So you think salvation is through faith in a human?
Your Views on The Trinity
- Thread starter Cyrus
- Start date
Peterlag
Active Member
What I want to know is why the folks want the trinity so bad...
Could it be possible that with it they have totally wiped out the Christ? So that for the trinitarian there is only God. And that would be a huge problem since the Scripture says nobody comes to God except through Jesus Christ. Your thoughts?
Could it be possible that with it they have totally wiped out the Christ? So that for the trinitarian there is only God. And that would be a huge problem since the Scripture says nobody comes to God except through Jesus Christ. Your thoughts?
amazing grace
Active Member
I was responding the John 5:18 verse as ----- Jesus was not making him equal with God - A Son is not equal to his Father in any scenario. To which you agreed. I was just commenting further the language used 'making him equal with God' being the same language used at John 10:33 - 'you a man make yourself God', also the same at John 19:7 'because he has made himself the Son of God'. The language is someone making them self out to be something they aren't . . . so the accusations in each case against Jesus were that he was a fake, a false Messiah, he's not who he says he is, he's lying. Yet Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah the King of the Jews - they just don't believe him. It makes perfect sense to me . . . I can't simplify it any further.
Yes, I understand what 'eisegesis' is . . . And you accuse me of reading into scripture something that's not there because I consider 'Mighty God' to be a theophoric name for the child?
The son will sit upon David's throne and rule - I don't believe God is a descendant of David but I do believe Jesus is a descendant of David.
I disagree. I believe God talked to his Son revealing things to him that he needed to know. Yes, he did do those things but he didn't have to be God to do it --- Peter tells how Jesus did what he did . . .
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know . . . [Acts 2:22]
Okay.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes sir. The New Covenant doesn't need a stone temple, repeated sacrifices, and a Levitical priesthood. Jesus replaced all of that. Why would someone need to be God to do what they were already doing amongst themselves? Christianity is actually just Judaism repackaged under a different covenant with better promises. This is why the Jews are staunchly monotheistic with their one person God called the Father. Actually, the presentation of Christianity that Trinitarians have provided them has been the reason why they reject the New Covenant. They aren't blind or deceived, they just know your Trinity is not what the Bible promises.
Runningman
Active Member
WWJD? I say to them believe in God and, in addition to that, believe in Jesus afterwards.
John 14
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well.
Do you mean that Jesus was wrong when He said what was written in John 14:6?
Or when the Father's testimony written by the author John that the eternal life is in His Son Jesus? (1John 5:11)
Do Jesus commit blasphemy when He said, "all the Father has are mine"? (John 16:15)
Runningman, can every human Christian say, "all the Father has are mine," without committing blasphemy?
Can you say that to yourself Runningman?
Yes, changes from copies to copies but the original words were maintained that we have these Old Testament Tanakh in Hebrew and Koine Greek New Testament manuscripts preserved. Except from those paraphrase Bible translations were the product of the translators thoughts not from the original languages.
Well then you must place a lot of faith in a human person; depending upon faith in a human person for salvation and worshipping him.
Phil 2:9–11For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Rev 5:12–14saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Heb 1:6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Matt 28:9And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.
Luke 24:52–53 (NASB 95) — 52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising God.
John 9:38 (NASB 95) — 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
Matt 14:33And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”
That would make the son equal to the father with the father and the son each indwelling one another.
@Peterlag
To which we will add: By confessing Jesus is God's only begotten Son in the manner in which he was begotten, proves that he's equal to God! Again, even his enemies understood this truth that you, @amazing grace @Runningman does not understand. Again:
John 5:18
“Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.”Okay, again, Jesus being the only begotten Son of God in the manner in which he was begotten, proves that in his deity he IS equal to God, if indeed he is the only begotten Son of God which he was. Jesus was a complex person, fully human through Mary, and fully God, by being the only begotten Son of the Eternal God which God gave conception to, by His Wisdom and power. The Word which was God joined Himself to teh tabernacles of his Son and lived in this world for around thrifty three plus years. The mystery of godliness is that Jesus was God, but God was not Jesus~God is a Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will! Which no angels or man will ever see, or even approach unto, only in the person of Jesus Christ will we see God, per Matthew 5:7
1st Timothy 6:16
“Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”Angels saw God for the first time when they saw Jesus!
1st Timothy 3:16
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”When was God seen of angels? When they saw Jesus!
As far as Jesus' humanity he was of the seed of David! Again, Jesus Christ was a "complex" person which you and your friends reject, and only desire to see one side of his glorious person, and keep him there, when if fact, there was another nature he possessed proven by many infallible proofs already mentioned above.
Colossians 1:15-17
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”Jesus did many acts taht no prophet of God could have ever done unless he was God manifest in the flesh.
John 2:19
“Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”What prophet could have said this:
John 3:13
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”You tell me how Jesus could say that he, (even though speaking to Nicodemus in person), ALSO was in heaven, how could this be so? Only in one sense is this so, if indeed he was God manifest in human flesh speaking to Nicodemus.
You folks need to reconsider your position on the Sonship of Jesus Christ, before it is too late to do so.
amazing grace
Active Member
HOW ---- does the manner in which he was begotten prove that he is equal to God? Because he was conceived by the power of the Most High? How does that make him equal to God or God himself?
The Jews were persecuting Jesus because he healed a man on the Sabbath and they accused Jesus of 'making himself equal to God' because Jesus said that God was his Father. How did Jesus respond?
Truly, Truly I say to you, the Son can do nothing on his own accord; but only what he sees the Father doing (19). . . I can do nothing on my own. (30) Jesus denied the accusation of 'making himself equal to God'. . . .
