Clearly belief is a condition
Those who believe have life
Those who do not do not have life
This is a plainly obvious condition.
Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
Those who believe have life
Those who do not do not have life
This is a plainly obvious condition.
@TomL
So, Tom, let me show you how the whole context of Romans 10:1-13 must be consider or else whatever we leave with cannot be the truth if all verses are not taken into consideration, which you made no attempt to do, but, it does not surprise me in the least.
Tom, it is impossible to come up with the right interpretation of Romans 10:1-13, without very carefully expounding and grasping the truth of what Paul is saying the first five verses of Romans 10, impossible. Please consider carefully posit #429 again.
The election of grace within Israel declared and proved in 9:6 and following must be seen to explain Israel in 10:1.
Romans 10:1~"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
Many corrupt Paul’s desire and prayer by missing or rejecting elect (2nd Timothy 2:10,11; 2nd Thess. 3:1,2, etc.). Many corrupt Israel as national Israel, Jews, God’s chosen people, ignoring Romans 9:6 and following. Many corrupt salvation as from sin and the lake of fire to eternal heaven, missing "gospel conversion" here. Tom, ignoring the context of election within Israel established in the previous chapter is a travesty. Israel in Romans 10:1 cannot be national or natural Israel without qualification, for such was already rejected, and Paul would never go against God's will in praying for them. We shall see exactly whom Paul desired and prayed for by keep reading and listening. The context will indeed drive the true biblical interpretation for us.
Paul desire was for elect Israel to be saved. Saved in what sense? Not in a regenerated sense, but saved in a practical sense as we shall prove.
The salvation here might occur, as it was only a possibility through Paul’s desire, prayer, and labor.
God’s election is absolutely and eternally certain, and not a single elect can or will be lost, which Paul had established beyond any doubt before he addressed the issue of Israel (8:28-39). Nowhere in scripture do we read of a heart’s desire or prayer to God for election of any, which is God’s work alone, and Paul had already ascribed it to the will of the Potter alone (9:15-24).
As we shall see, to the truth is the salvation here, and it varies greatly among the elect of God, which is clearly seen on such forums as this one.
It was for elect Israelites that Paul endured all things for gospel conversion (2nd TImothy 2:10). Consider that Paul had once been like them ~ elect and zealous but ignorant of Jesus Christ. Or will you foolishly assume with most that Paul thought he could work faith in those Jews that Jesus said would not be moved even by a man coming back from the dead (Luke 16:31)?
The salvation here is conversion to the truth of one already regenerated by the Spirit.
The ordo salutis of salvation has long been forgotten and overlooked by nearly all believers. God will infallibly save His elect through election, justification, regeneration, and glorification. Paul cannot in any sense seek to save those without mercy to will and run for mercy (9:15-16)!
The only salvation with any uncertainty is gospel conversion to the full knowledge of the truth. Gospel conversion is the educational process by which a person learns what Jesus has done for him and what he can in turn do for Jesus ~ it is a lifelong matter of conforming to Jesus Christ. However, the gospel conversion of His elect to the true knowledge of salvation varies greatly, as seen on Christian's chat rooms such as this one. I can say much more but enough for now, on this point.
Romans 10:2~ "For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge."
Here Paul tell us why he prayed for elect Israel, (9:6) not for national, but those among them that Paul gives witness to that they had a true zeal for God, yet that zeal was not based upon true knowledge of the truth, which he shall very soon explain why he is saying what he is saying. There were many among Israel that Christ and even Paul warned folks of, yet there was a certain numbers among national Israel, that had a love for and a godly zeal toward God, yet were still in error, and it was for these folks Paul prayed for. Much like we see on Christian forums. Some we avoid, others we may strongly disagree with, yet we can see that these folks loved and fear God and have a godly zeal for him, yet that holy zeal is not based on true knowledge of the truth and it is for these folks we labor and pray for!
Conversion is the educational process to change from a state of ignorance to one of knowledge. The only thing Paul had to change was their knowledge, not their hearts, wills, or zeal. CONTEXT, CONTEXT! There is nothing here at all about getting them born again, quickened, regenerated, or renewed. The zeal of elect Israel was of God, but they directed it toward Moses’ Law and away from Christ.
