All Claims of The Son's Deity

[TomL]

As a son in the royal family he did not see himself on equal grounds and thus emptied his royal right and humbled himself to be a servant. How you twist and spin this into he had to be God when nothing like that is said in that verse is beyond me.

What royal family?

What time relation did this bear to him becoming man?

BTW do not try to twist my argument as this was presented to address one thing and that was pre-existence to becoming a man

You know, that issue you keep dodging.

 

[Peterlag]

What royal family?

What time relation did this bear to him becoming man?

BTW do not try to twist my argument as this was presented to address one thing and that was pre-existence to becoming a man

You know, that issue you keep dodging.

Saying you are the son of God does not make you God. It does put you in the same family to whatever the Father has. If you're a king then the son would be a prince and therefore share in the kingdom on equal ground pertaining to the kingdom. If your dad is a business owner then it would put you on equal ground in the family business to share in the wealth and even run the business later on. The Jews understood that custom and even we do today in our country.

 

[Peterlag]

then deal with the text

Philippians 2:5–7 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man,'


When did Christ exist in the form of God in relation to becoming a man?

Can a non-existent, non-personal thing consider?

I have dealt with the text many times. You believe the word "form" is something different than what I believe. Your idea makes Jesus God which is not what Jesus is. My idea of that word "form" does not make Jesus God which is correct. This I have dealt with a hundred times and you keep saying I have not.

 

[Peterlag]

Excellent! Well, John 1:14 says it's the Word who became flesh that is the only begotten Son from the Father. So, since you believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father then logically, the Word (who became flesh) is Jesus. Case closed.

(John 1:14) And the Word became flesh, and he lived among us, and we saw his glory, glory like that of an only-begotten son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The man Jesus was the written Word in the flesh because he always spoke God's Word. Case closed.

 

[Peterlag]

Where do you see any reference to wisdom and how can you state creation is not involved

John 1:3 (NASB95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Clearly the reference is to creation, which you denied

God's wisdom is an it. Wisdom is not a living creature. Nor is knowledge, or insight. I can literally say my knowledge was good with that test. It served me well. I would not say he served me well.

 

[synergy]

The man Jesus was the written Word in the flesh because he always spoke God's Word. Case closed.

Where did you get the word "written" from??? I warned you that without Biblical support, your assertions will automatically be filed under Heresies, in the trash can in other words. And that's exactly what's going to happen with your heretical words. Good Night.

 

[Peterlag]

Where did you get the word "written" from??? I warned you that without Biblical support, your assertions will automatically be filed under Heresies, in the trash can in other words. And that's exactly what's going to happen with your heretical words. Good Night.

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[ProDeo]

John 10:30
There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one,

John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.

And (using your words) Jesus words were so common that :

John 10:31 - The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. -- for the Jews it was not common at all --
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

The Jews understood perfectly what Jesus just said and they wanted to kill Jesus for what He claimed to be.

And it wasn't the first time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus when He called Himself I am.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Jesus calling Himself as God, that is God the Son in the human form, referring to :

Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The Jews understood perfectly what Jesus just said and they wanted to kill Jesus for what He claimed to be.

I am pretty new here, you probably heard this xx times and I wonder why you can't see it, or should I say, accept what is so clear, or is it related to our 21th century rational minds that demand the deity of Christ must be understood, and since that's impossible, let's look for alternative explanations?

 

[TomL]

God's wisdom is an it. Wisdom is not a living creature. Nor is knowledge, or insight. I can literally say my knowledge was good with that test. It served me well. I would not say he served me well.

Where do you see any reference to wisdom and how can you state creation is not involved

John 1:3 (NASB95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Clearly the reference is to creation, which you denied

and


Philippians 2:5–8 (NASB95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

still shows personal pre-existence

 

[TomL]

I have dealt with the text many times. You believe the word "form" is something different than what I believe. Your idea makes Jesus God which is not what Jesus is. My idea of that word "form" does not make Jesus God which is correct. This I have dealt with a hundred times and you keep saying I have not.

If you had you would have addressed the questions asked


Philippians 2:5–7 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man,'


When did Christ exist in the form of God in relation to becoming a man?

Can a non-existent, non-personal thing consider?

but you clearly did not.

 

[TomL]

Saying you are the son of God does not make you God. It does put you in the same family to whatever the Father has. If you're a king then the son would be a prince and therefore share in the kingdom on equal ground pertaining to the kingdom. If your dad is a business owner then it would put you on equal ground in the family business to share in the wealth and even run the business later on. The Jews understood that custom and even we do today in our country.

