A Challenge

Brakelite

Active member
I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.

1 Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?
 
Addressing the OP 101G answer in scripture as requested, Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

101G.
 
In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?
what was that price? Blood. two scriptures if you don't mind. #1. Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

and what is the "BLOOD" For? scripture, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

101G.
 
what was that price? Blood. two scriptures if you don't mind. #1. Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

and what is the "BLOOD" For? scripture, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

101G.
Thank you, and I agree. Can you tell me then why it is that those who don't take advantage of that sacrifice, and therefore must take upon themselves the price of redemption which is death and the shedding of blood, are told that they must burn for eternity in fire?
 
Greeting in the Lord Jesus name,
Thank you, and I agree. Can you tell me then why it is that those who don't take advantage of that sacrifice, and therefore must take upon themselves the price of redemption which is death and the shedding of blood, are told that they must burn for eternity in fire?
thanks for the reply, but 101G cannot read another man's HEART, or MIND..... yet.... (smile). now as to why? maybe, and only maybe, better persuading? based on this, 2 Corinthians 5:9 "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." 2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:11 "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."

if men KNEW THE TERROR of the Lord................

I hope this may help.

101G.
 
Thank you, and I agree. Can you tell me then why it is that those who don't take advantage of that sacrifice, and therefore must take upon themselves the price of redemption which is death and the shedding of blood, are told that they must burn for eternity in fire?

Because God's value is infinite, and so evil has no limit to its punishment.
 
Because God's value is infinite, and so evil has no limit to its punishment.
So it would seem, at least according to His own word, His inconsistent standards. Throughout scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, the wages, the fruit, the result, inevitable conclusion to sin, was death. The antidote, again throughout scripture from Genesis to Revelation, was the death of an innocent life. The inevitable result of that transaction, for all those who agreed to and met the conditions, was the gift of eternal life. For those who refuse, reject, do not believe or for their own selfish reasons do not meet the criteria laid out in scripture, was to take back upon themselves, the death once born by the Substitute. Throughout the scripture, this transaction was measured by God to be the only lawful, merciful and gracious, means by which man could be redeemed and saved. Life for life. Death for death. Forgiveness for the sinner, reward for the Saviour. Justification for the Creator and Giver of life, vindication for the plan of redemption and the purposes of God to rid the universe of sin permanently, and from every place where it infected God's handiwork. It is not in the heart of God, not did it ever enter into His mind, to give eternal life to sinners, and make sin and suffering immortal. Sin and sinners, as per scripture, was always destined for destruction. It isn't good to make stuff up in order to justify a miserable short sighted human construct on God's character, reducing His justice to a human level, His love conditional, and His power to expunge sin from the universe ineffectual.
 
I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.

1 Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?
No it is not paid. Jesus death opened the door to all to repent and turn around to get sin blotted out. Yet all die and pay their own wages of sin. Some will never die= The remaining little flock( Luke 12:32) who get changed in the twinkling of an eye during the tribulation and go to heaven, and the great crowd( Rev 7:9) of other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that fold get brought through Armageddon on earth and may never taste death.
Romans 6:7--One is acquitted of all sin at death)---- and cannot be rejudged for past sins after the resurrection occurs. They will be judged after satan is loosed for a little while and tests the faith of the resurrected ones. Some will fall.
 
I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.

1 Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?
Christ's death on the cross and His resurrection was full payment for the debt we owed

the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4.

But its full application still awaits a future day.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor. 15:53.

No doubt the Presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer is proof that we are saved, but not totally. In a sense we are only one-third saved, and that part being a newly created human spirit with which to communicate with God (Who is Spirit) and to process the source of spiritual phenomenon when it does occur.

When Jesus Christ returns, He's bringing something with Him: the completion of our salvation.
 
Christ's death on the cross and His resurrection was full payment for the debt we owed

the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4.

But its full application still awaits a future day.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor. 15:53.

No doubt the Presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer is proof that we are saved, but not totally. In a sense we are only one-third saved, and that part being a newly created human spirit with which to communicate with God (Who is Spirit) and to process the source of spiritual phenomenon when it does occur.