The purpose of the gospel is to bring knowledge of God to those ignorant of it, but it only benefits the elect (2nd Timothy 1;10; 2:10; Titus 1:1-3; Ephesians 1:17; Ist Corinthians 1:18-24; 2nd Corinthians 4:3-7; 10:4-6; 2nd Peter 2:20).
How many elect are there in other churches and denominations worshipping without knowledge? Many, more than we know for sure Just like Galatian saints that fell from grace in knowledge, these did not know grace (Gal 5:4).
Later....
I see you quoted Romans 10:1-13 from (NASB95) and I also noticed how you begin to put your emphasis on verses 6-10, when you failed to truly consider the whole context, which I knew you and others would.
So, Tom, let me show you how the whole context of Romans 10:1-13 must be consider or else whatever we leave with cannot be the truth if all verses are not taken into consideration, which you made no attempt to do, but, it does not surprise me in the least.
Romans 10:1-13~"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from aboveOr, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Tom, it is impossible to come up with the right interpretation of Romans 10:1-13, without very carefully expounding and grasping the truth of what Paul is saying the first five verses of Romans 10, impossible. Please consider carefully posit #429 again.
The election of grace within Israel declared and proved in 9:6 and following must be seen to explain Israel in 10:1.
Romans 10:1~"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
Many corrupt Paul’s desire and prayer by missing or rejecting elect (2nd Timothy 2:10,11; 2nd Thess. 3:1,2, etc.). Many corrupt Israel as national Israel, Jews, God’s chosen people, ignoring Romans 9:6 and following. Many corrupt salvation as from sin and the lake of fire to eternal heaven, missing "gospel conversion" here. Tom, ignoring the context of election within Israel established in the previous chapter is a travesty. Israel in Romans 10:1 cannot be national or natural Israel without qualification, for such was already rejected, and Paul would never go against God's will in praying for them. We shall see exactly whom Paul desired and prayed for by keep reading and listening. The context will indeed drive the true biblical interpretation for us.
Paul desire was for elect Israel to be saved. Saved in what sense? Not in a regenerated sense, but saved in a practical sense as we shall prove.
The salvation here might occur, as it was only a possibility through Paul’s desire, prayer, and labor.
God’s election is absolutely and eternally certain, and not a single elect can or will be lost, which Paul had established beyond any doubt before he addressed the issue of Israel (8:28-39). Nowhere in scripture do we read of a heart’s desire or prayer to God for election of any, which is God’s work alone, and Paul had already ascribed it to the will of the Potter alone (9:15-24).
As we shall see, to the truth is the salvation here, and it varies greatly among the elect of God, which is clearly seen on such forums as this one.
It was for elect Israelites that Paul endured all things for gospel conversion (2nd TImothy 2:10). Consider that Paul had once been like them ~ elect and zealous but ignorant of Jesus Christ. Or will you foolishly assume with most that Paul thought he could work faith in those Jews that Jesus said would not be moved even by a man coming back from the dead (Luke 16:31)?
The salvation here is conversion to the truth of one already regenerated by the Spirit.
The ordo salutis of salvation has long been forgotten and overlooked by nearly all believers. God will infallibly save His elect through election, justification, regeneration, and glorification. Paul cannot in any sense seek to save those without mercy to will and run for mercy (9:15-16)!
The only salvation with any uncertainty is gospel conversion to the full knowledge of the truth. Gospel conversion is the educational process by which a person learns what Jesus has done for him and what he can in turn do for Jesus ~ it is a lifelong matter of conforming to Jesus Christ. However, the gospel conversion of His elect to the true knowledge of salvation varies greatly, as seen on Christian's chat rooms such as this one. I can say much more but enough for now, on this point.
Romans 10:2~ "For I bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge."
