exegesis.

There is not even the word for "mind" in Job 23:13, and not even the word for heart, which many translations will turn as mind by idiom.

View attachment 484

To be of "one mind" means to be determined to do something, as we can see by idiom in a place like this:

and all the rest of Israel were of one mind to make David king. (1 Chr. 12:38 NKJ)

According to this "professional?" exegete, apparently all of Israel only has one corporate singular mind.

This is just very sloppy and irresponsible handling of God's Word.

I can't but condemn it.
Conclusion
The doctrine of inseparable operations is by no means simply a deductive implication of the divine unity and simplicity. It is first established by fidelity to biblical revelation, which teaches that Christ is doing the exact same works of the Father, starting with the unique act of creation. We do not experience as such this unity of the operation any more than the Flatlander experiences the sphere as such. Yet we confess it and believe it on the strength of the biblical revelation. It is because we recognize Jesus as sharing the works of the Father that we can confess his divinity. Thus, the doctrine of the Trinity ultimately rests on the biblical datum of inseparable operations. But the reverse is also true: triune unity necessarily implies the inseparability of God’s external operations. Because the persons do not partition the divine essence, and because God does not depend in any way on anything outside of Godself, the persons always act in the world in virtue of their common nature, and thus inseparably. This doctrinal rule is consistent with biblical revelation, properly understood, and with the affirmation of the incarnation of the Son alone.


I am more interested in the grace and mercy of God and what Jesus has done-and still doing with me-a work in progress than mere philosophizing on non salvivic issues-miss @101G
 
YES, but THEIR Wills are ECHAD = ONE WILL

Echad(one) is used when there is a Plurality but that Plurality is acting/moving/WILLING as ONE

Thus ELOHIM (Plural) gave us the INSIDER INFORMATION = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likeness"
FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT creating as ONE Will

We see this ONE WILL again in Exodus and again in the Gospel = Matthew 3:16
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”


Did JESUS pray to the Father - not my will be done but thine for Himself or for us to SEE what we must do in order to please God?
Example: John 12:27-33
27“Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
Father, glorify Your name.”
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”

Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake.

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
With some there is a opportunity to share and be edified-not so with others.
Shalom.
J.
 
Then since scripture never mentions a sin nature stop believing that lie. :)
It says very clearly there is another/different law at work in the flesh/body.

What law do you think it is and did God put it there? If not how did it get there?

I have stated more than once, the term "sin nature" is a misnomer as it is not a nature in the sense we understand nature but it is a physical corruption in the DNA which is how it can be inherited as the only thing we get from our parents is our body.

We are born wrong. A corrupted body and no capacity to know God. If it were not for the grace of God we would all end up totally depraved.
 
Then since scripture never mentions a sin nature stop believing that lie. :)

Do you accept that the Scripture speaks of the nature of sin =
the many forms it takes as well as the first sin along with the progenitor of sin AND our propensity to sin?
 
Yes, Paul said no good thing dwells in his flesh.

But apparently these guys have LOTS of good things dwelling in their flesh, lol.

Pride, pride, pride.
Actually, if true, that would be residing in their soul (mind/heart/attitude). The sin nature only acts as a tempter, like the serpent in the garden, only from within instead of from without.
 
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