Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.

[Red Baker]

@civic

Calvinist like yourself do not understand Jesus teaching on the new birth in John 3. Like you said by projecting on @TomL you are the one having selective reading disease.

I'm coming to the new thread you started this afternoon, I'm leaving be back this afternoon. I want you to come there and debate me on John 3:1-8, just you and me. I'll go first later today.

We shll see who know what concerning the being born again by the Spirit of God~you believe you are co-partner with God in teh new birth, I know otherwise.

 

[civic]

Lydia was the opposite order.
God opened her heart to believe so that she could hear.
Jesus said that the new birth precedes “seeing” the Kingdom.

I will believe the scripture over your inversion of the order.

Lydia was already a worshiper of God, nice try.

 

[civic]

@civic

I'm coming to the new thread you started this afternoon, I'm leaving be back this afternoon. I want you to come there and debate me on John 3:1-8, just you and me. I'll go first later today.

We shll see who know what concerning the being born again by the Spirit of God~you believe you are co-partner with God in teh new birth, I know otherwise.

more strawman arguments lol.

I'm not co anything regarding eternal life, salvation , new birth etc.... All done by God alone,.

God saves the person who believes the gospel. Gods means of grace granted to all- the gospel message.

next fallacy

 

[atpollard]

Lydia was already a worshiper of God, nice try.

So was Simon when Jesus called him … were they all saved before meeting Jesus?

(Actually, the Pharisees were worshippers of God, too.)

 

[civic]

So was Simon when Jesus called him … were they all saved before meeting Jesus?

no belief in God preceded their salvation.

 

[civic]

the book of Acts is a stumbling block for many such as the charismatics and now what we see going on here. The order is for a purpose in Acts. Its not a doctrinal absolute. The "exceptions" are never the rules.

next fallcy

 

[civic]

Lydia was also a worshiper of God (Acts 16:14), and, when Paul found her, she was honoring the Sabbath, which means she was likely a Jew. The account of Lydia’s conversion says that she was gathered with a group of other women on the Sabbath at a place of prayer near the river outside of Philippi.got?

The story of Lydia in the Bible is a great example of God’s providence and His care for believers. Lydia was a worshiper of God but, like Cornelius in Acts 10, had not yet heard the gospel. God rerouted Paul and friends and also ensured that Lydia would be in the right place at the right time to encounter Paul and hear the good news of Jesus. And, as Lydia heard the gospel, God opened her heart so that she received the life-giving message.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

@civic

I've been following this discussion between Mr. Tom and @praise_yeshua ~ I have read the last four pages or so, I think I need to even go back even farther since I still cannot get @praise_yeshua true position, I think I know, but to be sure 100% I need to go back more and read to make sure.

Let me know when you would like to discuss. I just ask that you not repeat yourself as if I don't understand the words you're posting. If I don't understand you, I will ask to clarify. Please do the same.

I'll start once more by insisting the "spiritual death" requires spiritual life to have existed. Life must end before "death" can be realized. We are surrounded by death. Things die around us every day. Statistics say that over 150,000 people die every day. However, life that exists on earth is more than just "humanity". This world we live in is but "dust and ashes".

Just think of all the dust/dirt on this planet that has come from things dying. "Abiding in death" is not the absence of life entirely.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

In this context, those that hate their brothers in Adam/humanity still abide in death.

Now. I think we can agree that there is a "living death" that exists. However, that state is not certain as physical death is required to have taken place before judgment is executed. Also, Physical Death actually frees. In the case of Christ, that is exact what freed us (saints) from our own destiny with death.

In response to Scriptures that clear talk of "death" while yet "living", "death" is a disposition. Disposition is an inherent quality of the state of mind and character of our physical condition. We are more than just dust. More than just flesh. However, what we are "more of"... is irrevocably combined with dust/ashes to form our physical natural life. Which is what Adam was before he sinned. It is what we are still today.

Adam did not possess Eternal Life before he sinned. There are many reasons why I say this but I'm not going to share at the moment because I want to make sure you understand me to this point. Please confirm.

Thanks

 

[FreeInChrist]

Personally, I am not a huge fan of terms like “new birth” since people tend to be sloppy in how they define these terms (meaning different things to different people and varying from application to application). However, we can learn from what GOD meant when the term (“born again”) is used in scripture:

• John 3:3 [ESV] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
  • “Born again is essential to being able to see “the kingdom of God” (whatever one decides that Kingdom is, exactly).
  • Without “born again”, a person cannot “see” (Jesus said it, not me).
• 1 Peter 1:3 [ESV] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
  • GOD is the one who “has caused us to be born again” … so ‘born again’ is something God does (causes) and not something that we do.

