Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.

So is it kind to tell me that I'm not answering when I have?
How about when I honestly believe that you have not.


So is it kind to repeat yourself over and over again without clearly defining what you're presenting? While telling others meaningful aspects of "life" is irrelevant?

Then still insist I'm wrong? How about a "false witness"?
How about someone who actually thinks that true

and finds the point being addressed clearly defined.

Thinking a person is wrong is never automatically dishonest.

You are expressing erroneous thoughts.
 
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@TomL
It seems the mind can be directed toward God.
The mind of the new man, yes, not the old man, for that's impossible. We have already provided scriptures proving that to be so.

You quoted:
Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.
Tom, this is so, but only true of those born of God, that's how we renew our new man daily by reading, hearing the word of God, by doing so, we increase in faith and knowledge of the truth. Our old man actually resist reading, studying, praying etc., but we know that our new man desire and needs to do these spiritual acts in order to stay strong against the wiles of the devil.
 
@TomL

The mind of the new man, yes, not the old man, for that's impossible. We have already provided scriptures proving that to be so.

You quoted:

Tom, this is so, but only true of those born of God, that's how we renew our new man daily by reading, hearing the word of God, by doing so, we increase in faith and knowledge of the truth. Our old man actually resist reading, studying, praying etc., but we know that our new man desire and needs to do these spiritual acts in order to stay strong against the wiles of the devil.
nope the new birth comes after hearing and believing the gospel.

so we see the new birth is a result of hearing and believing the preaching of the word of God. the gospel message.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 1:21-24

Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

1 John 5:1
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. Whoever loves the Father also loves the child who is born of him.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Ephesians 5:26
to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Ephesians 1:13-14
And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, / who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.


1 Corinthians 4:15
Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.

Colossians 1:5-6
the faith and love proceeding from the hope stored up for you in heaven, of which you have already heard in the word of truth, the gospel / that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God.

hope this helps !!!
 
@TomL

The mind of the new man, yes, not the old man, for that's impossible. We have already provided scriptures proving that to be so.

You quoted:

Tom, this is so, but only true of those born of God, that's how we renew our new man daily by reading, hearing the word of God, by doing so, we increase in faith and knowledge of the truth. Our old man actually resist reading, studying, praying etc., but we know that our new man desire and needs to do these spiritual acts in order to stay strong against the wiles of the devil.
Well lets see

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring,

Romans 10:5–8 (LEB) — 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does this will live by it.” 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim),


Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Man, according to scripture, can believe

That he cannot, we do not read.

And of Paul we read

Romans 7:13–25 (LEB) — 13 Therefore, did that which is good become death to me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be recognized as sin, producing death through what is good for me, in order that sin might become sinful to an extraordinary degree through the commandment. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into slavery to sin. 15 For what I am doing I do not understand, because what I want to do, this I do not practice, but what I hate, this I do. 16 But if what I do not want to do, this I do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me. 18 For I know that good does not live in me, that is, in my flesh. For the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want to do, I do not do, but the evil that I do not want to do, this I do. 20 But if what I do not want to do, this I am doing, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me. 21 Consequently, I find the principle with me, the one who wants to do good, that evil is present with me. 22 For I joyfully agree with the law of God in my inner person, 23 but I observe another law in my members, at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that exists in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh I am enslaved to the law of sin.

So did Paul remain enslaved to sin after his salvation?
 
@civic
1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 1:21-24

Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.
I've been following this discussion between Mr. Tom and @praise_yeshua ~ I have read the last four pages or so, I think I need to even go back even farther since I still cannot get @praise_yeshua true position, I think I know, but to be sure 100% I need to go back more and read to make sure. I'll do this later...now concerning the scripture you quoted, Mr. civic, you are not understanding the true sense of it, please consider what follows then you can comment later, if you desire to do so.
We as believers in God's word understand, how we must study in order to rightly divide the word of truth, or else, we may end up using scriptures against their God given sense, and thereby end up teaching error, which I do not think many here would purposely do, yet it does happen all the time even with good people, whose spirit is good, yet their understanding is not according to the truth.

Consider with me my understanding of 1st Peter 1:23-25 a little different than most, yet the only sense I know to give these scriptures and allow them to still have a perfect flow of the truth on the teaching of the new birth. \

1) I know 100% that the new birth is a birth by God alone, without means, such as a preacher, the word of God, etc. Man is dead in tresspasses and sin and the same power (Ephesians 1:19,20) that brought again our Lord from the dead is the "same power that must" resurrect the sinner from being dead in sins to life in Jesus Christ.

2) To make this as quick as possible, I'll give my sense on these scriptures. Consider<

1st Corinthians 2:1​

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.”

