A request

[Red Baker]

@synergy

A good question to ask "sinful nature" believers is: if our common nature is sinful then what does that make Jesus who took on human nature?

Jesus was the second Adam, the Lord from heaven; he did not come through Adam's generation/posterity, God was his Father, he was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, not by Joseph etc.

He came in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemned sin in the flesh, and he did.

 

[Studyman]

I also do not believe that God created a "sin nature". That does not nullify the fact that "the Word was God" (John 1:1c) and that the Word <tabernacled> (ἐσκήνωσεν) as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14).

That is great Synergy, that you haven't adopted the whole "Sin Nature" Philosophy, even though it is very popular and promoted by most of this world's religious system.

I have never said that Jesus wasn't the Spiritual Rock that Israel ate and drank from. Nor have I said this same Spirit didn't come to earth as a mortal human in the person of Jesus.

The Philosophy that the Scriptures expose as false, is the teaching that Jesus overcame Sin and Temptations by reserving unto Himself God powers HE Himself withheld from all other humans, and overcame sin and Temptation "because" of these God powers. Not by Faith in God as HE requires from all other Humans, and as the Bible actually teaches. And then when HE overcame by powers He reserved unto Himself, He glorified Himself and gave Himself a Name above all other humans, who would have also overcame, had they possessed the Power Jesus withheld from them.

I have asked, why would these men work so hard to demean and discredit the Love, Trust and total Commitment to His God that Jesus Lived By. Why would they create "another Jesus", an immortal God who risked nothing for no one? Whose life was a Hollywood production, where Jesus faked His own death, even faked praying to His Father who could save Him from death, because He was God and God can't sin, can't be tempted and can't die.

Then I listened to His Spirit in Isaiah.

Is. 53: 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

And in the world God placed me in, this Jesus is rejected, and an image of God replaces Him. A handsome God with long flowing hair and blue eyes, who didn't overcome in this world by Faith, as the scriptures teach, but overcame because HE reserved for Himself God Powers HE withheld from all others. Then Glorified Himself over other humans who He required to Live by Faith.

I'm not going to join the "course of this world" in promoting this image of God.

 

[civic]

That's good to hear, but you're among a minority of Trinitarians who seem to actually agree with what I said. What denomination are you, if I may ask?

It’s actually a non denomination.

 

[civic]

@synergy

Jesus was the second Adam, the Lord from heaven; he did not come through Adam's generation/posterity, God was his Father, he was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, not by Joseph etc.

He came in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemned sin in the flesh, and he did.

So sin is passed from the males sperm ?

 

[FreeInChrist]

I'm not going to join the "course of this world" in promoting this image of God.

Thank you for that.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

So sin is passed from the males sperm ?

The seed of Adam that begat Seth, caused him to be in Adam's likeness after the fall, is indeed passed from Adam to every male and to their offspring. Likeness begets likeness.

Genesis 5:3​

“And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:”

Therefore, according to the flesh, Seth was born a sinner.

"in his own likeness, after his image"~ Seth was not begotten after God's image, that was stolen by the devil. Seth was not in the likeness, and after the image of God, in which Adam was created; for having sinned, he lost that image, and every man since have came short of that glory of God, and could not convey God's image to his posterity; you cannot convey something you do not posses. All men since the sin entered into the world ever have been conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity; are polluted and unclean, foolish and disobedient; averse to all that is good, and prone to all that is evil: Yes, the sinfulness of nature is conveyed by natural generation from the seed of a man.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

I have never said that Jesus wasn't the Spiritual Rock that Israel ate and drank from.

Jesus speaks of his humanity, Christ of his Deity, Jesus was NOT the rock Israel drink of, Christ/God was the Rock.

Jesus Christ was the Rock of Israel, in His divine nature as God( Deuteronomy 32:4,15, 18, 30,31; 1st Samuel 2:2; 2nd Samuel 23:3; Psalms 18:2,31,46).

Deuteronomy 32:4​

“He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.”

Nor have I said this same Spirit didn't come to earth as a mortal human in the person of Jesus.

Do you agree that the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God are the one and the same? Yes or no, if no explain yourself. The scriptures said that they are the same as in Genesis 1:1.

I'm not going to join the "course of this world" in promoting this image of God.

Nor will you promote that Jesus Christ is the express image of the invisible God, the only True God that man will ever stand before to be judged.

1st John 1:1-3~"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

There is only ONE God, yet manifest to us as three ONLY according to the work of redemption for God's elect.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@civic

The seed of Adam that begat Seth, caused him to be in Adam's likeness after the fall, is indeed passed from Adam to every male and to their offspring. Likeness begets likeness.

Genesis 5:3​

“And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:”

Therefore, according to the flesh, Seth was born a sinner.

"in his own likeness, after his image"~ Seth was not begotten after God's image, that was stolen by the devil. Seth was not in the likeness, and after the image of God, in which Adam was created; for having sinned, he lost that image, and every man since have came short of that glory of God, and could not convey God's image to his posterity; you cannot convey something you do not posses. All men since the sin entered into the world ever have been conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity; are polluted and unclean, foolish and disobedient; averse to all that is good, and prone to all that is evil: Yes, the sinfulness of nature is conveyed by natural generation from the seed of a man.

