All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Pancho Frijoles]

True

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Dear TomL and readers:

It is extremely likely that this is mistranslation, because there are about 140 instances in which Paul treats God and Jesus Christ as two separate persons… even in the epistle you are quoting! (read Titus 1:4)
Furthermore, in ALL the instances (100% of the 30 instances) in which Paul puts the Father and Jesus in the same sentence, he gives the title God only to the Father, never to Jesus!

So, what is more likely: a manipulation of a couple of verses, or a manipulation of 140 verses?
Considering the well know of the fraud of the Joannic comma, it should not come to a surprise that Trinitarian translators either deliberately or accidentally translated wrong Titus 2:13. Some day the error or fraud will be discovered , just as the Joannic comma.

Pancho Frijoles is not alone in this.
Look how these translations, to keep harmony with all other 140 Pauline verses, separate God from Jesus Christ also in Titus 2:13

• looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ, (KJ21)
• looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (ASV)
• Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (BRG)
• Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, (DRA)
• Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ.(GNV)
• And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious d?nouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. (PHILLIPS)
• as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ (NABRE)
• looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, (NMB)
• looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the Glory of the mighty God, and of our Savior, Jesus Christ; (RGT)
• abiding the blessed hope and the coming of the glory of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ (WYC)

 

[Dizerner]

Considering the well know of the fraud of the Joannic comma

Actually there are several good arguments that the Johannine comma was original, the strongest being the Greek grammar is invalid without it.

I suspect during the Arian dominance this passage was deliberately sabotaged, and that is why Cyprian of Carthage an early father still quotes it.

 

[Johann]

It is extremely likely that this is mistranslation, because there are about 140 instances in which Paul treats God and Jesus Christ as two separate persons… even in the epistle you are quoting! (read Titus 1:4)
Furthermore, in ALL the instances (100% of the 30 instances) in which Paul puts the Father and Jesus in the same sentence, he gives the title God only to the Father, never to Jesus!

So, what is more likely: a manipulation of a couple of verses, or a manipulation of 140 verses?
Considering the well know of the fraud of the Joannic comma, it should not come to a surprise that Trinitarian translators either deliberately or accidentally translated wrong Titus 2:13. Some day the error or fraud will be discovered , just as the Joannic comma.

Pancho Frijoles is not alone in this.
Look how these translations, to keep harmony with all other 140 Pauline verses, separate God from Jesus Christ also in Titus 2:13

• looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ, (KJ21)
• looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (ASV)

Incorrect Pancho.


The Granville Sharp Rule and Titus 2:13

Your argument hinges on the claim that "God" and "Jesus Christ" are treated separately in Pauline writings, but this ignores Greek grammatical structure. The phrase in Titus 2:13 reads:
προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

According to the Granville Sharp Rule, when two singular substantives are connected by καὶ (and) and share the same article (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν), they refer to the same person.

The rule is affirmed by scholars such as Daniel B. Wallace (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pp. 270–290), A.T. Robertson (A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, pp. 785–789), and Nigel Turner (A Grammar of New Testament Greek, Vol. 3, p. 20).

The proper reading is: “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

Consistent Use of the Granville Sharp Construction

This grammatical structure is used elsewhere in the NT in reference to the same person:

2 Peter 1:1: τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ = “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 5:5: ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ Θεοῦ = “in the kingdom of Christ and God” (one person).

2 Thessalonians 1:12: κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ = “according to the grace of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Paul Consistently Refers to Christ as God Elsewhere

Romans 9:5: ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων Θεὸς εὐλογητὸς – “Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever.”

Philippians 2:6: ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων – “who, being in the form of God.”

Colossians 2:9: ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς – “in Him dwells all the fullness of deity bodily.”

Acts 20:28: τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ Θεοῦ ἣν περιεποιήσατο διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου – “the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.”

Titus 1:4 Does Not Disprove the Granville Sharp Rule

Titus 1:4 states: Χάρις ἔλεος εἰρήνη ἀπὸ Θεοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν.

This verse uses two proper names (Θεοῦ Πατρὸς and Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ), which are naturally distinct.

Titus 2:13 is different because it follows the Granville Sharp construction, indicating one person.

Your Appeal to the Comma Johanneum is a Red Herring

The Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8) is widely acknowledged as a later interpolation.

Titus 2:13 has textual integrity across all manuscript traditions, including P46, Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, and Bezae.

This is not a case of interpolation but a legitimate Pauline statement affirming Christ’s deity.