When Paul went into a city he declared the testimony of God concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ. When he did so, in that message that he preached/declared how a sinner was made the righteousness of God through the redemption work of Christ. Let me me add another scripture:
The gospel, the word of God, is God's testimony, His witness of HOW A PERSON IS BORN AGAIN, it is "NOT" the means of thereof, but it gives to us God's very own testimony of how we are born again, and that is the true sense of 1st Peter 1:23-25! To teach that the gospel is the means thereof, is to go against so many other scriptures, but it is indeed the testimony, the witness from heaven concerning how one is born again!

God could have chosen many different ways to communicate his truths to us, but he has chosen the written word of God to do so.
 
@civic

I've been following this discussion between Mr. Tom and @praise_yeshua ~ I have read the last four pages or so, I think I need to even go back even farther since I still cannot get @praise_yeshua true position, I think I know, but to be sure 100% I need to go back more and read to make sure. I'll do this later...now concerning the scripture you quoted, Mr. civic, you ar enot understanding the true sense of it, please consider what follows then you can comment later, if you desire to do so.

We as believers in God's word understand, how we must study in order to rightly divide the word of truth, or else, we may end up using scriptures against their God given sense, and thereby end up teaching error, which I do not think many here would purposely do, yet it does happen all the time even with good people, whose spirit is good, yet their understanding is not according to the truth.

Consider with me my understanding of 1st Peter 1:23-25 a little different than most, yet the only sense I know to give these scriptures and allow them to still have a perfect flow of the truth on the teaching of the new birth. \

1) I know 100% that the new birth is a birth by God alone, without means, such as a preacher, the word of God, etc. Man is dead in tresspasses and sin and the same power (Ephesians 1:19,20) that brought again our Lord from the dead is the "same power that must" resurrect the sinner from being dead in sins to life in Jesus Christ.

2) To make this as quick as possible, I'll give my sense on these scriptures. Consider<

1st Corinthians 2:1​

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.”

When Paul went into a city he declared the testimony of God concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ. When he did so, in that message that he preached/declared how a sinner was made the righteousness of God through the redemption work of Christ. Let me me add another scripture:

The gospel, the word of God, is God's testimony, His witness of HOW A PERSON IS BORN AGAIN, it is "NOT" the means of thereof, but it gives to us God's very own testimony of how we are born again, and that is the true sense of 1st Peter 1:23-25! To teach that the gospel is the means thereof, is to go against so many other scriptures, but it is indeed the testimony, the witness from heaven concerning how one is born again!

God could have chosen many different ways to communicate his truths to us, but he has chosen the written word of God to do so.
Wrong I have provided a dozen verses declaring salvation/the new birth, born again, eternal life comes after the hearing/believing of the gospel.

Its irrefutable.

I tagged you in this new thread in the Calvinism forum

 
@TomL
That he cannot, we do not read.
Tom, my friend, you have select reading disease. You can do better than that. Listen to our Lord:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Tom, you are an old soldier of the cross, you should know why our Lord used double verily ~ he did so, knowing very well, that what he was about to say, few would truly believe it, and even less teach the same. Tom, the Lord Jesus taught that except a man be born again he could not see the kingdom of God, or, spiritual truths connected to God's kingdom and taught therein. There's others that we have already given and more if need to. But, our Lord's own teaching should make you consider your error and rethink your position.
Romans 7:13–25 (LEB) — 13 Therefore, did that which is good become death to me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be recognized as sin, producing death through what is good for me, in order that sin might become sinful to an extraordinary degree through the commandment. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into slavery to sin. 15 For what I am doing I do not understand, because what I want to do, this I do not practice, but what I hate, this I do. 16 But if what I do not want to do, this I do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me. 18 For I know that good does not live in me, that is, in my flesh. For the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want to do, I do not do, but the evil that I do not want to do, this I do. 20 But if what I do not want to do, this I am doing, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me. 21 Consequently, I find the principle with me, the one who wants to do good, that evil is present with me. 22 For I joyfully agree with the law of God in my inner person, 23 but I observe another law in my members, at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that exists in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh I am enslaved to the law of sin.

So did Paul remain enslaved to sin after his salvation?
Never! What he did grieved over was that in his most holy moments of seeking to do God's will, sin was present, which grieved his righteous soul, and finally cause him to confess that in his flesh dwelleth no good thing, but wicked sins, and he was looking forward to the day that he would be free from the body of sin and death that he lived with daily! And so do I and I'm sure you do as well.
 
@TomL

Tom, my friend, you have select reading disease. You can do better than that. Listen to our Lord:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Tom, you are an old soldier of the cross, you should know why our Lord used double verily ~ he did so, knowing very well, that what he was about to say, few would truly believe it, and even less teach the same. Tom, the Lord Jesus taught that except a man be born again he could not see the kingdom of God, or, spiritual truths connected to God's kingdom and taught therein. There's others that we have already given and more if need to. But, our Lord's own teaching should make you consider your error and rethink your position.