Lets be exacting in this for a moment....

It wasn't the seed of Adam. It was the seed of the women through Mary that became the seed of flesh of Jesus Christ.

1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

It is deeper than just "sperm" transfer.

There is much I want to say about this but I don't want to lose anyone on this. I'll say this....

From the very beginning of God's purpose in humanity before this world was ever formed, God had a plan to bring about the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. Arminians tend to think that God "made things up" as He went along in reaction to mankind. (I'm not a determinist in what I'm saying at all). They are wrong in accordance with the Sovereignty of God over His creation. There is no lack of culpability for God in this. However Calvinist tend to be worse in that they turn their own actions into the "Sovereign" purpose of God.

The weakness (not sin) of the flesh came to Jesus Christ through the seed of Mary. Both men and women have their own seed. It takes two seeds (both) to create a human being. A descendent of flesh. In the Incarnation, that isn't the exact same process. It is the sole seed of the women. This is exactly why Christ is referenced as the second Adam. Christ came for His bride.

 

[Runningman]

@Runninman

Actually it is "both". If you really ponder this in light of the word of God, then it is clearly seen as both. We all keep our children from being friends with certain people that we know would be a bad influence on them, knowing......

1st Corinthians 15:33​

“Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.”

Both (our children and children of the world) are born with Adam's sinful nature, but some parents teach their children good, holy manners from day one and labor to instill God's word and ways into the heart of our their children, grandchildren etc. beginning at the first sign of seeing any disobedience in them like crying to get their own way, we used certain means to get their attention.

Example: I had a close friend many years ago leaving their son Matthew with us while they went somewhere, forgot now since it has been over forty years or more. I said to them ~what should we do if he start crying knowing you are not here, they said all you have to do is say Matthew no, and put you fingers on his legs and he will stop, They would give him a little pinch when he cry to get his own way, and they very quickly got his attention with a small pinch to the legs, and it worked, no problem, he learned who to obey very quickly, he knew no meant stop. Matthew was around ten month or so. This young man turned out to be an outstanding young man. Do not tell me that it does not work because I know it does first hand. Pain is a language they learn very quickly. A little twist of the finger on the back part of their upper arm is a good tools to use to get their attention.

By doing so, we restrain sin that's in their old Adamic nature and may do so all their life to a certain degree with God's blessings, or, until they are born again, then the Spirit of God will be their restraining power keeping their conscience from being harden against His word.

Psalms 76:10​

“Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.”

Back to the topic.

At least you agree that you believe sin is like a contagious disease. There are a lot people who share your belief regarding that and, based on my experience, it's the dominant perspective of sin in the Trinitarian church. We Christians see it differently, though. @civic as you were saying?

 

[Red Baker]

@praise_yeshua

It wasn't the seed of Adam. It was the seed of the women through Mary that became the seed of flesh of Jesus Christ.

I was not addressing Christ being born of a woman, I know very well who caused that conception, and it was not through Adam's generation.

By the fact that God by-passed Adam's generation proves my point that I was making, base upon the question ask of me by @civic. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, he was conceived and born sinless by the fact being God's only begotten Son in the manner in which he was conceived. .

From the very beginning of God's purpose in humanity before this world was ever formed, God had a plan to bring about the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. Arminians tend to think that God "made things up" as He went along in reaction to mankind. (I'm not a determinist in what I'm saying at all). They are wrong in accordance with the Sovereignty of God over His creation. There is no lack of culpability for God in this. However Calvinist tend to be worse in that they turn their own actions into the "Sovereign" purpose of God.

The weakness (not sin) of the flesh came to Jesus Christ through the seed of Mary. Both men and women have their own seed. It takes two seeds (both) to create a human being. A descendent of flesh. In the Incarnation, that isn't the exact same process. It is the sole seed of the women. This is exactly why Christ is referenced as the second Adam. Christ came for His bride.

You said: "Both men and women have their own seed."
No pun intended but you are confused. Only the males have a seed, the female have eggs. Read Genesis 38, how in the world can a woman spill her seed on the ground, impossible. She has eggs~The woman's seed is that seed which God planted in Mary's womb, and THAT the seed came in the likeness OF sinful flesh.

Galatians 3:16​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

 

[Red Baker]

@Runningman

We Christians see it differently

Sir, if you reject Jesus' Deity then you are not a Christian based upon God's testimony. Correct teaching concerning who Jesus truly is, is absolutely imperative of being a child of God, or I should say, it is impossible to be a child of God and fat out reject Jesus being The I AM THAT I AM. I understand that one could have an imperfect understanding of Jesus' Sonship and still be a child of God, but one can not reject his Deity.

2nd John 1:9​

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua

I was not addressing Christ being born of a woman, I know very well who caused that conception, and it was not through Adam's generation.

By the fact that God by-passed Adam's generation proves my point that I was making, base upon the question ask of me by @civic. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, he was conceived and born sinless by the fact being God's only begotten Son in the manner in which he was conceived. .

