A Challenge

[360watt]

Matt 10:22 disagrees with your assessment of when ne actually gets saved.

(Mat 10:22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Surrounding context of this verse is about deliverance from persecution and trials during end times. This is not a verse about being given eternal life.

Surrounding context:

Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The purpose of the book of John is to show people they can have eternal life and it is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin and to be given eternal life. John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 8:40, 10:28

And before we go to 'faith without works is dead' in James 2. The surrounding context of that is people who already have faith and what they do with it. Abraham, Rahab.. etc.. used the faith they had for God to do His will. Not that if they didn't work.. they would lose eternal life.. not that they never had eternal life. THE faith... ie bible study, fellowship, sharing your faith etc.. daily faith.. is lifeless.. dead without works.

Not that they never had faith or lost eternal life! Look at the faith examples in James before taking the one verse on it's own.

 

[Keiw1]

Chuckle!!! More to it than that.

Yes obeying Every utterance from God. But Acts 3:19 is clear. Its repentance and turning around that gets sin blotted out. Even the apostles paid in full the wages of sin=death by themselves. That is judgement for sin= death, then at death one is acquitted of all past sin and cannot be rejudged on it in the resurrection.

 

[Keiw1]

(Mat 10:22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Surrounding context of this verse is about deliverance from persecution and trials during end times. This is not a verse about being given eternal life.

Surrounding context:

Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The purpose of the book of John is to show people they can have eternal life and it is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin and to be given eternal life. John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 8:40, 10:28

And before we go to 'faith without works is dead' in James 2. The surrounding context of that is people who already have faith and what they do with it. Abraham, Rahab.. etc.. used the faith they had for God to do His will. Not that if they didn't work.. they would lose eternal life.. not that they never had eternal life. THE faith... ie bible study, fellowship, sharing your faith etc.. daily faith.. is lifeless.. dead without works.

Not that they never had faith or lost eternal life! Look at the faith examples in James before taking the one verse on it's own.

One can be in a saved position, but MUST endure until their end to be saved--Endure living now to do Jesus' fathers will( Matt 7:21) over self in this satan ruled system.

 

[360watt]

One can be in a saved position, but MUST endure until their end to be saved--Endure living now to do Jesus' fathers will( Matt 7:21) over self in this satan ruled system.

That's working for your salvation and ignoring Jesus' sacrifice on your behalf to set you free from following laws to get saved

 

[Keiw1]

That's working for your salvation and ignoring Jesus' sacrifice on your behalf to set you free from following laws to get saved

The NT teaches-Law will be written on ones heart=the love of the new covenant. Its not working for salvation, its living to do Jesus' Fathers will--Jesus is clear at Matt 7:21--only those are entering his kingdom. Jesus' Fathers will is a protection from satan for all who live by it.

 

[360watt]

The NT teaches-Law will be written on ones heart=the love of the new covenant. Its not working for salvation, its living to do Jesus' Fathers will--Jesus is clear at Matt 7:21--only those are entering his kingdom. Jesus' Fathers will is a protection from satan for all who live by it.

Yes, so of course Jesus wants us to do His will after conversion, and it is through the New Testament system of service to Him. But good behaviour isn't what gets us to heaven.. Jesus gets us into heaven in spite of our failings.

The list of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God.. there are two possibilities.. those who never believed in the first place.. whose entire life is characterised by a type of sin.. which you wouldn't use usually to describe a believer.

Or in the case of inheritance.. this is not the same as entrance. Someone who gets geninuely converted may get pulled into living after the flesh. They will be disciplined and rebuked for this by the Holy Spirit. And it happens to us all at some stage with the battle of the Spirit vs the flesh in daily living. So.. those who carry on to faithfulness have greater INHERITANCE in the kingdom. Those who get stuck in sin.. experience the rebuke and discipline of the Holy Spirit.. but Jesus sacrifice on their behalf remains.. because they HAVE eternal life.

My own view is it is more on the lines of the later case than of people who never got converted. But either way.. it isn't about people who lose salvation. Either never believed in the first place.. or struggle with sin after conversion and miss out on rewards.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Yes obeying Every utterance from God. But Acts 3:19 is clear. Its repentance and turning around that gets sin blotted out.

Totally WRONG!!!! It's FAITH in the SIN OFFERING OF JESUS on the Cross that cleanses from SIN. our "Works" have nothing to do with it.

The exception is that, at Jesus' Judgement seat (which all Born again Christians will experience), we'll be REWARDED according to what we did, with what we were given,

Even the apostles paid in full the wages of sin=death by themselves. That is judgement for sin= death, then at death one is acquitted of all past sin and cannot be rejudged on it in the resurrection.

That's probably the MOST RIDICULOUS THING I've ever heard. Have you ever actually READ the Bible??

 

[Keiw1]

Yes, so of course Jesus wants us to do His will after conversion, and it is through the New Testament system of service to Him. But good behaviour isn't what gets us to heaven.. Jesus gets us into heaven in spite of our failings.