Never! What he did grieved over was that in his most holy moments of seeking to do God's will, sin was present, which grieved his righteous soul, and finally cause him to confess that in his flesh dwelleth no good thing, but wicked sins, and he was looking forward to the day that he would be free from the body of sin and death that he lived with daily! And so do I and I'm sure you do as well.
Calvinist like yourself do not understand Jesus teaching on the new birth in John 3. Like you said by projecting on @TomL you are the one having selective reading disease.

John 3 the context, Jesus teaching and His argument used with Nicodemus. Jesus main focus is on the Atonement. Jesus is dealing with the sin issue.

This is the cultural context in which this dialogue between a leading Jew and Jesus takes place. Jesus is correcting two fundamental misconceptions of the Jewish understanding of salvation. They will not inherit the Kingdom of God unconditionally. They must be changed. They must be reborn. This change does not take place corporately but individually, “No one [individual] can see” or “enter” the Kingdom of God without first being reborn. The Kingdom of God is not unconditionally guaranteed to them. They cannot enter the Kingdom until their sin has been dealt with, for the Kingdom of God is a holy Kingdom. There is need for real atonement before one can enter into the life of God’s Kingdom. Since sin brings death “you must be born again”. How does this happen? Nicodemus asks Jesus this same question in verse 9, “how can this be?”

Jesus quickly directs Nicodemus to the necessity of atonement. He says in verses 14 and 15, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” So how does one attain the new life necessary for seeing and entering the Kingdom of God? He must look to the lifted up Messiah and believe in him. While Calvinists lay great stress on the analogy of spiritual birth with physical birth, they virtually ignore the implications involved with the analogy of the bronze serpent that Jesus specifically used to answer Nicodemus’ question of how one becomes born again (vs. 9).

The Israelites in the desert were dying from the deadly venom of snake bites. The only way they could escape certain death was to look to the bronze serpent that God had provided for their healing. Those Israelites were dying until they fixed their gaze on the bronze snake. Jesus correlates this “looking” to the snake with “believing”. When someone believes in Christ the blood of atonement is applied, the curse of sin and death is broken, and new life begins. If the Calvinistic interpretation of John3:3, 6 is correct then Jesus chose a poor analogy to explain to Nicodemus how the new life begins. If their view is correct then we must also believe that the Israelites in the desert were not given life as a result of fixing their gaze on the bronze serpent, but were rather first given life so that they could then look to [or “see”] the serpent. In this view they looked to the serpent because they had already been cured of the venom’s deadly effects. They would not have looked to the serpent to secure life; they would have looked to the serpent because they had already been given life. I would venture to say that no Calvinist believes that the Israelites looked to the bronze serpent because they had already been cured and given life. Since this is the illustration that Christ chose to explain the nature of his atonement and the means by which we attain life, it is absurd to believe that Jesus was teaching that the new birth precedes faith in John 3:3, 6. Consider the parallels,

The Bronze Snake:

The Israelites had to look to the bronze serpent to escape the deadly effects of the venom and experience life, “Anyone who is bitten can look at [the serpent] and live…when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake they lived.” [Numbers 21:8, 9]

The Crucified Messiah:

Only those who look to the Messiah’s atonement by faith in His blood will escape the deadly effects of sin and experience new life, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son [as a necessary atonement], that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” [Jn. 3:14-16]

Rather than allowing Jesus to explain His own teaching, the Calvinist wants to “explain” what Jesus meant before He does. If we want to understand what Jesus meant by His comments in John 3:3, 6, we only need to keep reading. If we can resist the temptation to read our theology into his comments we will soon discover that one is born again by believing in Christ and thereby appropriating the benefits of His atonement. Only after the blood of the “lifted up” Messiah is applied through faith can one begin to experience the eternal life that begins at the new birth.

When Jesus said that no one can “see” or “enter” the Kingdom of God unless that person was born again, He was teaching the necessity of the application of His atoning work. Only when sin is dealt with in the life of the individual can that person experience life and move into the sphere of God’s holy Kingdom. Jesus made it clear that the soul cleansing benefits of His atoning work are given only to those who “believe” in Him.

Nicodemus may have walked away confused and frustrated but Jesus perfectly explained to him why the Jewish view of salvation was inadequate. The only way for anyone, Jew or Gentile, to attain the life of the Messianic Kingdom is for them to personally put their faith in the atoning work of the Messiah. While John 3:3 and 6, when read in the context of the entire chapter, lends further weight to the Arminian view, it fails as a proof text for the Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration preceding faith.https://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2007/08/20/does-jesus-teach-that-regeneration-precedes-faith-in-john-33-6/

hope this helps !!!
 