Translation Differences Do Not Deny Christ’s Deity

The KJ21 and ASV translations cited render Titus 2:13 differently, but they do not contradict Christ’s deity.

Even in translations that render it differently, the Greek syntax remains unchanged, and the context favors the Granville Sharp reading.

Many major translations (NASB, ESV, LEB, NET, NIV, CSB) translate it as: “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”


The grammatical structure of Titus 2:13 affirms that Jesus is called “God” according to established Greek syntax.

Other Pauline texts, including Romans 9:5, Philippians 2:6, and Colossians 2:9, confirm Christ’s divine nature.

The appeal to Titus 1:4 fails because it does not follow the same syntactical pattern as Titus 2:13.

The Comma Johanneum is irrelevant because it involves textual corruption, whereas Titus 2:13 is linguistically sound and well-attested.

Therefore, your claim that Titus 2:13 is a mistranslation is incorrect.

"our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" Jesus is here unambiguously given the title of God! The Caesars claimed similar titles (i.e., Ptolemy I). The terms "appearing" (which contextually relates to Christ's Second Coming) and "great" are never used of YHWH. Also, there is no article with "savior." The syntax of Koine Greek supports this as a title for Jesus because there is only one article with both nouns, thus linking them together (see NET Bible). Jesus is divine (cf. Joh_1:1; Joh_8:57-58; Joh_20:28; Rom_9:5; Php_2:6; 2Th_1:12; Heb_1:8; 2Pe_1:1; 2Pe_1:11; 1Jn_5:20). In the OT the Messiah (see Special Topic at 1Ti_1:1) was expected to be a divinely empowered person like the Judges. His deity surprised everyone (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM at 1Ti_2:5)!
Utley.

We are in the last days.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Actually there are several good arguments that the Johannine comma was original, the strongest being the Greek grammar is invalid without it.

I suspect during the Arian dominance this passage was deliberately sabotaged, and that is why Cyprian of Carthage an early father still quotes it.

I guess the vast majority of modern scholars do not share your opinion in regard to the grammatical necessity.
In regard to history, I have not studied the topic, my friend, to give an opinion.

****
Two interesting observations:

1. How God speaks about Himself in the Bible: in singular or in plural?
Out of thousands of divine speech acts in scripture, God uses first-person plural pronouns in only 4 specific passages, representing less than 0.1% of divine pronominal self-references. None of them in the New Testament.

So, if God speaks about Himself as if He were a single person 99.9% of the times (100% in the New Testament)… shouldn’t we consider that there is something wrong in talking about the “plurality of God”?
Shouldn’t we agree that God wanted to reveal to man as a being with One Mind?

2. The New Testament contains no instances of plural pronouns applied to God, when the author talks about him in third person, even when they mention God (Theós) 1425 times.
Shouldn’t that tell us that something is wrong when people talk about “the plurality of God”?
Shouldn’t we think that the four evangelists, Paul and the rest wanted to present God as having One Mind?

 

[Fred]

1. How God speaks about Himself in the Bible: in singular or in plural?
Out of thousands of divine speech acts in scripture, God uses first-person plural pronouns in only 4 specific passages, representing less than 0.1% of divine pronominal self-references. None of them in the New Testament.

Which means both are true.
How many times does the Bible have to teach something for it to be true? Answer: Only once.

 

[Fred]

Dear TomL and readers:

It is extremely likely that this is mistranslation, because there are about 140 instances in which Paul treats God and Jesus Christ as two separate persons… even in the epistle you are quoting! (read Titus 1:4)
Furthermore, in ALL the instances (100% of the 30 instances) in which Paul puts the Father and Jesus in the same sentence, he gives the title God only to the Father, never to Jesus!

So, what is more likely: a manipulation of a couple of verses, or a manipulation of 140 verses?
Considering the well know of the fraud of the Joannic comma, it should not come to a surprise that Trinitarian translators either deliberately or accidentally translated wrong Titus 2:13. Some day the error or fraud will be discovered , just as the Joannic comma.

Pancho Frijoles is not alone in this.
Look how these translations, to keep harmony with all other 140 Pauline verses, separate God from Jesus Christ also in Titus 2:13

• looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ, (KJ21)
• looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (ASV)
• Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (BRG)
• Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, (DRA)
• Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ.(GNV)
• And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious d?nouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. (PHILLIPS)
• as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ (NABRE)
• looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, (NMB)
• looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the Glory of the mighty God, and of our Savior, Jesus Christ; (RGT)
• abiding the blessed hope and the coming of the glory of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ (WYC)

To whom do the pronouns "Himself" (x2) "He" and "His" in the following verse (Titus 2:14) refer to?

