My sentiments exactly.
A request
- Thread starter FreeInChrist
- Start date
Runningman
Active Member
That's my understanding as well, even though I have seen mixed answers.
Anyway, probably the greatest weakness of Trinitarianism is that it's a doctrine. The way doctrines work is by taking a bit of info here, a bit there, and putting it all together and providing an interpretation about what it means. However, the trinity itself is not explicitly described or explained in Scripture nor are the same conclusions that trinitarians came to provided by anyone in the Bible.
If you want to start the debate with Red Baker getting nowhere fast then requiring him to provide a statement or example of the trinity in the Bible would be the way to go. Discussing what verses mean and how to interpret them is something even trinitarians can do, but they can only do so on the assumption the trinity is true. That's why I say it's better for any such formal debate on the topic begin with a trinitarian providing a statement about who God is. For example, we know the only God is the Father and we can see where the Bible explicitly says that more than once. However, trinitarians cannot provide an equivalent verse about God being a trinity.
@Studyman
Stop talking and join the debate, put your money where your mouth is ~ if you truly thought have the truth, you would, as much as you boast of being free of other deceived voices in the "garden" as you would say it.
You should be ashamed of not being honest, but obviously your conscience is harden, all who have ever heard us go back and forth knows otherwise. You have never once put forth a scripture that I would not address, never once, unless I never saw it, or got distracted which could happen to anyone ~God is my witness, I never purposely avoided any questions, after all, why should I coming from a person as confused as you are on so many doctrines.
Stop talking and join the debate, put your money where your mouth is ~ if you truly thought have the truth, you would, as much as you boast of being free of other deceived voices in the "garden" as you would say it.
@Peterlag
I'm a member of the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven!
God's children have never protested any truth, so, truly the very elect have never been part of the "protestant movement".
I'm a member of the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven!
Hebrews 12:23
“To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
civic
Active Member
Projecting since Unitarianism is based solely upon presuppositions
civic
Active Member
The biggest weakness of Unitarianism is its their made up their own doctrine and its unbiblical.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I am responding only because it has not started yet. And you invoked a subject that is not for debate.
First of all. That is not necessary for a debate on the Deity of the Messiah simply because the third member in the God head
is not who is being debated about.
As to the Trinity... You need to do the study that goes back into the Old Testament to start and it takes time, and I am not your teacher nor your provider..... And while I do have a great teaching link, I am not going to provide it because you
wont read it, but you will rip it apart.
You first need to get a base of The Plurality of the Godhead, The Unity of the Godhead, and The Trinity of the Godhead.
And that starts with The Plurality of the Godhead in the Old Testament.
The Plural Noun of Elohim
The Plural Verbs used with Elohim
The Noun Elohim applied to two persons
The Name YHVH applied to two persons
The Plural Noun Adonai
The Plural Pronouns
The Plural Adjectives
The Angel of Jehovah
The Son of God
The God-Man Concept
The Holy Spirit
And these are just a start.
But I would not expect someone who never had any kind of a teaching to accept or reject to acccept
works from a source he could not tear apart.
Interesting that he trusts his own self-studies and refuses to even consider if there has been an error.
Every one opposed to this idea has been given all the verses of surety that the Trinity is real, alive and well. But
the sad thing is it is always the translation that is to fault, or what they read does not mean what it says, or
that it never was there in the first place or is it simply a lie.
So no more because it wont be read, as this likely has not either.
Tah!
@Runningman
One thing I can say about you Mr. Runningman, you are true to your name! You have your tail tuck bewtween your legs and are heading the other way.
That's two of them that I have given to you, but I have more. My teaching on the Trinity is not the same as most folks as you shall soon find out.
I believe there is a trinity concerning the Godhead "only" as it pertains to each one's work in the redemption of God's elect. The Godhead is ONE, yet manifest to His people as three according to the salvation of God's elect. Without controversy, great is this mystery of godliness. God is a Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will, that can never change, no never. Jesus Christ is the ONLY God that man shall ever see according to Matthew 5:8! When eternity sets in, and God's children inherit all the promises made to them through Jesus Christ, then Jesus in his humanity shall submit himself unto God, who is a Spirit!