When Jesus Christ returns, He's bringing something with Him: the completion of our salvation.
the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4.
yes future redemption, but post cross, one still can sin, you said, "His resurrection was full payment for the debt we owed", but was that for PAST SINS BEFORE THE CROSS?. scripture, Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" as Ezekiel 18:4 clearly states...."sinneth", means continually. meaning future sins. which bring 101G to your next quote,
but not totally. In a sense we are only one-third saved, and that part being a newly created human spirit with which to communicate with God (Who is Spirit) and to process the source of spiritual phenomenon when it does occur.
if this is the case, why bring with him the "spirit" that was in the body before natural death? why CREATE a new spirit, when one already exists. did not David say, Psalms 51:10 "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." so, why CREATE a NEW spirit? why not, as said, "RE-NEW?" .... as with the Soul, do not all souls belong to God? Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." so why create a NEW spirit? well now that answers another ETERNAL QUESTION.... (Smile), ... but that's for another topic.

101G.
 
yes future redemption, but post cross, one still can sin, you said, "His resurrection was full payment for the debt we owed", but was that for PAST SINS BEFORE THE CROSS?. scripture, Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" as Ezekiel 18:4 clearly states...."sinneth", means continually. meaning future sins. which bring 101G to your next quote,
The finished work on the cross by Christ atoned for the sin of God's elect, covenant people past, present, and future.
if this is the case, why bring with him the "spirit" that was in the body before natural death? why CREATE a new spirit, when one already exists. did not David say, Psalms 51:10 "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." so, why CREATE a NEW spirit? why not, as said, "RE-NEW?" .... as with the Soul, do not all souls belong to God? Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." so why create a NEW spirit? well now that answers another ETERNAL QUESTION.... (Smile), ... but that's for another topic.

101G.
God created the man and woman trichotomy (body, soul, human spirit.)
When they both disobeyed God and ate from the tree they died "in the day" they ate of it, but it wasn't a physical or soulful death. Their human spirit died and the communication between God and this die-namic duo changed.
Christ, or Logos rules the spiritual realm and the one thing the man and woman could not pass to their children was a human spirit, so everyone born from them were born body and soul - no human spirit, and this continued all the way to the present and will continue till the day of Christ's return.

When a person is born-again God creates a new human spirit in and for the person which enables them to communicate with God who is Spirit (Eph. 4:24 and 2 Cor. 5:17.)
Everyone who isn't born again and dies are sent to "hell."

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28.

This is a person who is NOT born-again and remains body and soul and destined for :hell" and eternal separation from God.

The person who is born-again God creates a new human spirit in them which enable spiritual communication with God who is Spirit and allows the person to process the source of spiritual phenomenon. They are in effect restored to a trichotomy or three-part person and restored to the image of God:

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5:23.

There are no 'three-part' persons in "hell." Only "two-part" people: body and soul (Matt. 10:28.)
 
The finished work on the cross by Christ atoned for the sin of God's elect, covenant people past, present, and future.
The finished work on the cross by Christ atoned for the sin of God's elect, covenant people past, present, and future.
if that's the case then, why the INVITATION? Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
Their human spirit died and the communication between God and this die-namic duo changed.
scripture for that please, where the spirit died? book chapter and verse please.

101G.
 
if that's the case then, why the INVITATION? Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
FIRST, the words "whosoever shall call upon the Lord" doesn't mean anyone can call - like one would call a cab - on the Lord. Those words refer to worship and relationships already existing.
It is found in Genesis, and it speaks about a people that worship the Lord, a people in an existing relationship. To take it in the English as written is to misunderstand it's meaning. But in the original Hebrew in Genesis, it doesn't read that way.
scripture for that please, where the spirit died? book chapter and verse please.

101G.
Well, let's look at Scripture and reason.

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.

Well, he and the woman ate of kit and true to God's words he died.
Now, this is where we use our brains.

He didn't die physically because he lived 930 years.
He didn't die soul-fully for the soul is comprised of intellect and mind, emotions, senses, conscience, and will, and after he ate, he still had communication with God, had children, etc.
So, what's left of the 'make up' of man?
His human spirit.
His human spirit died fulfilling God's words that "in the day" ... thou shalt surely die.
How do you read it?
 
FIRST, the words "whosoever shall call upon the Lord" doesn't mean anyone can call - like one would call a cab - on the Lord. Those words refer to worship and relationships already existing.
ERROR, worship, nor relationships get's one saved. why one answer when they .... suppose to have answered already? so, that nonsense want fly, try again.
Well, let's look at Scripture and reason.