The list of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God.. there are two possibilities.. those who never believed in the first place.. whose entire life is characterised by a type of sin.. which you wouldn't use usually to describe a believer.

Or in the case of inheritance.. this is not the same as entrance. Someone who gets geninuely converted may get pulled into living after the flesh. They will be disciplined and rebuked for this by the Holy Spirit. And it happens to us all at some stage with the battle of the Spirit vs the flesh in daily living. So.. those who carry on to faithfulness have greater INHERITANCE in the kingdom. Those who get stuck in sin.. experience the rebuke and discipline of the Holy Spirit.. but Jesus sacrifice on their behalf remains.. because they HAVE eternal life.

My own view is it is more on the lines of the later case than of people who never got converted. But either way.. it isn't about people who lose salvation. Either never believed in the first place.. or struggle with sin after conversion and miss out on rewards.

Again you err. The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere in Gods bible. Only the little flock( Luke 12:32) are bought from the earth( Rev 14:3) They are numbered=144,000. The great crowd no man can number and have received this promise-Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:29--Only blind guides teach all go to heaven. 'Jesus was clear--FEW will find the road that leads off into life. Why? Because blind guides have many walking the broad and spacious path.

 

[Keiw1]

Totally WRONG!!!! It's FAITH in the SIN OFFERING OF JESUS on the Cross that cleanses from SIN. our "Works" have nothing to do with it.

The exception is that, at Jesus' Judgement seat (which all Born again Christians will experience), we'll be REWARDED according to what we did, with what we were given,

That's probably the MOST RIDICULOUS THING I've ever heard. Have you ever actually READ the Bible??

Are you calling God a liar? He inspired the words at Acts 3:19
These have faith in the sin offering-Matt 7:22-23, they believe as well, but will lose.

 

[360watt]

Again you err. The great crowd is not promised heaven anywhere in Gods bible. Only the little flock( Luke 12:32) are bought from the earth( Rev 14:3) They are numbered=144,000. The great crowd no man can number and have received this promise-Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:29--Only blind guides teach all go to heaven. 'Jesus was clear--FEW will find the road that leads off into life. Why? Because blind guides have many walking the broad and spacious path.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you have eternal life. The central message of pretty much the entire Bible. Foreshadowed in the OT, revealed in the NT.

 

[Keiw1]

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you have eternal life. The central message of pretty much the entire Bible. Foreshadowed in the OT, revealed in the NT.

Eternal life on a paradise earth=new earth. Only the little flock are promised heaven. They are the anointed bride--They will sit on thrones as kings and priests alongside of Jesus( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)-- At the Lords evening meal, Jesus made that special covenant to partake of those emblems to the ones who will sit on thrones, not to the great crowd( Luke 22:29-30)--Its a major sin for the great crowd to partake of those emblems. Blind guides tell all to partake.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Are you calling God a liar? He inspired the words at Acts 3:19
These have faith in the sin offering-Matt 7:22-23, they believe as well, but will lose.

Good bye-

 

[Keiw1]

Good bye-

So is Acts 3:19 a truth from God or not?

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, so of course Jesus wants us to do His will after conversion, and it is through the New Testament system of service to Him. But good behaviour isn't what gets us to heaven.. Jesus gets us into heaven in spite of our failings.

Jesus didn't come simply to get us into heaven. He came to deliver us from our sins. "He shall be called Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins".
It is in the freedom from sin that our entrance into glory, first in heaven then later the new earth, is made certain. It is through the redemption and forgiveness and cleansing of sin from the human heart that God's people are made fit for the company of God and angels. Nothing that defiles will be allowed there.

 

[360watt]

Jesus didn't come simply to get us into heaven. He came to deliver us from our sins. "He shall be called Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins".
It is in the freedom from sin that our entrance into glory, first in heaven then later the new earth, is made certain. It is through the redemption and forgiveness and cleansing of sin from the human heart that God's people are made fit for the company of God and angels. Nothing that defiles will be allowed there.

Right, so.. the spirit of a saved person NEVER sins. That is cleansed, purified, etc.. but the flesh of people, being imperfect.. does. That is why we have the admonishments in scripture to pursue the Spirit instead of the flesh. If we couldn't seek after the flesh, there would be no admonishments and warnings from Paul and others.

You can see in scripture in John when he says a believer 'does not sin'.. by context he is referring to the saved spirit inside a believer that has been indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Because he also says if a believer says he does not sin.. he is lying. There is no contradiction.. different contexts.

Flesh vs Spirit.. is the battle of every christian. If they follow after Jesus, they will have less flesh nature issues. If they get caught in the flesh.. they can expect discipline and rebuke from the Holy Spirit, may lose membership to their church (kicked out), may hurt others around them and God may end their life prematurely to stop them sinning. But since they are saved, it is unlikely they will continue with the flesh.. due to the Holy Spirit spurring them on.

