brightfame52
Active Member
How did the son became alive from the being dead ?
Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.
- Thread starter Diserner
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
We finally agree on something. You are right.
And sometimes other material can better state what our positions are then we can ourselves, IMO.
Blessings
He returned to the Father
Did you not read?
Luke 15:11–24 (LEB) — 11 And he said, “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the property that is coming to me.’ So he divided his assets between them. 13 And after not many days, the younger son gathered everything and went on a journey to a distant country, and there he squandered his wealth by living wastefully. 14 And after he had spent everything, there was a severe famine throughout that country, and he began to be in need. 15 And he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to tend pigs. 16 And he was longing to fill his stomach with the carob pods that the pigs were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. 17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired workers have an abundance of food, and I am dying here from hunger! 18 I will set out and go to my father and will say to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son! Make me like one of your hired workers.’ 20 And he set out and came to his own father. But while he was still a long way away, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And his son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! I am no longer worthy to be called your son!’ 22 But his father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet! 23 And bring the fattened calf—kill it and let us eat and celebrate, 24 because this son of mine was dead, and is alive again! He was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.
You ignored the verse
Um from the context of the verse
John 3:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Seems to indicate a condemnation that already exists.
While you have a theology where some of these unbelievers are blessed.
CONTRADICTING THE VERY WORD OF GOD
civic
Active Member
Yep tulip is false
According to his Calvinist theology, while spiritually dead men cannot believe, they can, however, refuse, hate God and do all sorts of things.
brightfame52
Active Member
So you can just stop being dead and return to living
What did the scripture say
18 I will set out and go to my father and will say to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son! Make me like one of your hired workers.’ 20 And he set out and came to his own father. But while he was still a long way away, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And his son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! I am no longer worthy to be called your son!’ 22 But his father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet! 23 And bring the fattened calf—kill it and let us eat and celebrate, 24 because this son of mine was dead, and is alive again! He was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.
What did the prodigal do?
Did he as a result not go from being dead to the Father to being alive to him?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Even Sproul got into the temporal nonsense of blurring the lines between the Gospel being the cause of enlightenment and some magic empowerment to "hear God". I think it is ridiculous how they claim to be dead themselves yet "hear" what others supposedly can't hear.
Fundamental Baptists have fought over this for many years. I was told to avoid this topic in camp meetings when I was a young man or suffer rejection. You can probably tell that I didn't ignore it. Ego feeds such positions. What God has done for others He will do for you is a message they can not preach and be true to what they believe.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
These arguments are so shallow at times like this.
This son was purposed for death. Not dead. His disposition changed. He was never not a son.
Notice the words "this son of mine".
Paul spoke of how we are the offspring of God even in the disposition of death.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
?????
The issue is man being dead
What does it mean
18 I will set out and go to my father and will say to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son! Make me like one of your hired workers.’ 20 And he set out and came to his own father. But while he was still a long way away, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And his son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! I am no longer worthy to be called your son!’ 22 But his father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet! 23 And bring the fattened calf—kill it and let us eat and celebrate, 24 because this son of mine was dead, and is alive again! He was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.
What did the prodigal do?
What did the Father say?
Did he, the son, as a result of what he did, not go from being dead to the Father to being alive to him in the father's mind?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Good. Glad you're defending this position.
First, was he still a son? Please recognize this fact.
This son wasn't literally dead. He was alive but destined for death. His future disposition was death.
Traditions as you know them have always fabricated an imaginary spiritual death that must exist that happened to Adam. This is fabricated to reconcile such words as you're referencing. There really isn't a need to do this at all. My position is that man isn't spiritually alive. Adam was never spiritually alive. Yet, Adam was/is still a son.
The "son" was lost on his way to a future death. It was a matter of disposition. He wasn't literally dead.
Dead of hearing isn't the absence of hearing. It is a disregard for what is clearly heard and understood. Such brings condemnation that is prejudged damnable to God.
You've been making progress in your understanding in all of this. Apply what you said the other day about Presentation to what I just said.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I agree. My issue primarily revolves around not understanding what someone else is saying. I don't know the times I've had a self proclaimed Calvinist, later deny the very words of Calvin. Or the Synod of Dort or the Westminster Confession. It a huge waste of time to get to this point in a conversation. It tells me that person didn't either know what Calvin said or they didn't understand what Calvin said.
Back in the late 90s I spent time discecting what people said Calvin wrote/said in comparison to what He actually wrote. It was a very enlightening experience. Since then, I prefer that people not use the words of others are if they are their own. I speak for me. I expect others to speak for themselves and not assume others would agree with them simply because someone quoted them. I've had too many experiences where those two never really meet. We have to own our words.
That however is not what we are speaking about
He was dead (past tense not future) to his father
18 I will set out and go to my father and will say to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son! Make me like one of your hired workers.’ 20 And he set out and came to his own father. But while he was still a long way away, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And his son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight! I am no longer worthy to be called your son!’ 22 But his father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet! 23 And bring the fattened calf—kill it and let us eat and celebrate, 24 because this son of mine was dead, and is alive again! He was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.
Death here is relational and indicates separation
The son passed over from a relationship that had died back to a living relationship.
A passing from death to life
Well, that is a position that is found nowhere in scripture.
Adam had a clear relationship with God.
However, it is rather curious how you can deny man ever being spiritually alive.
John 5:24 (LEB) — 24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Here, man has passed from death to life. It is not a passing from physical death to physical life
Paul speaks of the experience of going from life to death
Romans 7:9 (LEB) — 9 And I was alive once, apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life
Romans 7:11 (LEB) — 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
Ephesians 2:4–5 (LEB) — 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
Again, it is not physical life or death that is in view here.
