A request

[FreeInChrist]

So the fact that trinitarians who are more well-read, learned, and studied than you are are saying that 1 John 5:7 is fake and that it doesn't appear in any modern Bible seems irrelevant to you?

HOW MUCH MMORE MODERN THEN FEB 2, 2020 DO YOU WANT????/

2009 SEEMS REASONABLY MODERN TO ME.

1982 SEEM REASONABLY MODERN TO ME, ALSO.

King James Bible (1611- orig olde english))
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

New King James Version (1982 with NT 1979)
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Webster's Bible Translation (1833)
For there are three that bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

Literal Standard Version ( February 2, 2020)
because [there] are three who are testifying [[in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one;

Young's Literal Translation (1862)
because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;

Smith's Literal Translation (1876)
For three are testifying (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

Douay-Rheims Bible ( 1609)
And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

Catholic Public Domain Version ( March 28, 2009 )
For there are Three who give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And these Three are One.

Lamsa Bible (1933)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Haweis New Testament (1795)
For they are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these, even the three, are one.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Red Baker, for like to 100th time, I understand that the Holy One of Israel, "The Rock", "The Light of this world", who His Father Sent to Create all that is created, to show men in the way that they should go, is the "Word of God"

Studyman, let me go a little slower with you no pun intended. So, to see if you believe what you are saying let me ask you this simple question: The Word in John 1:1 is God, period, without any qualifications. So, are you ready to confess that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the fest, yes, or no? If no, then "you do not believe" in the true deity of Jesus Christ as the God of Genesis 1:1.

I'm coming back to consider the rest of your post, but you need to answer my question, with a yes or no, if no, then explain yourself.

 

[FreeInChrist]

If @Runningman agrees to this then I have a rule myself. We deal with one topic at a time. We stay with one verse at a time. No 35 verses at once throwing everything on the wall at once and hoping something will stick.

I saw this Friday on another site...

I WANT TO DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO A RHETORICAL TACTIC BEING DEPLOYED HERE — KNOWN AS THE GISH GALLOP. THIS IS A DEBATE STRATEGY WHERE ONE SIDE FIRES OFF A MASSIVE NUMBER OF ARGUMENTS, POINTS, AND CLAIMS IN RAPID SUCCESSION, WITH THE CLEAR INTENT TO OVERWHELM AND EXHAUST ANYONE TRYING TO RESPOND.

Yes, you accused me of this because I posted 11 scriptures of proof and you cannot handle it. 11 that indicate a single thing.

THE PURPOSE OF A GISH GALLOP IS NOT TO ENGAGE IN HONEST DIALOGUE OR FAIR DISCUSSION. INSTEAD, IT SEEKS TO FLOOD THE CONVERSATION WITH SO MANY POINTS THAT NO ONE CAN REASONABLY ADDRESS THEM ALL, CREATING THE FALSE IMPRESSION THAT THE ARGUMENTS ARE INSURMOUNTABLE OR THAT THE OTHER SIDE HAS NO ANSWER.

THIS IS AN ILLEGITIMATE PRACTICE THAT UNDERMINES MEANINGFUL DEBATE, STALLS REASONABLE INVESTIGATION, AND PROMOTES CONFUSION OVER CLARITY. IF YOU VALUE INTELLECTUAL HONESTY AND SERIOUS SCRIPTURAL EXAMINATION, I URGE YOU TO RECOGNIZE THIS STRATEGY FOR WHAT IT IS AND NOT ALLOW IT TO DISTRACT FROM THE CORE ISSUES.

LET’S FOCUS ON QUALITY OVER QUANTITY AND ENGAGE WITH SCRIPTURE IN A FAIR, CLEAR, AND HONEST MANNER — NOT WITH RHETORICAL FLOODING INTENDED TO DROWN TRUTH IN A SEA OF WORDS.