Titus 2:14
Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Incorrect Pancho.


The Granville Sharp Rule and Titus 2:13

Your argument hinges on the claim that "God" and "Jesus Christ" are treated separately in Pauline writings, but this ignores Greek grammatical structure. The phrase in Titus 2:13 reads:
προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

According to the Granville Sharp Rule, when two singular substantives are connected by καὶ (and) and share the same article (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν), they refer to the same person.

I agree, Johann, but you are referring to the grammatical situation of Titus 2:13, not to the grammatical situation of all other 140 Pauline verses.
What is the situation of the other 140 verses, in which Jesus and God do NOT share the same article?
And what is the grammatical situation of the 30 verses in which Paul mentions both the Father and Jesus but applies the title Theós ONLY to The Father? What is your grammar analysis of those 30 verses?

So, what I am saying is not that the manuscripts of the epistle of Titus that we have now have been wrongly translated, but that it is extremely likely that the originals were mistranslated… which explains why my view is consistent with at least 10 teams of translators (post#21).

Now, regarding Romans 9:5 that you are quoting

Paul treats God and Jesus as separate persons in the same epistle to Romans over and over and over and over and over and over. I’m ready to go one by one on all those “overs” if you are interested,
Not only that… there is more, Johann.

In the epistle of Romans, Paul, under divine inspiration…
1) sets the tone of talking about God and Jesus as separate persons from the very beginning of the epistle… from the salutation (1:7) !
2) indicates that The Father is the God of Jesus Christ “: so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 15:6)

Should we be surprised that Paul says explicitly that The Father is the God of Jesus?
Should we be surprised that Paul never says explicitly that Jesus is the God of the Father?

Paul Consistently Refers to Christ as God Elsewhere

No, my friend.
Three verses out of 140 is not what we understand by “Consistently”. Please do your math.

His deity surprised everyone

Well, Such an important, critical knowledge should never come as a surprise.
Jesus was a Jewish monotheist, those who listened to him were Jewish monotheists, and his disciples were Jewish monotheists.
There is no call from Jesus nor from his disciples to abandon Jewish monotheism. In everybody’s mind, God was One Single Person. A “He”.

 

[Dizerner]

I guess...
...I have not studied the topic...

Wildly persuasive.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Which means both are true.

No, Fred and @Dizerner.
Logically they can’t be both true. God cannot be One and More than One.
This is why you, as a Trinitarian, reject the idea that God is One Person.
Nobody in this Forum has ever claimed to be Unitarian and Trinitarian at the same time, precisely because it can’t be both.

So, we either believe the 99.9% and God reveals Himself having One Mind, and take the 0.1% as metaphorical or rethorical, or we believe the 0.1% and The Supreme Divine Council reveals itself as a team of several minds, and take the remaining 99.9% as rhetorical or metaphorical.

How many times does the Bible have to teach something for it to be true? Answer: Only once.

Fred and @Dizerner:

In all things pertaining to salvation, the truths from the Bible are presented UNEQUIVOCALLY AND REPEATEDLY.
That’s why nobody in this Forum debates whether God loves us, or whether we should repent, or whether we should trust God, and be born again, and love each other.
We don’t disagree on these things because they are presented UNEQUIVOCALLY and REPEATEDLY.

God UNEQUIVOCALLY and REPEATEDLY reveals Himself as if He were a He. Not as if He were a They.
So, either God is obsessed with misrepresenting Himself 99.9% of the times He gets a chance to speak with men, or we are the ones obsessed with misrepresenting Him.

This is so unequivocal and repeated, that YOU, my Trinitarian friends, treat God as a He, as a singular person, in your daily conversations and prayers and intimate thoughts. Isn’t this true?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Wildly persuasive.

Dear Dizerner and @Doug Brents

I am committed to use in my post more often
“I guess.. “
“To me…”
“In my opinion…”
“I see things differently…”
“My view is… but I may be wrong”

To be persuasive, we must start by being humble and recognize our biases, and the smallness of our minds compared with The Truth.
I suppose that You, who are so concerned about the sin of pride, will agree with me… but I may be wrong!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

2 Thessalonians 1:12: κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ = “according to the grace of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Almost all translators disagree with the version you are quoting here.
For 2 Thes 1:12, the number of translations separating God from Jesus is overwhelming. So overwhelming, that I won’t quote them here, unless you are interested.