Notice the Ordo Salutis of events in the Biblical example of Lydia:

• Acts 16:14 [ESV] One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
  • The LORD opened her heart
  • Lydia paid attention (was able to ‘see’ as John 3 would say)
  • Lydia accepted the GOSPEL that she heard from Paul.

GOD made the first move and THEN Lydia was able to listen and believe.

But she had a choice.

 

[TomL]

@TomL

Tom, my friend, you have select reading disease. You can do better than that. Listen to our Lord:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

And I agree with that

One, however, is born again by believing in Christ.

When one believes in Christ, they receive the Holy Spirit and are born again - made sons of God

James 1:18 (LEB) — 18 By his will he gave birth to us through the message of truth, so that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

John 1:12–13 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of God.

Galatians 3:26–27 (LEB) — 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Regarding John 3

Nicodemus had a question, and Christ had an answer

John 3:9–18 (LEB) — 9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we testify about what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony! 12 If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.” 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

 

[civic]

And I agree with that

One, however, is born again by believing in Christ.

When one believes in Christ, they receive the Holy Spirit and are born again - made sons of God

James 1:18 (LEB) — 18 By his will he gave birth to us through the message of truth, so that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

John 1:12–13 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of God.

Galatians 3:26–27 (LEB) — 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Regarding John 3

Nicodemus had a question, and Christ had an answer

John 3:9–18 (LEB) — 9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we testify about what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony! 12 If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.” 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

crazy how they deny Gods clear word about the new birth and faith which precedes being born again, eternal life, salvation.

 

[TomL]

Lydia was the opposite order.
God opened her heart to believe so that she could hear.
Jesus said that the new birth precedes “seeing” the Kingdom.

I will believe the scripture over your inversion of the order.

Calvinist like yourself do not understand Jesus teaching on the new birth in John 3. Like you said by projecting on @TomL you are the one having selective reading disease.

John 3 the context, Jesus teaching and His argument used with Nicodemus. Jesus main focus is on the Atonement. Jesus is dealing with the sin issue.

This is the cultural context in which this dialogue between a leading Jew and Jesus takes place. Jesus is correcting two fundamental misconceptions of the Jewish understanding of salvation. They will not inherit the Kingdom of God unconditionally. They must be changed. They must be reborn. This change does not take place corporately but individually, “No one [individual] can see” or “enter” the Kingdom of God without first being reborn. The Kingdom of God is not unconditionally guaranteed to them. They cannot enter the Kingdom until their sin has been dealt with, for the Kingdom of God is a holy Kingdom. There is need for real atonement before one can enter into the life of God’s Kingdom. Since sin brings death “you must be born again”. How does this happen? Nicodemus asks Jesus this same question in verse 9, “how can this be?”

Jesus quickly directs Nicodemus to the necessity of atonement. He says in verses 14 and 15, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” So how does one attain the new life necessary for seeing and entering the Kingdom of God? He must look to the lifted up Messiah and believe in him. While Calvinists lay great stress on the analogy of spiritual birth with physical birth, they virtually ignore the implications involved with the analogy of the bronze serpent that Jesus specifically used to answer Nicodemus’ question of how one becomes born again (vs. 9).

Indeed Jesus answered Nicodemus, telling him how that thing can exist.

John 3:9–17 (LEB) — 9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we testify about what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony! 12 If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.” 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.

 

[civic]

Indeed Jesus answered Nicodemus, telling him how that thing can exist.

John 3:9–17 (LEB) — 9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we testify about what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony! 12 If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.” 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.

Moses gave the Israelites the freedom to look upon the serpent and be healed or turn away and be killed.

That was up to them- not Moses or God.

Both Moses and God made provision.

 

[TomL]

Lydia was the opposite order.
God opened her heart to believe so that she could hear.
Jesus said that the new birth precedes “seeing” the Kingdom.

I will believe the scripture over your inversion of the order.

This is scripture

Acts 16:11–14 (LEB) — 11 So putting out to sea from Troas, we sailed a straight course to Samothrace, and on the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of that district of Macedonia, a Roman colony. And we were staying in this city for some days. 13 And on the day of the Sabbath, we went outside the city gate beside the river, where we thought there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women assembled there. 14 And a certain woman named Lydia from the city of Thyatira, a merchant dealing in purple cloth who showed reverence for God, was listening. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was being said by Paul.