 

[Runningman]

HOW MUCH MMORE MODERN THEN FEB 2, 2020 DO YOU WANT????/

2009 SEEMS REASONABLY MODERN TO ME.

1982 SEEM REASONABLY MODERN TO ME, ALSO.

King James Bible (1611- orig olde english))
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

New King James Version (1982 with NT 1979)
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Webster's Bible Translation (1833)
For there are three that bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

Literal Standard Version ( February 2, 2020)
because [there] are three who are testifying [[in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one;

Young's Literal Translation (1862)
because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;

Smith's Literal Translation (1876)
For three are testifying (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

Douay-Rheims Bible ( 1609)
And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

Catholic Public Domain Version ( March 28, 2009 )
For there are Three who give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And these Three are One.

Lamsa Bible (1933)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Haweis New Testament (1795)
For they are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these, even the three, are one.

There are better manuscripts that have been discovered that are older. When a manuscript is older and contains a different reading than a newer manuscript, it means that the older manuscript is more in line with what people were bellieving in the earliest church. The idea being we want to know what Jesus and the disicples were teaching early on, not what developed later, because there are so many manuscript variations that contradict each other, esepcially as time has progressed.

The general consensus is that 1 John 5:7 is not authentic. What you quoted above is a very famous forgery and has been well documented. This particular forgery even has a name and they call it the Johannine comma.

So what you and @Red Baker have started with 1 John 5:7 is not produce evidence, but rather reignite a decades long debate about the authenticicty of the verse. For the record, your team lost. Not many agree with you guys about this verse, even among Trinitarians. So let's skip the theatrics because the score has already been settled on this one. Most newer Bibles do not have 1 John 5:7, as evidenced by your reply, because it's fake.

Again, you guys cannot even provide one verse or passage where God is described as three persons who are one God. How can you debate something you cannot even provide a Biblical premise for?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Don’t we already have a multitude of threads on this same subject? I don’t get it.

It is because Red wanted to debate 3 people because these 3 are among the worst against Jesus being God.

Not in sentiment but in avoidance of responding answering replies.

I would say yes open to all but then admin would have a heck of a time keeping the subject to the one issue and that is
the Divinity of Jesus Christ.

Already I have been hit from 2 difference sources... out of those three who are trying to take this into a Trinity debate.

Even they want to wander off, and that is because they are unsure of exactly how to respond.

I was accused of ...." What I see from you is a rhetorical tactic being deployed here known as the Gish Gallop." when I posted
11 scriptures not even close to the threads on this, but supporting the subject at hand and basically I guess I was hitting too low?

11 scriptures that all support one idea. Yeppers... very distracting. But not meant for debate influencing.

 

[FreeInChrist]

There are better manuscripts that have been discovered that are older. When a manuscript is older and contains a different reading than a newer manuscript, it means that the older manuscript is more in line with what people were bellieving in the earliest church. The idea being we want to know what Jesus and the disicples were teaching early on, not what developed later, because there are so many manuscript variations that contradict each other, esepcially as time has progressed.

The general consensus is that 1 John 5:7 is not authentic. What you quoted above is a very famous forgery and has been well documented. This particular forgery even has a name and they call it the Johannine comma.

So what you and @Red Baker have started with 1 John 5:7 is not produce evidence, but rather reignite a decades long debate about the authenticicty of the verse. For the record, your team lost. Not many agree with you guys about this verse, even among Trinitarians. So let's skip the theatrics because the score has already been settled on this one. Most newer Bibles do not have 1 John 5:7, as evidenced by your reply, because it's fake.

Again, you guys cannot even provide one verse or passage where God is described as three persons who are one God. How can you debate something you cannot even provide a Biblical premise for?

Runningman, How old are you? Do you suffer from dementia?

How MANY TIMES do I have to say I am not debating. I am volunteer traffic control

And now you want older when you did say more modern........ sheeesh
Older then 1609 or 1611?

I know exactly what you mean..... one of these???

The best answer to what you are going to post which is about For there are three bearing testimony: IS THIS NOT SO?

…6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.…

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

That this Christ, offering Himself a Living Sacrifice to God for the redemption of men who would deny themselves, pick up their corruptible flesh, that Adam and Eve and all men are created with, and follow Him, like Noah and Abraham did, in spite of all the "other voices" in the world God placed them in, to test their faith.