The inspired author of 2 Thessalonians treats God and Jesus as different persons from the very first verses… and also in the very last verses! Not only that, Johann: Paul gives the title God to Our Father, just as Jesus did in John 20:17.

OPENING STATEMENT:
Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

CLOSING STATEMENT:
“May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.”

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

To whom do the pronouns "Himself" (x2) "He" and "His" in the following verse (Titus 2:14) refer to?

Titus 2:14
Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Those pronouns refer to Jesus, who was mentioned just before that sentence.

(By the way, now that you brought this up, Jesus is called “He” because He is one person… has one mind.
I hope you also recognize that God is called “He” for the same reason.)

Remember: for Paul, God is The Father of Jesus and Our Father, as per Romans 15:6. No surprise: This is consistent with John 20:17, 1 Peter 1:3 and Rev 1:6.
Paul refers to God as “God The Father” more than 30 times… and refers to God as “God The Son” zero times.

OPEN QUESTION

If Paul thought that believing in the deity of Jesus was crucial for salvation, and Paul’s readers already believed in the deity of the Father….
why would Paul waste chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance to assign Jesus the same title of Our Father and call him “God The Son” or “God Jesus”?
(If I wrote “after chance” 30 times, I got it right).

 

[TomL]

Dear TomL and readers:

It is extremely likely that this is mistranslation, because there are about 140 instances in which Paul treats God and Jesus Christ as two separate persons… even in the epistle you are quoting! (read Titus 1:4)
Furthermore, in ALL the instances (100% of the 30 instances) in which Paul puts the Father and Jesus in the same sentence, he gives the title God only to the Father, never to Jesus!

So, what is more likely: a manipulation of a couple of verses, or a manipulation of 140 verses?
Considering the well know of the fraud of the Joannic comma, it should not come to a surprise that Trinitarian translators either deliberately or accidentally translated wrong Titus 2:13. Some day the error or fraud will be discovered , just as the Joannic comma.

Pancho Frijoles is not alone in this.
Look how these translations, to keep harmony with all other 140 Pauline verses, separate God from Jesus Christ also in Titus 2:13

• looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ, (KJ21)
• looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (ASV)
• Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (BRG)
• Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, (DRA)
• Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ.(GNV)
• And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious d?nouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. (PHILLIPS)
• as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ (NABRE)
• looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, (NMB)
• looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the Glory of the mighty God, and of our Savior, Jesus Christ; (RGT)
• abiding the blessed hope and the coming of the glory of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ (WYC)

Sorry
Sharps rule when discovered states that when two nouns not proper names appear separated by the copulative KIA (and) and an article (the) appears before the first noun but not before the second noun, one person is meant

Thus modern versions note

Titus 2:13 (NASB95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (NIV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (UASV) — 13 Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (ESV) — 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (LSB) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (The Modern Language Bible: Berkeley Version) — 13 with expectation of that blessed hope, even the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (MEV) — 13 as we await the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (CSB) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (NRSV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (NLT) — 13 while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

Titus 2:13 (NKJV) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (NET) — 13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (NJB) — 13 waiting in hope for the blessing which will come with the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus.

Titus 2:13 (NCV) — 13 We should live like that while we wait for our great hope and the coming of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (CEV) — 13 We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (ISV) — 13 as we wait for the blessed hope and the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (GW) — 13 At the same time we can expect what we hope for—the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (RSV) — 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (TNIV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (EOB: NT) — 13 waiting for the blessed hope: the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (BSB) — 13 as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (ERV) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory is of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:13 (TPT) — 13 For we continue to look forward to the joyful fulfillment of our hope in the dawning splendor of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus, the Anointed One.

Titus 2:13 (BBE) — 13 Looking for the glad hope, the revelation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:13 (REB) — 13 looking forward to the happy fulfilment of our hope when the splendour of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus will appear.

Titus 2:13 (EHV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope, that is, the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.


ETC






Which is why modern bibles speak of Jesus Christ our great God and savior

following the pattern of

2 Peter 1:11 (LEB) — 11 For in this way entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied for you.

2 Peter 3:18 (LEB) — 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

2 Peter 2:20 (LEB) — 20 For if, after they have escaped from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these things and succumb to them, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

2 Peter 3:2 (LEB) — 2 to remember the words proclaimed beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sorry
Sharps rule when discovered states that when two nouns not proper names appear separated by the copulative KIA (and) and an article (the) appears before the first noun but not before the second noun, one person is meant

Thus modern versions note

Titus 2:13 (NASB95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (NIV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (UASV) — 13 Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (ESV) — 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (LSB) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (The Modern Language Bible: Berkeley Version) — 13 with expectation of that blessed hope, even the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (MEV) — 13 as we await the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (CSB) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (NRSV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (NLT) — 13 while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

Titus 2:13 (NKJV) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (NET) — 13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (NJB) — 13 waiting in hope for the blessing which will come with the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus.