The questions were

What royal family?

In particular

What time relation did this bear to him becoming man?

I do not see an answer

 

[Peterlag]

The questions were

What royal family?

In particular

What time relation did this bear to him becoming man?

I do not see an answer

God's royal family. He was the son of God who emptied himself of that and humbling himself severed as a servant. How you get he's God out of that verse is beyond me.

 

[Peterlag]

If you had you would have addressed the questions asked


Philippians 2:5–7 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man,'


When did Christ exist in the form of God in relation to becoming a man?

Can a non-existent, non-personal thing consider?

but you clearly did not.

Nobody can answer your question because the question does not exist. There is no Christ before becoming a man. That's like asking what was I before I was born. And I answer by saying I was not here before I was born. And you say I'm not answering the question.

 

[Peterlag]

Where do you see any reference to wisdom and how can you state creation is not involved

John 1:3 (NASB95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Clearly the reference is to creation, which you denied

and


Philippians 2:5–8 (NASB95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

still shows personal pre-existence

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Peterlag]

John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.

And (using your words) Jesus words were so common that :

John 10:31 - The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. -- for the Jews it was not common at all --
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

The Jews understood perfectly what Jesus just said and they wanted to kill Jesus for what He claimed to be.

And it wasn't the first time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus when He called Himself I am.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Jesus calling Himself as God, that is God the Son in the human form, referring to :

Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The Jews understood perfectly what Jesus just said and they wanted to kill Jesus for what He claimed to be.

I am pretty new here, you probably heard this xx times and I wonder why you can't see it, or should I say, accept what is so clear, or is it related to our 21th century rational minds that demand the deity of Christ must be understood, and since that's impossible, let's look for alternative explanations?

The Jews did not pick up stones because Jesus said he was God. They picked up stones because he said he was the son of God. Saying you are the son of God does not make you God. It does put you in the same family to whatever the Father has. If you're a king then the son would be a prince and therefore share in the kingdom on equal ground pertaining to the kingdom. If your dad is a business owner then it would put you on equal ground in the family business to share in the wealth and even run the business later on. The Jews understood that custom and even we do today in our country.

 

[synergy]

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing.

"Also" to whom or what, to Jesus? Are you actually saying that Jesus is also "the Word in writing"??? Really? A being is a writing? What are you smoking these days?

Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ.

The NKJV mentions birth of Jesus Christ in Matt 1:18. Your Arian Standard Version Bible should be immediately dismissed.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

So now it's a plan became flesh? You can't even keep your heresies straight. It's back to the drawing board for your Arian beliefs.

 

[Peterlag]

"Also" to whom or what, to Jesus? Are you actually saying that Jesus is also "the Word in writing"??? Really? A being is a writing? What are you smoking these days?

The NKJV mentions birth of Jesus Christ in Matt 1:18. Your Arian Standard Version Bible should be immediately dismissed.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

So now it's a plan became flesh? You can't even keep your heresies straight. It's back to the drawing board for your Arian beliefs.

I can't make any sense out of your above comments. There's no switching back and forth about the logos being referred to as God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, that is called the Word in the book of John that became flesh in Jesus Christ.

 

[synergy]

I can't make any sense out of your above comments. There's no switching back and forth about the logos being referred to as God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, that is called the Word in the book of John that became flesh in Jesus Christ.

This is where knowledge of Greek is vital in order to understand when the Bible is speaking of Jesus (Preincarnate or Incarnate), when it is speaking about the spoken word, and when it is speaking of the written word.

In the Koine Greek NT, λογος/λογω is for the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ, ρημα/ρηματι is for the spoken word, and λογον is for the written/recorded/memorized word.

For example, John 1:14 mentions λογος who is the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ. The Word of God is clearly described as a Person in Rev 19:11-16.

If one is not careful with Koine Greek then he ends up making a total mess of things.

 

[TomL]

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

There is no mention of wisdom anywhere in john 1:1-3

and john 1:18 refers to the incarnation

Before the incarnation we had one who existed in the form of God who could consider.

'
Philippians 2:5–8 (NASB95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

His pre-existence is further shown

Jude 4–5 (LEB) — 4 For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[TomL]

Nobody can answer your question because the question does not exist. There is no Christ before becoming a man. That's like asking what was I before I was born. And I answer by saying I was not here before I was born. And you say I'm not answering the question.

The text clearly states otherwise

Philippians 2:5–7 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man,'

Why do you just ignore scripture?


When did Christ exist in the form of God in relation to becoming a man?

Can a non-existent, non-personal thing consider?

but you clearly did not.