Here Paul tell us why he prayed for elect Israel, (9:6) not for national, but those among them that Paul gives witness to that they had a true zeal for God, yet that zeal was not based upon true knowledge of the truth, which he shall very soon explain why he is saying what he is saying. There were many among Israel that Christ and even Paul warned folks of, yet there was a certain numbers among national Israel, that had a love for and a godly zeal toward God, yet were still in error, and it was for these folks Paul prayed for. Much like we see on Christian forums. Some we avoid, others we may strongly disagree with, yet we can see that these folks loved and fear God and have a godly zeal for him, yet that holy zeal is not based on true knowledge of the truth and it is for these folks we labor and pray for!
But not according to knowledge.
The key issue here, stated clearly in verses 1-5, is elect Israel’s ignorance, or lack of knowledge. There is nothing here at all about getting them born again, or regenerated. God forbid!Conversion is the educational process to change from a state of ignorance to one of knowledge. The only thing Paul had to change was their knowledge, not their hearts, wills, or zeal. CONTEXT, CONTEXT! There is nothing here at all about getting them born again, quickened, regenerated, or renewed. The zeal of elect Israel was of God, but they directed it toward Moses’ Law and away from Christ.
The purpose of the gospel is to bring knowledge of God to those ignorant of it, but it only benefits the elect (2nd Timothy 1;10; 2:10; Titus 1:1-3; Ephesians 1:17; Ist Corinthians 1:18-24; 2nd Corinthians 4:3-7; 10:4-6; 2nd Peter 2:20).
How many elect are there in other churches and denominations worshipping without knowledge? Many, more than we know for sure Just like Galatian saints that fell from grace in knowledge, these did not know grace (Gal 5:4).
Later....
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@Selah
Wonderful scriptures, for now please only consider this thought. The life we now live in the flesh as children of God, we live NOT by our faith, but by the faith of the new man within us that was created after the image of the Son of God, which proves to any sincere seeker of the truth, that before we were born again we HAD NO POWER TO HAVE FAITH, impossible or Paul would have never said that the life we now live in the flesh we lived by the faith of the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us! These are powerful, wonderful words to a sinner saved by grace, knowing just how weak we are in our flesh!
Conditions equal works on man's, and salvation from sin and condemnation is 100% pure grace. Jesus Christ by his life of faith and obedience secured eternal life for his people, or else, he died in vain!
Galatians 2:20,21
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”Wonderful scriptures, for now please only consider this thought. The life we now live in the flesh as children of God, we live NOT by our faith, but by the faith of the new man within us that was created after the image of the Son of God, which proves to any sincere seeker of the truth, that before we were born again we HAD NO POWER TO HAVE FAITH, impossible or Paul would have never said that the life we now live in the flesh we lived by the faith of the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us! These are powerful, wonderful words to a sinner saved by grace, knowing just how weak we are in our flesh!
@TomL
As I said above, whenever we see a double verily, our Lord is about to teach a truth that few will believe so, he introduces his subject with a double verily, in spite of what others say and teach, here is the truth!
The hour is coming, and now is.
Jesus now had the authority as the Son of God to resurrect men in regeneration, by his powerful voice alone
When the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God.
We receive this quickening by the life-giving voice of Christ as regeneration. This resurrection comes in close connection to the gift of eternal life (5:24). It is evident by one having the power to ear, see, and believe. There is a quickening from death to life to be identified here (Eph 2:1-3). This is the first resurrection (spiritual) to save some from the second death (Revelation 20:6). It is the voice of the Son of God here, not the voice of preachers about the Son. If we insert the voice of preachers or soul winners here, we must in 28 also. His shout will raise all dead bodies (28-29), so His voice is effectual here.
And they that hear shall live.
The hearing here is limited – it is not all as in the next resurrection of bodies. The hearing here is passive – in that dead cannot hear but come alive anyway. When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, His call was not an offer or a suggestion. When Jesus raised Lazarus, His call was effectual with power to give life. This is just as true of the son of the widow of Nain and of Jairus’s daughter. In comparison to the next resurrection, all corrupt bodies respond passively. There is no consideration or cooperation by dead souls or by dead bodies!
Thank you for using John 5:25, it belongs in our camp, not yours.