More on John 3


The new birth and the gospel.


Born of Water John 3


John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.

The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.

The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- God causes us to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in the new birth God is the Active One and the one who causes the birth but we must believe to be saved, regenerated.

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom, believing and not believing

summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again, regeneration )

Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.

hope this helps !!!
 
@civic
Calvinist like yourself do not understand Jesus teaching on the new birth in John 3. Like you said by projecting on @TomL you are the one having selective reading disease.
Take this post and put it in the new thread you have started and I want to address this first there.

I'm not a Calvinist, since I do not teach some of what they do. I do not teach infant baptism, Covenant theology, etc. But, I do not care what folks call me, I rather be called a Calvinist than an Armenian any day if the truth was known.
 
@civic

Take this post and put it in the new thread you have started and I want to address this first there.

I'm not a Calvinist, since I do not teach some of what they do. I do not teach infant baptism, Covenant theology, etc. But, I do not care what folks call me, I rather be called a Calvinist than an Armenian any day if the truth was known.
you believe Tulip correct ?
 
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@civic

Here is what I beleive and have for almost forty years when this was first preached:

https://letgodbetrue.com/sermons/index/year-2006/calvinism-arminianism-and-the-truth/
there is no truth in that link. its filled with error.

  1. However, we are hyper-Calvinists regarding salvation, for we teach regeneration before faith, a different purpose for faith and the gospel, and the definite possibility of God’s elect backsliding into sin and having their faith overthrown (but not losing eternal life).
The above is a different faith, a different gospel than Jesus and the Apostles taught.


And the section on " TRUTH " is filled with many errors and false accusations.
 
nope the new birth comes after hearing and believing the gospel.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of terms like “new birth” since people tend to be sloppy in how they define these terms (meaning different things to different people and varying from application to application). However, we can learn from what GOD meant when the term (“born again”) is used in scripture:
  • John 3:3 [ESV] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
    • “Born again is essential to being able to see “the kingdom of God” (whatever one decides that Kingdom is, exactly).
    • Without “born again”, a person cannot “see” (Jesus said it, not me).
  • 1 Peter 1:3 [ESV] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    • GOD is the one who “has caused us to be born again” … so ‘born again’ is something God does (causes) and not something that we do.

Notice the Ordo Salutis of events in the Biblical example of Lydia:
  • Acts 16:14 [ESV] One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
    • The LORD opened her heart
    • Lydia paid attention (was able to ‘see’ as John 3 would say)
    • Lydia accepted the GOSPEL that she heard from Paul.
GOD made the first move and THEN Lydia was able to listen and believe.
 
Personally, I am not a huge fan of terms like “new birth” since people tend to be sloppy in how they define these terms (meaning different things to different people and varying from application to application). However, we can learn from what GOD meant when the term (“born again”) is used in scripture:
  • John 3:3 [ESV] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
    • “Born again is essential to being able to see “the kingdom of God” (whatever one decides that Kingdom is, exactly).
    • Without “born again”, a person cannot “see” (Jesus said it, not me).
  • 1 Peter 1:3 [ESV] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    • GOD is the one who “has caused us to be born again” … so ‘born again’ is something God does (causes) and not something that we do.

Notice the Ordo Salutis of events in the Biblical example of Lydia:
  • Acts 16:14 [ESV] One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
    • The LORD opened her heart
    • Lydia paid attention (was able to ‘see’ as John 3 would say)
    • Lydia accepted the GOSPEL that she heard from Paul.
GOD made the first move and THEN Lydia was able to listen and believe.
God causes the birth which comes after man believes the gospel. God gives salvation, eternal life to those who first believe.

I have provided plenty of Scripture that affirm the order is as follows

1- faith in the gospel
2- salvation is given, the new birth, eternal life.
3- 2 above is the result of 1 above.
 
@civic

Take this post and put it in the new thread you have started and I want to address this first there.

I'm not a Calvinist, since I do not teach some of what they do. I do not teach infant baptism, Covenant theology, etc. But, I do not care what folks call me, I rather be called a Calvinist than an Armenian any day if the truth was known.
The Baptist term is Particular Baptist … because God saved “particular” people (individuals) rather than a “General Baptist” that believes that God purchased a “general” opportunity for any person to be saved without choosing a “particular” individual to be saved.

Baptists reject much of the WCF on things that Presbyterians accept (like Infant Baptism).
 
God causes the birth which comes after man believes the gospel. God gives salvation, eternal life to those who first believe.
Lydia was the opposite order.
God opened her heart to believe so that she could hear.
Jesus said that the new birth precedes “seeing” the Kingdom.

I will believe the scripture over your inversion of the order.
 
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