BUT-- they have been justified. They have eternal life. Past tense. And ongoing forever. That is the message of the book of John and through tons of other scripture. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you are given eternal life.

 

[SteveB]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.

1 Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Tetelestai!

John 19:30.

Joh 19:30 WEB When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Joh 19:30 OGNT
ὅτε hote ote when
οὖν oun un therefore
ἔλαβεν elaben elaven to take
τὸ to to the
ὄξος oxos oksos vinegar
ὁ ho o the
Ἰησοῦς Iēsous iyiysus Jesus
εἶπεν eipen iypen to say·
Τετέλεσται Tetelestai teteleste to finish,
καὶ kai ke and
κλίνας klinas kliynas to bow
τὴν tēn tiyn the
κεφαλὴν kephalēn kefaliyn head
παρέδωκεν paredōken pareðoken to deliver
τὸ to to the
πνεῦμα pneuma pnevma spirit.¶

Perhaps among the most important points of the work of Jesus upon the cross.


That statement is akin to the final receipt upon a mortgage, or car loan.

Every single follower of Jesus has this receipt, applied to their account.

PAID IN FULL!

Tetelestai!

 

[Keiw1]

Tetelestai!

John 19:30.

Joh 19:30 WEB When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Joh 19:30 OGNT
ὅτε hote ote when
οὖν oun un therefore
ἔλαβεν elaben elaven to take
τὸ to to the
ὄξος oxos oksos vinegar
ὁ ho o the
Ἰησοῦς Iēsous iyiysus Jesus
εἶπεν eipen iypen to say·
Τετέλεσται Tetelestai teteleste to finish,
καὶ kai ke and
κλίνας klinas kliynas to bow
τὴν tēn tiyn the
κεφαλὴν kephalēn kefaliyn head
παρέδωκεν paredōken pareðoken to deliver
τὸ to to the
πνεῦμα pneuma pnevma spirit.¶

Perhaps among the most important points of the work of Jesus upon the cross.


That statement is akin to the final receipt upon a mortgage, or car loan.

Every single follower of Jesus has this receipt, applied to their account.

PAID IN FULL!

Tetelestai!

You are mistaken sir. Jesus sacrifice only apply's to those who repent and turn around( Acts 3:19)( Heb 10:26--No sacrifice left for any who practice a sin.) And Jesus is clear at Matt 7:21-23-- If one works iniquity( practices a sin), no matter what they think they've done for Jesus will hear these words as judgement--Get away from me you who work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you. Best believe Jesus.

 

[SteveB]

You are mistaken sir. Jesus sacrifice only apply's to those who repent and turn around( Acts 3:19)( Heb 10:26--No sacrifice left for any who practice a sin.) And Jesus is clear at Matt 7:21-23-- If one works iniquity( practices a sin), no matter what they think they've done for Jesus will hear these words as judgement--Get away from me you who work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you. Best believe Jesus.

If that's what you want to believe.

According to John 16:7-11, it seems like the sin not covered, is unbelief.

Joh 16:7-11 WEB 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I don’t go away, the Counselor won’t come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment; 9 about sin, because they don’t believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to my Father, and you won’t see me any more; 11 about judgment, because the prince of this world has been judged.


We even read in Revelation 21:8, unbelief is the second item not covered.

Rev 21:8 WEB But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Which then results in all other sins being returned to the unbelievers, and they're judged accordingly.

 

[Keiw1]

If that's what you want to believe.

According to John 16:7-11, it seems like the sin not covered, is unbelief.

Joh 16:7-11 WEB 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I don’t go away, the Counselor won’t come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment; 9 about sin, because they don’t believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to my Father, and you won’t see me any more; 11 about judgment, because the prince of this world has been judged.


We even read in Revelation 21:8, unbelief is the second item not covered.

Rev 21:8 WEB But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Which then results in all other sins being returned to the unbelievers, and they're judged accordingly.

I just showed you its what the bible teaches. There is a whole bible.

 

[SteveB]

I just showed you its what the bible teaches. There is a whole bible.

Yep. You did.
Are you telling me that unless I bow to your understanding and perspective, I'm going to hell?
What makes you think I was unaware that the Bible contains over 31,100 verses, 1189 chapters, 66 books- 39 in the old, and 27 in the new?
I've been reading it for the purpose of understanding, learning, awareness and obedience for the past 46 years.

So, what part of the bible do you think I'm not understanding?


Let me ask you the following.

In philippians 3, Paul states,

Phi 3: 15 Therefore as many as are mature should be of this mind. And if you are minded in anything differently, even this God will reveal to you. 16 Nevertheless, to that which we have attained, we are to walk by the same.


How do you think I should handle this?

He's pretty clear that if we're missing something important, God is quite capable of ensuring that we get it.

Do you think that I'm not seeing what's important in following Jesus?