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.
the spirit didn't die, fellowship was broken. try again.
Well, he and the woman ate of kit and true to God's words he died.
Now, this is where we use our brains.
well nothing, a spiritless person? that's stupidity. now try again,
He didn't die physically because he lived 930 years.
correct, and is not death a separation? so, that want fly, so try again.
He didn't die soul-fully for the soul is comprised of intellect and mind, emotions, senses, conscience, and will, and after he ate, he still had communication with God, had children, etc.
So, what's left of the 'make up' of man?
His human spirit.
His human spirit died fulfilling God's words that "in the day" ... thou shalt surely die.
How do you read it?
that's idiotic ...... very idiotic. the scriptures clearly states, Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
WHAT YOU SAID? "He didn't die soul-fully", LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL, Oh my God How Ignorant can one be.

so man died 1/3 soul-fully? Oh wait 1/2 half, since the body is enact. ... lol, lol, ROF..... let's get out the holy jeopardy buzzer for this one .........buzz, for that IGNORANT ANSWER......... and another buzz, for a LACK KNOWLEDGE of the scriptures. and BUZZ. for the affiliation of the two before.

UNDERSTAND, to die or to be cut off is a. a separation, b. disinherit. "To disown, especially to disinherit from one's will". Listen and understand. DEAD MEN, BE YE SONS, OR CHILDRENS ...... CANNOT INHERIT. IN ORDER TO INHER, ONE HAS TO BE ALIVE. .... HELLO, ANYONE HOME?

Is this real...... or is 101G in a dream state?
101G.
 
FIRST, the words "whosoever shall call upon the Lord" doesn't mean anyone can call - like one would call a cab - on the Lord. Those words refer to worship and relationships already existing.
It is found in Genesis, and it speaks about a people that worship the Lord, a people in an existing relationship. To take it in the English as written is to misunderstand it's meaning. But in the original Hebrew in Genesis, it doesn't read that way.

Well, let's look at Scripture and reason.

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.

Well, he and the woman ate of kit and true to God's words he died.
Now, this is where we use our brains.

He didn't die physically because he lived 930 years.
He didn't die soul-fully for the soul is comprised of intellect and mind, emotions, senses, conscience, and will, and after he ate, he still had communication with God, had children, etc.
So, what's left of the 'make up' of man?
His human spirit.
His human spirit died fulfilling God's words that "in the day" ... thou shalt surely die.
How do you read it?
There is no ghost like being( spirit) within a mortal. The spirit that goes to God is his remembrance( dna kind of) that makes that individual who they were.
Adam did die spiritually that day, But 1000 years is as a day to God, and he did die physically within that time period.
 
After reading the barrage of confusion above, methinks you guys need to start actually believing your Bible, instead of using the Bible to support your preconceived ideas, because doing that unravels when you need to explain and harmonize scriptures such as...

KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV John 5:29
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV Revelation 20:7-14
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
You see, throughout the church age, until just recently, the hope of the Christian was the resurrection. The hope of eternal life was not in going to heaven at death, but in the reuniting of the decayed body in the grave, with the spirit once again creating a living soul. We all know this takes place at no other time than at the second coming. It makes no sense to believe that spirits are in heaven having a mind, a face, fingers and toes, arms and legs, a head to think with, a mouth to praise with, eyes to see with....all these things are still in the grave along with the rest of the body.


And scripture attests to this very thing. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun......

.....10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.


Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.


Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?


Psalms 88:10 ¶ Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?


Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.


Kings, prophets, and priests alike testified that in the grave, there is no life, not until the resurrection.


Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:




Why must the redeemed seek for immortality or eternal life if it came naturally? It is clear from many scriptures that eternal life is a gift granted by grace to the one who accepts Christ as his Savior. Never is it even hinted at anywhere that eternal life is granted to the sinner. The second death is that same death described above...no consiousness...no life....complete oblivion. That death, that oblivion, is the eternal punishment , the eternal death from which there is no resurrection, no hope of the reunion of spirit and body, complete and utter separation from the only source of life, the Living God.
 
No rest for the wicked.

If you think existing is "life," you have never suffered greatly where you wished you were dead.
We are basing our faith and belief in scripture, not on philosophy. Notwithstanding the truth in what you say as a metaphor for a sad, lonely, painful existence without joy or peace, but it is still life, so long there is a breath.
 
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