Tom, sorry I overlooked John 5:25 not on purpose that's for sure. Tom, do you truly want to go here? I love John 5:25, and for these reasons..........
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Verily, verily, I say unto you.As I said above, whenever we see a double verily, our Lord is about to teach a truth that few will believe so, he introduces his subject with a double verily, in spite of what others say and teach, here is the truth!
The hour is coming, and now is.
Jesus now had the authority as the Son of God to resurrect men in regeneration, by his powerful voice alone
When the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God.
We receive this quickening by the life-giving voice of Christ as regeneration. This resurrection comes in close connection to the gift of eternal life (5:24). It is evident by one having the power to ear, see, and believe. There is a quickening from death to life to be identified here (Eph 2:1-3). This is the first resurrection (spiritual) to save some from the second death (Revelation 20:6). It is the voice of the Son of God here, not the voice of preachers about the Son. If we insert the voice of preachers or soul winners here, we must in 28 also. His shout will raise all dead bodies (28-29), so His voice is effectual here.
And they that hear shall live.
The hearing here is limited – it is not all as in the next resurrection of bodies. The hearing here is passive – in that dead cannot hear but come alive anyway. When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, His call was not an offer or a suggestion. When Jesus raised Lazarus, His call was effectual with power to give life. This is just as true of the son of the widow of Nain and of Jairus’s daughter. In comparison to the next resurrection, all corrupt bodies respond passively. There is no consideration or cooperation by dead souls or by dead bodies!
Thank you for using John 5:25, it belongs in our camp, not yours.
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That is a clear error
John 5:24–25 (LEB) — 24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 “Truly, truly I say to you, that an hour is coming—and now is here—when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones who hear will live.
In context those who hear who believe will live
BTW Lazarus was a physical resurrection
Such a resurrection was not in effect at that time.
Also BTW the hearing is not passive but active
ἀκούσαντες
VAAP-PNM(64)
ἀκούω
The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament (Logos Bible Software, 2011).
That is an active verb
The one who lives is one who hears and believes.
Um it was in fact you who failed to consider the whole context as I had shown
In all that you posted, nothing at all exists that may be considered contrary to how I have interpreted the verse
You had not addressed the refutation of the Calvinist doctrine of total inability.
And you are still stuck on the verse that puts confession and belief before salvation.
Again you have not yet addressed the points I made
Making a claim of impossibility is proof of nothing if you are not going to back it up with scripture.
You fail to recognize Romans 10:1-5 concerns Jewish effort for self-righteousness.
Romans 10:1–5 (LEB) — 1 Brothers, the desire of my heart and my prayer to God on behalf of them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For ignoring the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does this will live by it.”
when
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes
and that is expounded on by the scriptures below
Romans 10:6–13 (LEB) — 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
and my exegesis
which I still do not see as addressed
Your problem here is in your understanding of Israel's election
You assume it concerns unconditional election unto salvation and thus your argument is based upon assumption.
However only but a remnant will be saved
Romans 9:27–33 (LEB) — 27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Even if the number of the sons of Israel is like the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved, 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence thoroughly and decisively upon the earth.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom and would have resembled Gomorrah.” 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness—even the righteousness that is by faith. 31 But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, did not attain to the law. 32 Why that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes people to stumble, 33 just as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble, and a rock that causes them to fall, and the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
The Gentiles spoken of obtained the righteousness that is by faith.
The Israelites, however, did not obtain righteousness because they did not pursue the righteousness that is by faith.
Paul desire is indeed for their actual salvation
Romans 10:1–10 (LEB) — 1 Brothers, the desire of my heart and my prayer to God on behalf of them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For ignoring the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does this will live by it.” 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
as the context clearly showed and continues to show
Romans 10:11–13 (LEB) — 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
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brightfame52
Active Member
No I didnt, you ignoring my response
Romans 10:3
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.""For they being ignorant of God's righteousness"~They were not ignorant of the holiness and infinite righteousness of God personally, that they fully understood, what they were ignorant of, was the righteousness God provided for his people through his Son, Jesus Christ ~ this we know by reading ahead: Where Paul said: "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." They were ignorant of how God justified sinners freely by his grace. They had not heard or believed the gospel that explained God made men righteous by Christ's redemption work alone on their behalf without their works being involved, they like so many in or day thought they they had to contribute something to what Christ did even if it was no more than believing, which many think it is in their power to do so, in spite of so many scriptures teaching otherwise.