Spiritual life, however, is in view
other verses as well
1 John 3:14 (LEB) — 14 We know that we have passed over from death to life because we love the brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Glossary
Spiritual life: Spiritual life refers to the lived experience of faith and relationship with God within a religious or spiritual context. It encompasses practices, beliefs, experiences, and disciplines that deepen one’s connection to the divine and foster personal transformation. Spiritual life often involves prayer, meditation, worship, ethical…
Transformation in Theosis: Embracing the Divine Nature
What Does It Mean to Have Spiritual Life?
Question: What does it mean to have spiritual life? Answer: The spirit is the immaterial part of humans that has the capacity to relate to God…
Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered, Volume 2 (2014–2021)
Adam
Can you claim he was created spiritually dead?
God stated to him
Genesis 2:17 (LEB) — 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.”
If he was going to die should he fail to keep the commandment of God, he must have been in a living state.
It is not physical death, as Adam continued living physically and did not die in that manner the day he sinned.
And so your theology stands refuted.
I am sorry, but you are clearly mistaken.
The son was dead and he became alive in the text
And it was a restoration of the relationship with his father which is spoken of
Luke 15:22–24 (LEB) — 22 But his father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet! 23 And bring the fattened calf—kill it and let us eat and celebrate, 24 because this son of mine was dead, and is alive again! He was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.
He was dead and made alive again
He was relationally lost to the father and then found as to relationally relate to his father to the joy of his father.
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That is clearly what had happened in the prodigal son parable.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
This is preposterous.
I know what you believe. I read it when I was a child. You don't understand what I'm saying. It is so foreign to you that you're stumbling in all of this.
Do you know what the word disposition means?
Did you receive life when you were born? Were you born from your mother's womb dead? Who wrote this post in your name?
@TomL
I'm leaving to go out of town for a few hours, but shall return ASAP. So, I'll be quick. Tom, here's what I said:
Do you hear what Paul is saying? No you do not based upon your teaching. Tom, God's elect, believe according to God's mighty power, "the same power" that raised Christ from the dead, is the same power used to raised us from being dead in tresspasses and sin!
So, it is you and others who do not truly understand what it means to be dead in tresspasses and sin. You think the preacher's alarm clock is all that's needed to raise up the dead in sins to life in Jesus Christ; well, sir, you are dead wrong on this subject. It take the mighty power of God to resurrect dead sinners to spiritual life, the mighty voice of the Son of God alone must bring forth sinners from being dead spiritually speaking to eternal life ~ our weak efforts are far too little to bring a sinner from being dead in tresspasses and sins to life in Jesus Christ. The new birth is a birth by the Spirit of God, apart from all means whatsoever.
And neither did I say you did, read what I have written a little more carefully, please.
I'm leaving to go out of town for a few hours, but shall return ASAP. So, I'll be quick. Tom, here's what I said:
Not sure how you came up with what you said I said.
Tom, I do understand by hearing what Paul said.
Ephesians 1:19,20
“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”Do you hear what Paul is saying? No you do not based upon your teaching. Tom, God's elect, believe according to God's mighty power, "the same power" that raised Christ from the dead, is the same power used to raised us from being dead in tresspasses and sin!
So, it is you and others who do not truly understand what it means to be dead in tresspasses and sin. You think the preacher's alarm clock is all that's needed to raise up the dead in sins to life in Jesus Christ; well, sir, you are dead wrong on this subject. It take the mighty power of God to resurrect dead sinners to spiritual life, the mighty voice of the Son of God alone must bring forth sinners from being dead spiritually speaking to eternal life ~ our weak efforts are far too little to bring a sinner from being dead in tresspasses and sins to life in Jesus Christ. The new birth is a birth by the Spirit of God, apart from all means whatsoever.
civic
Active Member
Jesus said : My words are spirit and life. John 6:63
"The righteousness which is of faith"~In the gospel the righteousness of God is that righteousness that He secured for his elect through the redemption work of His Son, Jesus Christ for his people, here called the righteousness which is of faith, meaning the system God has ordained for his people to live under (explained in details in Romans 4) whereby they come to see their free justification through Christ, who is the end of the law (any works that said in essence this do and live) to only those that believe, or who lived under the system of faith alone without seeking to bring their works into the salvation that Christ alone secured for his people.
"faith speaketh on this wise"~Faith speak, just as the law speak, which leaves no room for sinful man to ever expect life from it, since if you sinned in one point, you are guilty of all of it, and shall receive its curse.
But the righteousness of faith forbids ALL doubting and despair, for it looks outside of the one who has faith and looks to Christ alone as his surety fulfilling the law in his place and securing its free gift of eternal life for the man who lives by faith alone in Christ's faith and obedience!
"Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above”~ Though the righteousness of the law encourages such despondency and black despair, the righteousness of faith, the system which saints lived under looks to the doctrine of free justification by the faith of Christ, and our faith in free justification by Christ's obedience forbids every thing of this kind; assuring the sinner who by faith alone, believes Christ is come down from heaven in human nature, that he has fulfilled all the righteousness of the law by his obedience in life, and has bore the penalty of it in his sufferings and death, and is risen again for justification; so that such questions should not be put, nor such despairing thoughts encouraged: besides, to think and speak in this manner, is to set aside the whole scheme of the Gospel, and supposes the person to doubt whether Christ is come down from heaven; and therefore asks, who shall go up to bring him down? and that he is not risen from the dead; and therefore puts the question, who will go down to the deep to fetch him up? whereas he is already come, has obeyed, suffered, and died, and rose again, and is become the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes ~and those that do believe cease from trusting in any work that he thinks he may done to have part in what Christ alone did for us.
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