Titus 2:13 (NCV) — 13 We should live like that while we wait for our great hope and the coming of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (CEV) — 13 We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (ISV) — 13 as we wait for the blessed hope and the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (GW) — 13 At the same time we can expect what we hope for—the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (RSV) — 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (TNIV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (EOB: NT) — 13 waiting for the blessed hope: the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (BSB) — 13 as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (ERV) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory is of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:13 (TPT) — 13 For we continue to look forward to the joyful fulfillment of our hope in the dawning splendor of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus, the Anointed One.

Titus 2:13 (BBE) — 13 Looking for the glad hope, the revelation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:13 (REB) — 13 looking forward to the happy fulfilment of our hope when the splendour of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus will appear.

Titus 2:13 (EHV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope, that is, the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.


ETC






Which is why modern bibles speak of Jesus Christ our great God and savior

following the pattern of

2 Peter 1:11 (LEB) — 11 For in this way entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied for you.

2 Peter 3:18 (LEB) — 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

2 Peter 2:20 (LEB) — 20 For if, after they have escaped from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these things and succumb to them, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

2 Peter 3:2 (LEB) — 2 to remember the words proclaimed beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,

Hi TomL

Thanks for your post. Please read my answer to Johann in post 27.
At least 10 translations do not yield the verse as you have quoted, because for many translator teams, this is not the way Paul used God and Jesus in the same sentence.
I encourage you to reflect:
why Paul used different articles for God and Jesus or treated God and Jesus as separate persons 94% of the time?
why Paul never seized the opportunity to give both the Father and Jesus the title “God”, when he had both names next to each other?

 

[TomL]

This time I didn’t understand your point
The scribe, doctor of the Law, worshiped YHWH, One Single a person. That’s Jewish monotheism. Do you agree so far?
Every time the scribe read or heard the Shema Israel, he, as millions of Jews of all time, thought in Adonai, YHWH, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: One single divine person.

Did Jesus ask the scribe to abandon that notion? No! Jesus and the scribe were in agreement. They praised each other’s answer. There was no change whatsoever to Jewish monotheism.
So, Jesus understanding of the oneness of God is the same scribes had… the same the rabbi of the synagogue of your city has.

This is the exchange they had

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”​

​

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, YHWH is one. Love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”​

​

“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”​

​

When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”​

What did you not understand

The Hebrew Shema

Deuteronomy 6:4 (UASV) — 4 “Hear, O Israel! Jehovah our God is one Jehovah!

when found in the New Testament Greek is

Mark 12:29 (UASV) — 29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord;

Where Jehovah has been replace with lord (kurios)

Jesus is to be confessed as lord for salvation

Romans 10:9 (UASV) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Thus confessing Christ as Jehovah is necessary for salvation

 

[TomL]

Hi TomL

Thanks for your post. Please read my answer to Johann in post 27.
At least 10 translations do not yield the verse as you have quoted, because for many translator teams, this is not the way Paul used God and Jesus in the same sentence.
I encourage you to reflect:
why Paul used different articles for God and Jesus or treated God and Jesus as separate persons 94% of the time?
why Paul never seized the opportunity to give both the Father and Jesus the title “God”, when he had both names next to each other?

So what? They are old translation written before the discovery and dissemination of Grandville sharps law of grammar

Sharps rule when discovered states that when two nouns not proper names appear separated by the copulative KIA (and) and an article (the) appears before the first noun but not before the second noun, one person is meant

Thus modern versions note

Titus 2:13 (NASB95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (NIV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (UASV) — 13 Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (ESV) — 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (LSB) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (The Modern Language Bible: Berkeley Version) — 13 with expectation of that blessed hope, even the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (MEV) — 13 as we await the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (CSB) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (NRSV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (NLT) — 13 while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

Titus 2:13 (NKJV) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (NET) — 13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (NJB) — 13 waiting in hope for the blessing which will come with the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus.