"going about to establish their own righteousness"~ Due to Israel’s ignorant they put confidence in their flesh, they thought they could be righteous before God, by doing certain spiritual acts of faith, like so many in our day. But this vain idea was altogether impossible, for Moses’ Law proves universal depravity and that form birth. Plus... Paul had already thoroughly established there were none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:9-18). Paul had also identified the Law as a vehicle to condemn men (Romans 3:19-20; 5:20-21; 7:5-23). The Law was so strict that it condemned any who fell short of perfection (Galatians 3:10; James 2:10).
"have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."~ This is something a regenerated child of God can do. As Paul had himself, they kicked against the gospel pricks and would not submit to Jesus Christ. Opposed to hard labor to justify oneself, gospel faith stops work and trusts Christ’s finished work. There is glorious rest in the gospel of Christ for those who stop working and believe (Hebrews 4:1-11). This rest is not heaven, and the way to get it is not regeneration – it is the gospel rest of conversion. Stop trusting in one's flesh and totally trust in what Jesus Christ did to secured for us this blessed rest in knowing that the gift of eternal life has been secured for us by our surety.
Romans 10:4
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”This is a powerful verse. Christ alone is the only means of one being justified freely by God's grace. Our works and God's grace are diametrically opposed to each other, they cannot mixed, it is either one or the other.
Romans 11:6
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”When Paul said Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, the law meaning any and all works that a man has an active part in, would fall under the works of the Law. Jesus Christ is the end of the law that in essence said...this do and live, sin and die ! Jesus Christ is our surety before God's holy Law and his perfect faith and obedience delivered us from its curse, and we do not want to our ourselves back under the works of the law knowing that in our flesh dwelleth no good thing, not one.
"to every one that believeth"~
The issue is not that the elect must believe in order to be just before God, but to know they are just. Of course, Arminians believe and teach that dead sinners achieve everything by their faith. Calvinists are close, for they believe and teach various degrees of instrumentality and means. Abraham’s standing before God did not change in Genesis 15:6, but Abraham was reassured! This verse is not conditional but rather descriptive of evidence of justification to lay hold of it. God’s actual, literal, or legal mercy and compassion are without willing or running (9:15-16)!
Our assurance and evidence of justification – of being just before God – is by faith in Jesus Christ. The matter under consideration here in this chapter is faith in the gospel record of Jesus Christ.
Later......
Nonsense
You had no response to this
Um from the context of the verse
John 3:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Seems to indicate a condemnation that already exists.
While you have a theology where some of these unbelievers are blessed.
brightfame52
Active Member
No its not
Which indicates they were not all saved
Romans 9:27–29 (LEB) — 27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Even if the number of the sons of Israel is like the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved, 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence thoroughly and decisively upon the earth.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom and would have resembled Gomorrah.”
Romans 10:1–9 (LEB) — 1 Brothers, the desire of my heart and my prayer to God on behalf of them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For ignoring the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does this will live by it.” 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10–13 (LEB) — 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
You did not address this
Um from the context of the verse
John 3:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Seems to indicate a condemnation that already exists.
While you have a theology where some of these unbelievers are blessed.
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civic
Active Member
faith doesn't matter in his system, neither does the gospel. one is saved without having faith or hearing and obeying the call of the gospel.
its anti-biblical
its anti-christ
anti-truth
anti-gospel
and many other anti's too.
brightfame52
Active Member
False
@TomL
Again, no pun intended, but, your statement is an oxymoron statement~a dead man cannot hear, see, and believe, yet you said:
Tom, I have already addressed John 5:24 so, not going to do so again. #418
Again, no pun intended, but, your statement is an oxymoron statement~a dead man cannot hear, see, and believe, yet you said:
So, Tom you believe one that is dead in tresspasse and in sins must do spiritual acts that even a born again child of God fails to do perfectly, before they live? The devil has stolen your powers to even be rational in your thinking.
civic
Active Member
no your view of dead is unbiblical.