Let us debate Jesus' deity as the MIGHTY GOD that he is.
You, @Peterlag @Keiw1 and @Studyman should step forth and defend your position,.. Peter so far has. If one of you four refuse to do so, then you should stop postings lies concerning Jesus Christ.
The debate is concerning Jesus' deity of being God, manifest in the flesh. We are starting there, for if you, or Peter denies that truth, then it is over, and most likely will be, since it should not take very long to prove that you both badly deceived and laboring to deceive others.
One thing I can say about you Mr. Runningman, you are true to your name! You have your tail tuck bewtween your legs and are heading the other way.
2nd Corinthians 13:14
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.That's two of them that I have given to you, but I have more. My teaching on the Trinity is not the same as most folks as you shall soon find out.
I believe there is a trinity concerning the Godhead "only" as it pertains to each one's work in the redemption of God's elect. The Godhead is ONE, yet manifest to His people as three according to the salvation of God's elect. Without controversy, great is this mystery of godliness. God is a Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will, that can never change, no never. Jesus Christ is the ONLY God that man shall ever see according to Matthew 5:8! When eternity sets in, and God's children inherit all the promises made to them through Jesus Christ, then Jesus in his humanity shall submit himself unto God, who is a Spirit!
Let us debate Jesus' deity as the MIGHTY GOD that he is.
You, @Peterlag @Keiw1 and @Studyman should step forth and defend your position,.. Peter so far has. If one of you four refuse to do so, then you should stop postings lies concerning Jesus Christ.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@civic.
This is the problem of some of the posters here and why I address this to you and not @Runningman .
For if I did to him, he simply cannot understand that there is nothing in this specific debate on the Trinity.
IT is ONLY about the Deity of Jesus Christ.
He already is going to ignore the rules to stay on topic.
Proving that he has reading comprehension issues.
As he has been given scripture after scripture on the Trinity and cant understand them
Please.... can you explain that and this debate rules.
Remind him that they are to talk of and refer to one person, not three here. Maximum 2 if the Father is mentioned....
Thank you Brother
Titus
Active Member
Your appeal is to the Jews?
You do know they are lost because they rejected God?
Matthew 21:43,
- therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you(hebrew, jew) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof
Titus
Active Member
What's the subject?
Peterlag
Active Member
I don't see it going to far because they are going to do what they always do.
Say it does not have to be in the Bible or you have to be born again to see it and I can't because I'm an unbeliever.
Say God did not need to write it down because it's a mystery.
And the best one is that was when Jesus was acting only in his human side.
Peterlag
Active Member
You are referring to the New Testament Jews and I am not. I said what I said in regards to the entire Old Testament where a teaching of the Trinity is not mentioned.
Titus
Active Member
The new testament Jews are the Jews from the old testament.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
That would be me.
Not all rejected God... but you obviously do not know that.
Lets not talk about who has rejected Jesus, for I know more non Jews that have then Jews that have.
They STILL are the fig tree and you are merely grafted in with them. DONT forget that.
And above all DO NOT FORGET your Lord and your Savior was a Jew, born from woman Jew, with a step father who was a Jew (Joseph) and a bloodline back to David who was a Jew, and His 12 disciples were Jews, and he came for the Lost sheep of Israel, and when he sent them out he said
"These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
FreeInChrist
Active Member
FreeInChrist
Active Member
So you are admitting there is a teaching in the New?
And before you say it is not there either....,
READ (Now posted in General Topics so I can access at the ready.
Where in the Bible Does it Say Jesus is God: 11 Important Key Verses
Where in the Bible Does it Say Jesus is God The Bible explicitly states that Jesus is God in several passages. John 1:1 declares, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Colossians 2:9 affirms, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."...
The Bible explicitly states that Jesus is God in several passages. John 1:1 declares, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Colossians 2:9 affirms, “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”
In John 10:30, Jesus says, “I and My Father are one,” indicating His divine nature. Additionally, Titus 2:13 refers to Jesus as “our great God and Savior,” and Hebrews 1:8 quotes God addressing the Son, saying, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.”
The following are 11 key verses that will give you more insights into scriptures that back up the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ is one with God:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
This verse introduces the concept of the “Word” (logos), identifying it as preexisting with God from the beginning and also being divine in nature. It establishes the eternal existence and divine identity of Jesus Christ as the Word.