With you, is a little like raising my children many years ago, I could not always play my ace card, somethings you just have to let go, or there's a constant battle~you have so many errors that one just has to go with the very serious ones and let the others go and let others deal with them, or I would never get anything done dealing with folks who have so many errors.

You said: "for the redemption of men who would deny themselves"

Jesus Christ gave himself for sinners, ungodly sinners ~not for men who would deny themselves. The Just died for the unjust! The new birth gives one the power to do spiritual acts, pleasing to God, by the Spirit of God creating within his elect a new man that has the power to see, hear, and to repent, and to gladly follow the word of God, but not until then!

Romans 4:5​

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Romans 5:6​

“For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.”

1st Timothy 1:15​

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”

You said: "pick up their corruptible flesh"

What are you talking about? Pick up your corruptible flesh? The Spirit of God leaves our sinful flesh alone, he creates a new man in his people, and by this new man they have the power to be put to death the deeds of the old man, but not until the Spirit of God first create a new man in his very elect.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

That is, in my sinful, wicked flesh! False teachers of the word of God exalts man's natural flesh as a good thing, a sign that they are not of God in teaching the truth of His word.


I'll come back and finish later...

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

I am volunteer traffic control

LOL!

 

[Peterlag]

Yes, you accused me of this because I posted 11 scriptures of proof and you cannot handle it. 11 that indicate a single thing.

There is not a trinity verse in the world that I can't handle because there's no trinity verse in the Bible. Where do these ideas come from? That because someone does not want to address 11 different viewpoints that they are then accused of dodging or can't handle it. Here's how I edited it down...

What I see from you is a rhetorical tactic being deployed here known as the Gish Gallop. It's a debate strategy where one side fires off a massive amount of arguments, points, and claims all in one post with the clear intent to overwhelm and exhaust anyone trying to respond. The purpose of the Gish Gallop is to flood the conversation with so many points that nobody can reasonably address them all, creating the false impression that their arguments are insurmountable or that the other side has no answers.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I am volunteer traffic control

@FreeInChrist

LOL!

And if I dont get things moving smoothly... soon... I am going to call out the National Guard .

But only with @Administrator's directive.

 

[FreeInChrist]

There is not a trinity verse in the world that I can't handle because there's no trinity verse in the Bible. Where do these ideas come from? That because someone does not want to address 11 different viewpoints that they are then accused of dodging or can't handle it. Here's how I edited it down...

What I see from you is a rhetorical tactic being deployed here known as the Gish Gallop. It's a debate strategy where one side fires off a massive amount of arguments, points, and claims all in one post with the clear intent to overwhelm and exhaust anyone trying to respond. The purpose of the Gish Gallop is to flood the conversation with so many points that nobody can reasonably address them all, creating the false impression that their arguments are insurmountable or that the other side has no answers.

You are repeating yourself... twice at me with this Gish Gallop Gobbledygook and one other on the forums that you were informing others of.

And there is not scripture referring to the bible either.... so are we reading a fantasy?

BTW, thanks.... Gish Gallop. I like it, now to use it.....

 

[FreeInChrist]

From what I see in this thread I would recommend @Red Baker and @Peterlag start with a one on one. Then @Runningman could follow with @Red Baker when the first debate has ran its course and is over. Just my 2 cents fwiw.

we could use this thread as a comment section for all the members who are interested.

I like this idea if Red does not get another one on his side.

But he would have to be told and explained to.... keeping this open for comments from the gallery is a good idea
no matter which way it goes.

 

[Peterlag]

He will undoubtedly insist that 1 John 5:7 is not a forgery, but 1 John 5:7 doesn't say that they are One God or a trinity. So it still lacks support for the trinity. However, it is a well known fact nowadays the 1 John 5:7 was a later addition to the Bible. Just go with the fact that it's not used by modern Bibles and the general consensus in the theological community is that it is not legit Scripture.