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)
Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.
Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him
In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.
In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
Below we see Jesus tell the "spiritually dead " pharisees that they refuse to come to Jesus so that they can have/receive life.
This is the complete opposite of what some religions teach. Jesus lets those dead pharisees know if they come to Jesus they can have life just as John taught in John 1:12-13 and Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3:16-18. Belief in Him always precedes life. As I have mentioned before this is consistent with Jesus teachings throughout the gospels. He said no less than 13 times that- YOUR FAITH has saved you, healed, you, made you well. Not the faith that He gave them , saved them. It was THEIR OWN FAITH THAT SAVED THEM. When one placed their faith in Him they will be saved, have life, be regenerate, receive eternal life, salvation. Those conditions are taught by all the apostles and writers of the N.T.
John 5
“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?
The result is our regeneration, life, salvation, eternal life, new birth, born again- all synonyms. Don't let anyone conflate them.
John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Psalm 25:9
He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them His way.
Psalm 25:14
The LORD confides in those who fear Him, and reveals His covenant to them.
Acts 17:11-12
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
Acts 17:30-31
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone
so we can see from the above that salvation is for everyone and God commands everyone to repent.
Gods law is to bring one to repentance and reveal one sin.
The law reveals our sin and imperfections that brings one to humble themselves and repent . Out inability to do something God commands like be perfect does not mean we cannot admit our imperfections and inability to be perfect and to rely upon Him for our perfection and not on ones self righteousness. When one understands they cannot save themselves and relies upon God for their salvation they can and will be saved. Repenting is something we do, believing is something we do, saving is what God does. He commands everyone to repent and those who do will be saved. Salvation is for everyone and everyone can repent. God saves those who repent of their sins and believe the gospel. The teaching of Jesus and the publican demonstrates the above is true without regeneration preceding repentance and belief .
Below we read Paul is reasoning with the heathen Greeks and the unbelieving Jews as Corinth. So by using reasoning, logic and persuasion the Apostle converts many of the over the next couple of years. This is how apologetics are used to persuade unbelievers who can understand the scriptures when reasoned well by the Apologist.
Acts 18
After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”
7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized.
9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.” 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
12 While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment. 13 “This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”
14 Just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio said to them, “If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you. 15 But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law—settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things.” 16 So he drove them off. 17 Then the crowd there turned on Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the proconsul; and Gallio showed no concern whatever.
Acts 14:1
At Iconium, Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue, where they spoke so well that a great number of Jews and Greeks believed.
Acts 17:2
As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Acts 18:19
When they reached Ephesus, Paul parted ways with Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue there and reasoned with the Jews.
Acts 19:26
Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
Matthew 16:15-17
He[Jesus]said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Luke 15:11-32
And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.
25 “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”
Now notice that the Son was the following :
A ) he was dead
B ) he was lost
So we have a dead son who was lost and on his own realized that he was better off as a slave back at his Fathers house. So as one who is dead he realized his lost state and was able to make his own decision to repent and return to his Fathers house and become a servant. This is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.
We know that Salvation is of the Lord . We know that the Father was not obligated to forgive and restore the son. The son recognized his sin and repented of it and his Father forgave and restored him. The son humbled himself, God didn't, the son repented, God didn't do that for him by granting it to him, the dead son returned home, the Father did not call him home. The Father restored the son after the son repented . Calvinists conflate Gods salvation( Savior ) and mans responsibility to humble themselves and repent of their sin.
CONCLUSION :
Why did Jesus speak in parables if calvinism and their view of dead is correct ?
We hear this all of the time comparing mans unregenerate state to that of Lazarus in the tomb in reformed/calvinist teachings.
The fact is calvinism's view on dead is wrong otherwise there would be no need to hide it from them. Why does Jesus need to hide truth from a dead corpse ?
See the contradiction ?
See the oxymoron ?
See the calvinists dilemma ?
