One cannot alter definitions to suit one's theology
Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation
- Thread starter dwight92070
- Start date
Sorry it is not clear and is assumed by you in contradiction to scripture which shows the indwelling is an example of receiving the Spirit
John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
Yep -- Exo 28:3 You shall speak to all the skillful, whom I have filled with a spirit of skill, that they make Aaron's garments to consecrate him for my priesthood.
Num 11:25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it.
Num 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe. And the Spirit of God came upon him,
etc., etc.
Nothing there refutes the claim that being indwelt by the Spirit equals receiving the spirit
John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
In fact, you do not even address it
But it addresses the claim that one can receive the Spirit and not yet be a forgiven, indwelt child of God. And that is the situation with Cornelius in Acts 10. He received the empowering Holy Spirit to work the miracle of speaking in tongues.
It also addresses the claim that to not receive the Holy Spirit to work miracles is unrelated to receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit which is the situation in Samaria and Philip in Acts 8. They believed and were baptized (v. 12) in the name of the Lord Jesus (v.14) for which their sins were forgiven and they received the gift of the (indwelling) Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). But they had not received the empowering Holy Spirit (vv.15-17). For that the apostles, Peter and John, went down to Samaria and laid hands on them and with that they received the empowering Holy Spirit.
First Cornelius got saved
Acts 11:12–14 (KJV 1900) — 12 And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house: 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Second those in acts 8 had not received the spirit so they were not indwelt
Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
you got them both backwards
No, I didn't get them both backward, but you are free to believe whatever you want.
My addressing them obviously will not change your mind.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, even according to the verse you quoted above, it is very clear that the Samaritans in Acts 8 were saved, thus they had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, they had the "river of living water" flowing out from their soul. But what they did not have was the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit which could be seen on the outside, which only the Apostles could pass on through the laying on of hands.
Sorry no it is not clear they had received the Spirit
Acts 8:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
And Simon does not appear saved
Acts 8:18–23 (KJV 1900) — 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
By your own theology, baptism is the "first action AFTER salvation is received". These men had clearly received the Word of God, and then been baptized into Christ. The Holy Spirit is the seal, the down-payment, the guarantee, that is given to ALL those who are in Christ. So it is clear that these men had the indwelling of the Spirit because they were already saved. The Apostles did not preach the Gospel to them again, they did not re-baptize them, they did not instruct them to repent and convert to following Christ. They simply laid hands on them and passed on the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit.
It is very clear that Simon was also saved, having believed the Gospel and been baptized into Christ. But he still had some bad habits, tendencies, and ideas that needed to be pruned by the Holy Spirit. He was not told to again be baptized, he was not told to convert to following Jesus. He was simply told to repent and pray for forgiveness.
Again they had not received the Holy Spirit
The holy Spirit is what makes alive - regenerates
Water of itself does not do that
All that you mention can go to show they had the promise of the spirit, but they had not yet received it as the text states
Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Up to that time none but Jews had received the Spirit. God's promise was fulled in stages. Jew first, then Samaritans who were half Jews and then finally Gentiles. All under the witness of an apostle
civic
Well-known member
yes one cannot receive the Spirit apart from the indwelling and one cannot be indwell with the Holy Spirit unless they have received the Holy Spirit. And we know this did not happen to the disciples until the Day of Pentecost arrived. This is why upon Jesus departure He commanded them to wait until that day.
But our poster desires to advance a doctrine of water baptism so he denies one who has not received the spirit is not indwelt
civic
Well-known member
ditto as we know baptism follows belief in the gospel and the indwelling of the H.S.
Not to you perhaps. But it should be. It is a promise that God made to the repentant believer:
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Wrong.
Give the boy a cookie, he figured it out.
I have never said that water regenerates. The water itself is nothing, but the obedience to God is EVERYTHING.
The Holy Spirit is not reliant on man to do anything. Those who are saved receive the Holy Spirit immediately. It does not take an Apostle to save someone. The Samaritan men in Acts 8 were saved, they had received the indwelling of the Spirit, they have been baptized into Christ. None of this can be refuted, unless you deny Scripture.
No, Civic, the Apostles, and the 120 with them, had the indwelling of the Spirit from John 20:22. On Pentecost, they received miraculous power. In Acts 8, the Samaritans also already had the indwelling, but had not had the Spirit "fall on them" (see bolded Scripture above).
If, as you claim, baptism "follows belief ... and the indwelling" then the Samaritans had been indwelt already, since they had believed and been baptized.
But you have it out of order, the indwelling occurs during baptism which is the point at which salvation is received.
civic
Well-known member
Doug Brents
Well-known member
This occurred after Jesus' glorification, so it falls after the prophecy of John 7:39 was fulfilled. Jesus gave the Apostles and the other disciples the indwelling of the Spirit, and all that was received on Pentecost was the miraculous working of the Spirit (He fell ON them, not INTO them), just as occurred with the Samaritans, and with Cornelius.