Studying this verse is essential for understanding the foundational belief in Jesus’s preexistence and divinity. It lays the groundwork for comprehending Jesus’s role in creation and His unique relationship with God the Father.
Through this verse, we grasp the profound theological truth that Jesus is not only a human being but also the eternal Word of God incarnate.
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
This verse declares that the Word, who was with God and was God from the beginning, became flesh and dwelt among humanity. It affirms the miraculous reality of the Incarnation, wherein the eternal Word took on human form and lived among us.
Studying this verse deepens our understanding of the mystery of the Incarnation—the central event of Christianity. It reveals God’s profound love and desire to reconcile humanity to Himself by sending His Son in human form.
Through Jesus Christ, God bridged the gap between divinity and humanity, offering salvation and redemption to all who believe.
“I and My Father are one.”
In this verse, Jesus declares, “I and the Father are one,” affirming His divine unity with God the Father. He claims equality with God, expressing the inseparable union between Himself and the Father.
Studying this verse illuminates the deity of Jesus Christ and His unique relationship with God the Father. It highlights Jesus’s authority and divine nature, reinforcing the Christian belief in the Trinity—the doctrine of God’s triune nature as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Understanding this verse deepens our appreciation for Jesus’s identity as the Son of God and strengthens our faith in His power and sovereignty.
“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;”
This verse emphasizes that in Jesus Christ, the fullness of the Godhead resides in bodily form. It asserts the complete and perfect union of divinity and humanity in Jesus, affirming His identity as fully God and fully human.
Studying Colossians 2:9 is crucial for grasping the profound truth of the Incarnation—that in Jesus Christ, God took on human flesh.
It reaffirms the core Christian doctrine of the hypostatic union, which teaches that Jesus possesses both divine and human natures united in one person.
Understanding this verse deepens our appreciation for the mystery of God’s incarnation and underscores the significance of Jesus’s redemptive work on behalf of humanity.
“Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,”
This verse describes Jesus Christ as existing in the very nature of God, yet willingly choosing humility and obedience by not exploiting His equality with God for selfish gain. It underscores Jesus’s divine nature and His voluntary self-emptying to take on human form.
Studying Philippians 2:6 illuminates the character of Jesus Christ as both divine and humble. It challenges us to emulate His example of selflessness and obedience, even in the face of great privilege and authority.
This verse also reinforces the biblical teaching on the nature of Christ, affirming His preexistence, deity, and sacrificial love for humanity.
Understanding Philippians 2:6 deepens our reverence for Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and inspires us to follow His example of humility and service in our lives.
“But to the Son He says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.'”
This verse quotes from Psalm 45:6, addressing the Son as “O God,” affirming His divine nature and eternal reign. It declares the Son’s sovereignty and everlasting authority, emphasizing His divine status and preeminence.
Studying Hebrews 1:8 reinforces the biblical teaching on the deity of Jesus Christ. It provides clear evidence from the Old Testament that the Son is addressed as God, affirming His equality with the Father. Understanding this verse deepens our understanding of Jesus’s divine identity and reinforces our confidence in His eternal reign as Lord and King.
“looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,”
In this verse, believers are encouraged to eagerly await the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. It identifies Jesus Christ as both “our great God” and “Savior,” affirming His divine nature and role in redemption.
Studying Titus 2:13 underscores the deity of Jesus Christ and His central role in the Christian faith. It affirms that Jesus is not only our Savior but also our great God, emphasizing His divine authority and majesty.
This verse instills hope and anticipation in believers as we await the glorious return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Understanding Titus 2:13 deepens our devotion to Jesus and reinforces our confidence in His promise to return and establish His eternal kingdom.
“For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
Isaiah 9:6 prophesies about the birth of a child who will hold the government upon his shoulders. The verse describes the child with several divine titles: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace. This prophecy points to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, and highlights His divine nature and role as the Savior of humanity.
Studying Isaiah 9:6 reveals the Messianic prophecy fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It emphasizes Jesus’s deity and His attributes as the source of wisdom, strength, eternal life, and peace.