In the real world we call this though process cognitive dissonance, an inconsistent and contradictory belief. So much for total inability and Jesus need for parables. This is just another example of the inconsistent calvinist/reformed position. Why would God have to harden a dead corpse, a dead man having no ability to hear, see or perceive ?
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Let’s look at the uses of the term “DEAD” in the scripture for you to decide:
1) Jesus referred to the church in Sardis as “DEAD” and called them to “wake up” (Rev 3). Given Christ’s use of the idiomatic term “DEAD” in reference to this church, should we presume that his hearers cannot respond positively to Christ’s appeal in this passage as well?
2) The Prodigal was “DEAD/lost” then “alive/found” demonstrating that the term “DEAD” is idiomatic for “separated by rebellion” not “innate moral inability” (Luke 15:24).
3) “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” – James 1:13-15
Are we born “DEAD” according to James? Or is DEATH birthed in those who sin after its “full grown?”
4) “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” – Romans 7:7-11
Are we born “DEAD” according to Paul? Or was it through the commandment, after “sin sprang to life” that DEATH came?
5) “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath…And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” -Ephesians 2:1-3, 6
This passage says nothing about how or when they died, nor does it relate their condition to any type of innate moral inability.
It does say God raised them up with Christ. Is this meant to represent the special inner work of regeneration which effectually causes them to believe after they are raised up? Let’s observe what else Paul says about being raised up in Christ.
“In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which *you were also raised up with Him through faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions” (Col. 2:11-13).
They were raised up THROUGH FAITH, not unto faith according to Paul.
Calvinists have the burden to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”soteriology101
CONCLUSION: calvinism teaching on dead is heretical and unbiblical.
hope this helps !!!
1) Jesus referred to the church in Sardis as “DEAD” and called them to “wake up” (Rev 3). Given Christ’s use of the idiomatic term “DEAD” in reference to this church, should we presume that his hearers cannot respond positively to Christ’s appeal in this passage as well?
2) The Prodigal was “DEAD/lost” then “alive/found” demonstrating that the term “DEAD” is idiomatic for “separated by rebellion” not “innate moral inability” (Luke 15:24).
3) “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” – James 1:13-15
Are we born “DEAD” according to James? Or is DEATH birthed in those who sin after its “full grown?”
4) “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” – Romans 7:7-11
Are we born “DEAD” according to Paul? Or was it through the commandment, after “sin sprang to life” that DEATH came?
5) “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath…And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” -Ephesians 2:1-3, 6
This passage says nothing about how or when they died, nor does it relate their condition to any type of innate moral inability.
It does say God raised them up with Christ. Is this meant to represent the special inner work of regeneration which effectually causes them to believe after they are raised up? Let’s observe what else Paul says about being raised up in Christ.
“In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which *you were also raised up with Him through faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions” (Col. 2:11-13).
They were raised up THROUGH FAITH, not unto faith according to Paul.
Calvinists have the burden to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”soteriology101
CONCLUSION: calvinism teaching on dead is heretical and unbiblical.
hope this helps !!!
@civic
The flesh cannot do one spiritual act pleasing to God, to teach that it can, is to call Paul, and the Holy Ghost both a lair.
You men trust in your flesh as though your flesh made the decision for Christ and once you did so, according to you doctrine, eternal life was your reward for doing so....... yet the word of God said otherwise!
Faith in my gospel that Paul has taught is everything in our justification, but, it is not OUR faith, but Christ's faith and obedience that is the only means that justifies sinners! Your gospel teaches that man's faith, (as though the flesh can produce such a spiritual act before regeneration) is the means of obtaining eternal life, when Paul clearly said this:
Romans 7:18
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”The flesh cannot do one spiritual act pleasing to God, to teach that it can, is to call Paul, and the Holy Ghost both a lair.
Romans 8:7
“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”Galatians 2:16
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”Philippians 3:9
“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”Romans 5:19
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”Philippians 3:3
“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”You men trust in your flesh as though your flesh made the decision for Christ and once you did so, according to you doctrine, eternal life was your reward for doing so....... yet the word of God said otherwise!
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