For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. (36b) . . .you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. (38)
I choose to believe Jesus.
amazing grace
Active Member
HOW does being conceived by the power of the Most High make Jesus fully God? God's creative power at work caused Mary to conceive. The mystery of godliness - Jesus was God but God was not Jesus ----- just when I thought I had heard all the contradictory statements!!!!!
Didn't God create the angels? Weren't they there in the beginning? 'Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements----surely you know! . . . when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy! (morning stars, sons of God = angels)
Where in this section are angels even mentioned?
Which is exactly why this verse is speaking of Jesus Christ. . . Earliest manuscripts read: 'And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: he who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.' What REASON would God have to be 'justified in the Spirit' - to render righteous, or such he ought to be; to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous ---- God IS just and righteous!!!
The thing is we don't reject the person of Jesus Christ . . .
Hmmm . . . Didn't Moses part the Red Sea? Didn't Moses bring 10 plagues against Egypt? Didn't David kill Goliath? Weren't these men that God worked through to accomplish what He needed to have accomplished? Just as God did mighty works and wonders and signs through him, Jesus.
We are also 'the image of the invisible God', all humanity was made in the image of God.
According to the context, what things did Jesus create? According to the context, how is he before all things?
We know that Jesus did not raise himself ---- there are entirely too many clear verses which read that God raised him from the dead and in verse 22 - when therefore he was raised . . . the verb is Aorist Passive indicative which means that the 'subject receives/received the action. Jesus was raised by God.
I will not attempt this verse because the originality of the last phrase is still being disputed.
Maybe you can tell me how Jesus being God on earth spoke from heaven - 'This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.'
I don't believe I need to reconsider anything . . God gave his Son, God is Jesus' Father and Jesus' Father is the only true God and Jesus Christ is the one whom God sent . . . the Lord's Christ.
@amazing grace
Jesus Christ and God are "one" in their divine nature, as the eternal God.
Moses was indeed a faithful over his house, but Christ much greater than Moses ever was or could be.
Concerning David, have you never read so much as this:
Let me explain this to you in this manner.
Hebrews 7:9
“And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.”John 1:18
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”Jesus Christ and God are "one" in their divine nature, as the eternal God.
John 10:30
“I and my Father are one.”Prove that it is an contradictory statement. You cannot do so~even with the help of your two friends.
But you do, if you reject his deity, as the God of Genesis 1:1, which all three of you do.
Moses could do nothing without God, period.
Exodus 14:21
“And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.”Exodus 14:31
“And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.”Moses was indeed a faithful over his house, but Christ much greater than Moses ever was or could be.
Hebrews 3:3
“For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.”Concerning David, have you never read so much as this:
Mark 12:36
“For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.”Mark 12:37
“David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.”Disputed by whom? Not by God's elect, we love it! No problem with Jesus on earth speaking from heaven as far as his deity goes~Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, yet God being a Spirit is not Jesus Christ, He is the Father of Jesus of Narareth. Without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness. Christians will only see ONE GOD and that God will be JESUS CHRIST.
amazing grace
Active Member
This man - Melchisedek - who does not have his descent from them (Levites) received tithes from Abraham - Abraham payed tithes to Melchisedek and Levi being a descendant of Abraham - being yet in the loins of his Father, figuratively also paid tithes through Abraham to Melshisedek. ---- And your point?
Yes, Jesus, the only begotten Son of God declared, made known God his Father. ---- and your point?
In the context of John 10:30 how were they ONE? Maybe in taking care of and keeping the sheep? ---- and your point?
I don't think I have anything to prove. Jesus is God - God is not Jesus. You need to prove the premise that you brought up isn't contradictory.
I don't see Jesus, the only begotten Son of God as the God of Genesis 1:1. God the Father is the God of Genesis 1:1.
Correct, Moses could do nothing without God; it was God working when Moses stretched forth his hand.
Jesus could do nothing without God his Father; it was God doing the mighty works and wonders and signs.
Yes, I have read the above. How is he the son and lord of David? . . . Jesus was the son of David - a descendant of David but in his exalted position to the right hand of God the Father he is now his Lord.
So we have God manifest in the flesh as Jesus yet we also have God a Spirit who is not Jesus Christ but the Father of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus is God - God is not Jesus - God is a Spirit. . . . okee dokee then. It seems you just went off on a tangent with no rhyme or reason . . . Maybe my fellow Unitarians can make more sense of this than I did. Thanks for including me in the conversation.
Christians do only see one God who is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Last edited:
Peterlag
Active Member
It's not me, @amazing grace @Runningman that does not understand. It appears to be you...
Saying you are the son of God does not make you God. It does put you in the same family to whatever the Father has. If you're a king then the son would be a prince and therefore share in the kingdom on equal ground pertaining to the kingdom. If your dad is a business owner then it would put you on equal ground in the family business to share in the wealth and even run the business later on. The Jews understood that custom and even we do today in our country.
Peterlag
Active Member
Saying you are the son of God does not make you God.
Peterlag
Active Member
The only places where the original words were maintained can only be where those words fit with the rest of the scope and context of the whole Bible. What you are posting concerning "the only begotten God" does not fit with any of the rest of the Bible. Therefore, those words are not even close to being original.
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus was given his way, truth, and life by the Father and the same applies to others. So anyone who got their way, truth, and life from the Father is the "way, truth, and life" in the absolute sense because there are a lot of people who have the same things as Jesus. You're misunderstanding the context.
Similar threads