Understanding this verse deepens our appreciation for the significance of Jesus’s birth and His mission to reconcile humanity to God. It strengthens our faith in Jesus as the promised Messiah and encourages us to rely on Him as our Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace.
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Matthew 1:23 quotes the prophecy from Isaiah 7:14, affirming that the virgin will conceive and bear a son, who will be called Immanuel, meaning “God with us.” This verse highlights the miraculous nature of Jesus’s birth and emphasizes His divine identity as God incarnate.
Studying Matthew 1:23 underscores the miraculous conception of Jesus Christ and His unique role as God dwelling among humanity.
It affirms Jesus’s deity and His intimate presence with His people. Understanding this verse deepens our understanding of the Incarnation—the central mystery of the Christian faith—and reinforces our confidence in Jesus as the promised Messiah who brings salvation and reconciliation.
It also reminds us of the profound truth that God is not distant or unreachable but intimately present with us through Jesus Christ, our Immanuel.
“of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.”
Romans 9:5 declares that Christ is God over all, forever praised. This concise statement affirms the deity of Jesus Christ, emphasizing His eternal nature, authority, and sovereignty over all creation.
Studying Romans 9:5 reinforces the biblical teaching on the divinity of Jesus Christ. It provides a clear declaration of Jesus’s deity, underscoring His equality with God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Understanding this verse deepens our faith in Jesus as the divine Son of God and reinforces our worship and praise of Him as the one true God. It also strengthens our confidence in His power to save and reign over all creation for eternity.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8 contains a proclamation from the Lord God, identifying Himself as the Alpha and the Omega, the one who is, who was, and who is to come—the Almighty.
This verse emphasizes God’s eternal existence, omnipotence, and sovereign authority over all time and space.
Studying Revelation 1:8 reveals the majestic nature of God as the eternal and omnipotent Creator. It underscores His sovereignty over all things, past, present, and future.
Understanding this verse deepens our reverence for God and strengthens our trust in His unfailing power and faithfulness. It reminds us that God is the ultimate source of hope and security, deserving of our worship and adoration.
The Bible unequivocally proclaims the divinity of Jesus Christ through various passages that highlight His eternal existence, divine attributes, and unique relationship with God the Father.
The 11 key verses discussed in this article collectively affirm that Jesus is indeed God, worthy of worship, honor, and devotion.
Understanding these scriptures enriches our faith, deepens our relationship with Jesus, and reinforces the core tenet of Christianity: that in Christ, God became flesh to dwell among us, offering redemption and eternal life.
As we reflect on these powerful biblical truths, may our faith be strengthened and our devotion to Jesus as Lord and Savior be evermore profound.
@FreeInChrist
This verse alone destroys their (@Peterlag @Runningman @Keiw1 @Studyman) whole position as a doctrine of devils.
Peterlag
Active Member
The book of Revelation does not teach that Jesus is God or even deal with Christianity. It's a book written in parables and figures of speech based on the customs and culture of Israel that deal with what will concern Israel in the future. The words “I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God” are not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. These words apply to God, not to Christ. The one “who is and who was and who is to come” is clearly identified in the context as God, not Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:4-5 reads: “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” The separation between “the one who is, was and is to come” and Jesus Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God.
The phrase “the Alpha and the Omega” has caused many people to believe this verse refers to Christ. However, study of the occurrences of the phrase indicates that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies solely to God. Scholars are not completely sure what the phrase “the Alpha and the Omega” means. Lenski concludes “it is fruitless to search Jewish and pagan literature for the source of something that resembles this name Alpha and Omega. Nowhere is a person, to say nothing of a divine Person, called "Alpha and Omega" or in Hebrew, Aleph and Tau.
Although there is no evidence from the historical sources that anyone is named “the Alpha and Omega” Bullinger says that the phrase “is a Hebraism, in common use among the ancient Jewish Commentators to designate the whole of anything from the beginning to the end." That would make the expression the figure of speech polarmerismos, similar to "and there was evening, and there was morning” which stands for the whole day in Genesis 1. The best scholarly minds have concluded that the phrase has something to do with starting and finishing something, or the entirety of something. Norton writes that these words “denote the certain accomplishment of his purposes; that what he has begun he will carry on to its consummation.
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