This woman was listening and showing reverence for God. Calvinist theology will hold that is not possible

The Lord opened her heart to pay attention.

Nothing is stated of God irresistibly installing faith in her

 

[TomL]

crazy how they deny Gods clear word about the new birth and faith which precedes being born again, eternal life, salvation.

Scripture clearly shows that to be the truth.

 

[civic]

Scripture clearly shows that to be the truth.

Yes indeed brother it does

 

[TomL]

@TomL

Never! What he did grieved over was that in his most holy moments of seeking to do God's will, sin was present, which grieved his righteous soul, and finally cause him to confess that in his flesh dwelleth no good thing, but wicked sins, and he was looking forward to the day that he would be free from the body of sin and death that he lived with daily! And so do I and I'm sure you do as well.

So Paul was exaggerating when he stated sold into slavery to sin and that he does only what he hates?

.
Romans 7:13–25 (LEB) — 13 Therefore, did that which is good become death to me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be recognized as sin, producing death through what is good for me, in order that sin might become sinful to an extraordinary degree through the commandment. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into slavery to sin. 15 For what I am doing I do not understand, because what I want to do, this I do not practice, but what I hate, this I do. 16 But if what I do not want to do, this I do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me. 18 For I know that good does not live in me, that is, in my flesh. For the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want to do, I do not do, but the evil that I do not want to do, this I do. 20 But if what I do not want to do, this I am doing, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me. 21 Consequently, I find the principle with me, the one who wants to do good, that evil is present with me. 22 For I joyfully agree with the law of God in my inner person, 23 but I observe another law in my members, at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that exists in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh I am enslaved to the law of sin.

So did Spirit-installed Paul remain enslaved to sin after his salvation?

BTW

1 John 3:9 (LEB) — 9 Everyone who is fathered by God does not practice sin, because his seed resides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God.

 

[FreeInChrist]

there is no truth in that link. its filled with error.

1. However, we are hyper-Calvinists regarding salvation, for we teach regeneration before faith, a different purpose for faith and the gospel, and the definite possibility of God’s elect backsliding into sin and having their faith overthrown (but not losing eternal life).

Man this makes me want to run for the hills. What hogwash.
If this is a true statement "

• However, we are hyper-Calvinists regarding salvation, for we teach regeneration before faith

How is it that these people truly are not basic clones of each other? The have no will, they have no choice, IMO they have no life just putting in time until they are out of here.

• a different purpose for faith

What kind of different purpose? Hebrews 11:6 from the King James Version (KJV), which states, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
I guess the different purpose would be that since God chose "them" and "elected" them and at some point were regenerated before faith... faith is not the same for them as it is for me. Sheeeesh.

• a different purpose the gospel,

Well, I actually am at a loss on this one.... gospel means good news.... so they have a different purpose for the good news?

Then American Heritage Dictionary says

gospel /gŏs′pəl/

noun​

1. The proclamation of the redemption preached by Jesus and the Apostles, which is the central content of Christian revelation.

Which of course is Redemption taught by Jesus of the idea that through his death and resurrection, he paid the price for humanity's sins, offering forgiveness and reconciliation with God. This concept emphasizes that salvation is achieved not through human efforts but through faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrificial love.

So yep, I see why they are at odds on this.

MY favorite though is

• a different purpose the gospel, the definite possibility of God’s elect backsliding into sin and having their faith overthrown (but not losing eternal life).

NO COMMENT

The above is a different faith, a different gospel than Jesus and the Apostles taught.


And the section on " TRUTH " is filled with many errors and false accusations.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Lydia was the opposite order.
God opened her heart to believe so that she could hear.

But shew STILL could make a choice.

Jesus said that the new birth precedes “seeing” the Kingdom.

I would hope so. If one is seeing the kingdom one is dead and too late to be born again.

I will believe the scripture over your inversion of the order.

 

[TomL]

@civic

1) I know 100% that the new birth is a birth by God alone, without means, such as a preacher, the word of God, etc. Man is dead in tresspasses and sin and the same power (Ephesians 1:19,20) that brought again our Lord from the dead is the "same power that must" resurrect the sinner from being dead in sins to life in Jesus Christ.

Scripture indicates Faith comes before the reception of the Spirit

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Gal. 3:2 —KJV

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

Gal. 3:5 —KJV

“He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

Galatians 3:14 (KJV 1900)

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

The word is an important element.

1 Peter 1:23 (LEB) — 23 because you have been born again, not from perishable seed but imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.