And concerning 1 John 5:7-8 where it has the words "In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" are words that are not found in any Greek Manuscript before the 15th or 16th century and in no ancient Version. - E. W. Bullinger., A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English andGreek New Testament: (London: Samuel Bagster & Sons, 1975), p. 11 of Appendix A.

 

[FreeInChrist]

And concerning 1 John 5:7-8 where it has the words "In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" are words that are not found in any Greek Manuscript before the 15th or 16th century and in no ancient Version. - E. W. Bullinger., A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English andGreek New Testament: (London: Samuel Bagster & Sons, 1975), p. 11 of Appendix A.

Before I go to the bother of copy and pasting a very long article.... @Peterlag..... read this.

Thus, we are left with the first evidence of the Comma in a Latin manuscript dating to some time prior to 385.
Metzger suggests someone interpreted the original 1 John 5.7-8 in a Trinitarian way and wrote the Comma in the margin as an explanatory note, which then was copied into the main body of 1 John by a later scribe.

the Comma referencing:
The Johannine Comma is a supposed interpolated phrase in verses 5:7–8 of the First Epistle of John. The text in the King James Version of the Bible reads: 7For there are three that beare record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.] 8[And there are three that beare witnesse in earth], the Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood, and these three agree in one

And there was some suggestion of Tertullian quoting it..... But not being a biblical figure he would not interest you.

I just thought you and all should see that 385 date because that is long before Jimmy had his men do his bible translations.

 

[Runningman]

Runningman, How old are you? Do you suffer from dementia?

How MANY TIMES do I have to say I am not debating. I am volunteer traffic control

And now you want older when you did say more modern........ sheeesh
Older then 1609 or 1611?

I know exactly what you mean..... one of these???

The best answer to what you are going to post which is about For there are three bearing testimony: IS THIS NOT SO?

…6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.…

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

I am also not debating, just informing you.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I am also not debating, just informing you.

K, Good to know...

At this point I am not sure anyone will be debating.

 

[Runningman]

And concerning 1 John 5:7-8 where it has the words "In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" are words that are not found in any Greek Manuscript before the 15th or 16th century and in no ancient Version. - E. W. Bullinger., A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English andGreek New Testament: (London: Samuel Bagster & Sons, 1975), p. 11 of Appendix A.

Yes indeed. I haven't seen anyone quote 1 John 5:7 except for novice debaters on the topic. It's possible some of them don't even know 1 John 5:7 is a fake. Often times, the reaction for the natural trinitarian in the wild, on finding out the Bible doesn't actually contain any statements about the trinity, is initially skepticism. I've seen very few of them cede the trinity is false after losing one point. Expect them to to attempt to yank your chain from one end of the Bible to the other, but remember... they still can't provide any statements about God being a trinity, three persons in one God, or any such similar statements in Scripture.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes indeed. I haven't seen anyone quote 1 John 5:7 except for novice debaters on the topic. It's possible sone of them don't even know 1 John 5:7 is a fake. Often times, the reaction for the natural trinitarian in the wild, on finding out the Bible doesn't actually contain any statements about the trinity, is initially skepticism. I've seen very few of them cede the trinity is false after losing one point. Expect them to to attempt to yank your chain from one end of the Bible to the other, but remember... they still can't provide any statements about God being a trinity, three persons in one God, or any such similar statements in Scripture.

Did you read what I posted to Peter in reply #174?

It is way to long to copy and paste, or I would have.

Does make me gleeful to be able to add another notch against the KJV, so cant really blame the folks as it is in quite a number
of translations... the latest being in 2020. Who would have thought you cannot trust the bible?

But why in the world did Jesus tell them to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

What was the purpose when they were already baptizing in His name, and seemingly continued while he was alive?

 

[Runningman]

K, Good to know...

At this point I am not sure anyone will be debating.

Peter and I agreed to debate, even though that debate was not organized by either of us. Are you saying that the challengers are backing out now?

 

[Selah]

K, Good to know...

At this point I am not sure anyone will be debating.

As long as this locked debate stays holy and reverent to the LORD, it could turn out okay. But already in this thread alone, I can see personal attacks, etc. Hey, let’s not make this debate a spectacle.

s e l a h