Titus 2:13 (NCV) — 13 We should live like that while we wait for our great hope and the coming of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (CEV) — 13 We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (ISV) — 13 as we wait for the blessed hope and the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (GW) — 13 At the same time we can expect what we hope for—the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (RSV) — 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (TNIV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Titus 2:13 (EOB: NT) — 13 waiting for the blessed hope: the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (BSB) — 13 as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (ERV) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory is of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:13 (TPT) — 13 For we continue to look forward to the joyful fulfillment of our hope in the dawning splendor of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus, the Anointed One.

Titus 2:13 (BBE) — 13 Looking for the glad hope, the revelation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:13 (REB) — 13 looking forward to the happy fulfilment of our hope when the splendour of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus will appear.

Titus 2:13 (EHV) — 13 while we wait for the blessed hope, that is, the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.


ETC






Which is why modern bibles speak of Jesus Christ our great God and savior

following the pattern of

2 Peter 1:11 (LEB) — 11 For in this way entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied for you.

2 Peter 3:18 (LEB) — 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

2 Peter 2:20 (LEB) — 20 For if, after they have escaped from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these things and succumb to them, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

2 Peter 3:2 (LEB) — 2 to remember the words proclaimed beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Where Jehovah has been replace with lord (kurios)

It has not been “replaced” semantically.
Jehovah even as Kurios, keeps being The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, your God. who raised Jesus from the dead.
And Jesus, even as Kurios, keeps being His Servant.

“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13)

While in Greek Kurios is assigned sometimes to YHWH, sometimes to Jesus, sometimes to even an angel, Theós is systematically assigned to the Father.
Let me say it once again: in 30 chances Paul has to assign Theós also to Jesus and not only to Our Father, or swap titles Kurios and Theos between Our Father and Jesus, Paul DOES NOT do it.
Paul, as a good Jew, firmly sticks to the notion that there is only one Theós, the Father.

Jesus is to be confessed as lord for salvation

Romans 10:9 (UASV) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Thus confessing Christ as Jehovah is necessary for salvation

For Paul, confessing Jesus as Kurios (lord, leader, master) is necessary for salvation because it means you listen to him, follow him and obey him. Paul didn’t think Jesus was God (Theós) and that’s why even in the same sentence you are quoting, Paul insists in distinguishing Jesus from God, who raised him from the dead.
It doe

 

[TomL]

It has not been “replaced” semantically.
Jehovah even as Kurios, keeps being The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Father of Jesus, who raised Jesus from the dead.
And Jesus, even as Kurios, keeps being His Servant.
“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” Acts 3:13

Oh but it has in the need to believe Jesus is Jehovah for salvation

The Hebrew Shema

Deuteronomy 6:4 (UASV) — 4 “Hear, O Israel! Jehovah our God is one Jehovah!

when found in the New Testament Greek is

Mark 12:29 (UASV) — 29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord;

Where Jehovah has been replace with lord (kurios)

Romans 10:9–13 (UASV) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call on him; 13 for “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

verse 9 in combination with verse 13 which is still speaking of Christ in its Old Testament reference

Joel 2:32 (UASV) — 32 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved;.......

Points to Christ being Jehovah

for If to be saved you need to Call upon the name of Jehovah and you are saved by calling on Christ then Christ is Jehovah

 

[Fred]

No, Fred and @Dizerner.
Logically they can’t be both true. God cannot be One and More than One.

Says you.

We don't go by our own logic, but what Scripture actually teaches (Acts 17:11).

 

[Fred]

Those pronouns refer to Jesus, who was mentioned just before that sentence.

Great.

(By the way, now that you brought this up, Jesus is called “He” because He is one person

Great

… has one mind.
I hope you also recognize that God is called “He” for the same reason.)

Paul applies "the mind of the Lord" from Isaiah 40:13 (LXX) to both the Father (Romans 11:34) and to the Son (1 Corinthians 2:16).

Remember: for Paul, God is The Father of Jesus and Our Father, as per Romans 15:6.

Jesus is not the Father. Great.

No surprise: This is consistent with John 20:17, 1 Peter 1:3 and Rev 1:6.
Paul refers to God as “God The Father” more than 30 times… and refers to God as “God The Son” zero times.

That's because there is more than one way to express a truth claim.

OPEN QUESTION

If Paul thought that believing in the deity of Jesus was crucial for salvation, and Paul’s readers already believed in the deity of the Father….
why would Paul waste chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance to assign Jesus the same title of Our Father and call him “God The Son” or “God Jesus”?
(If I wrote “after chance” 30 times, I got it right).

By applying an OT text about YHWH (cf. Joel 2:32) in reference to Jesus in Romans 10:13 expresses the same idea. See my previous comment.