I'm aware of this position. It leads to doctrines such as "magic blood" (my reference). Do you believe Jesus Christ has "special blood" in the context of being the very blood of God?

You said: "Both men and women have their own seed."
No pun intended but you are confused. Only the males have a seed, the female have eggs. Read Genesis 38, how in the world can a woman spill her seed on the ground, impossible. She has eggs~The woman's seed is that seed which God planted in Mary's womb, and THAT the seed came in the likeness OF sinful flesh.

Galatians 3:16​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

Abraham's promises required Sarah. Not the "handmaid". I hope you keep responding to my comments.

God speaks of "her seed"..... In Genesis 3.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

It speaks of "her seed" again in Rev 12:17

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

@Peterlag

Are you sure, real sure? You are wrong, badly wrong.

Titus 2:13​

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

Acts 20:28​

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”

This can only be so, if Christ was indeed as the scriptures gives testimony to, God manifest in the flesh. In the mouth of two or three witnesses is a saying establish as true! Paul and Luke both taught that Jesus was God in the likeness of human flesh, without sin, in order to condemned sin in the flesh and he did indeed, it shall once and for all be destroy. It is already a defeated enemy.

You first verse refers to God and the the Savior Jesus Christ. So I don't get your point.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua

I was not addressing Christ being born of a woman, I know very well who caused that conception, and it was not through Adam's generation.

By the fact that God by-passed Adam's generation proves my point that I was making, base upon the question ask of me by @civic. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, he was conceived and born sinless by the fact being God's only begotten Son in the manner in which he was conceived. .

You said: "Both men and women have their own seed."
No pun intended but you are confused. Only the males have a seed, the female have eggs. Read Genesis 38, how in the world can a woman spill her seed on the ground, impossible. She has eggs~The woman's seed is that seed which God planted in Mary's womb, and THAT the seed came in the likeness OF sinful flesh.

Galatians 3:16​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

Also,

If you take a "look" as the seed of the women, you notice that it looks like our planet.

 

[synergy]

@synergy

Jesus was the second Adam, the Lord from heaven; he did not come through Adam's generation/posterity, God was his Father, he was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, not by Joseph etc.

He came in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemned sin in the flesh, and he did.

You just created a new category of sin called "likeness of sin". You possess a lively imagination.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You first verse refers to God and the the Savior Jesus Christ. So I don't get your point.

Tit 2:13 προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου

 

[synergy]

That is great Synergy, that you haven't adopted the whole "Sin Nature" Philosophy, even though it is very popular and promoted by most of this world's religious system.

I have never said that Jesus wasn't the Spiritual Rock that Israel ate and drank from. Nor have I said this same Spirit didn't come to earth as a mortal human in the person of Jesus.

The Philosophy that the Scriptures expose as false, is the teaching that Jesus overcame Sin and Temptations by reserving unto Himself God powers HE Himself withheld from all other humans, and overcame sin and Temptation "because" of these God powers. Not by Faith in God as HE requires from all other Humans, and as the Bible actually teaches. And then when HE overcame by powers He reserved unto Himself, He glorified Himself and gave Himself a Name above all other humans, who would have also overcame, had they possessed the Power Jesus withheld from them.

I have asked, why would these men work so hard to demean and discredit the Love, Trust and total Commitment to His God that Jesus Lived By. Why would they create "another Jesus", an immortal God who risked nothing for no one? Whose life was a Hollywood production, where Jesus faked His own death, even faked praying to His Father who could save Him from death, because He was God and God can't sin, can't be tempted and can't die.

Then I listened to His Spirit in Isaiah.

Is. 53: 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

And in the world God placed me in, this Jesus is rejected, and an image of God replaces Him. A handsome God with long flowing hair and blue eyes, who didn't overcome in this world by Faith, as the scriptures teach, but overcame because HE reserved for Himself God Powers HE withheld from all others. Then Glorified Himself over other humans who He required to Live by Faith.

I'm not going to join the "course of this world" in promoting this image of God.

I also believe that Jesus is our Exemplar, not a "Superman" that reserves powers, needed by us for our salvation, only to himself. That still does not exempt anyone from believing that "the Word was God" who tabernacled as Jesus on Earth.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You first verse refers to God and the the Savior Jesus Christ. So I don't get your point.

The phrase in Titus 2:13, "τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ" (tou megalou Theou kai Soteros hemon Iesou Christou), translates to "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." The Granville Sharp rule in Greek grammar supports this interpretation: when two singular nouns (like "Θεοῦ" and "Σωτῆρος") are connected by "καὶ" (and) and share a single definite article (in this case, "τοῦ"), they typically refer to the same entity. Thus, the text identifies Jesus Christ as both "God" and "Savior."

You should learn the context of "definitive articles" in Greek....

 

[Red Baker]

@Administrator is this debate over? It seems it has turned into a open debate for all. Which if that's the case then I did not get to provide any offense in this debate, which I desired to do and wanted @Peterlag @Runningman @Keiw1 @Studyman to respond to.

Thanks for your consideration.

 

[Red Baker]

@praise_yeshua

If you take a "look" as the seed of the women, you notice that it looks like our planet.

You lost me.