FreeInChrist
Active Member
This just makes me shake my head in disbelief.
Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
Doesn't it, really?
They would have to be new creations regenerated into a new nature from their old nature
2 Cor 5:17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth
clearly believing precedes the salvation
The gospel is the power of God to those that believe
And the power of the gospel is experienced by those that believe
Perhaps you need reconsider your understanding
atpollard
Active Member
NopeTHIS
Yes and Amen!
Well lets see what God states
Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Your argument appears contrary to what God states may be done
Will you claim it irrational to believe what God states?
I find it irrational to contradict him
Your problem is eternal life must be preceded by faith
John 5:24 (NASB95) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Now let's hear from a greek scholar
Hath eternal life (ἐχει ζωην αἰωνιον [echei zōēn aiōnion]). Has now this spiritual life which is endless. See 3:36. In verses 24 and 25 Jesus speaks of spiritual life and spiritual death. In this passage (21 to 29) Jesus speaks now of physical life and death, now of spiritual, and one must notice carefully the quick transition. In Rev. 20:14 we have the phrase “the second death” with which language compare Rev. 20:4–6. But hath passed out of death into life (ἀλλα μεταβεβηκεν ἐκ του θανατου εἰς την ζωην [alla metabebēken ek tou thanatou eis tēn zōēn]). Perfect active indicative of μεταβαινω [metabainō], to pass from one place or state to another. Out of spiritual death into spiritual life and so no judgement (κρισις [krisis]).
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 5:24.
The passing out of death is contrasted to coming into judgment
Further your view is clearly contradicted by scripture
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
You have man seeing life when scripture states the wrath of God remains on him and he shall not see life
BTW the very next verse in the context
John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Hearing that is believing precedes life
Jn 3:16 | For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
Jn 3:15 | so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”
Jn 6:47 | Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.
brightfame52
Active Member
And ?
@TomL
Jesus is not laying out certain conditions man must do in order to have eternal life, for there are tons of scriptures what would prove that not to be so.
These scriptures would fall under the category with those scriptures "declaring a biblical truth" taught all through the scriptures and it is this: Those that hear and believe will not perish but have everlasting life, those that believe now are NOT condemned, yet those who do not believe are condemned already and the reason being is that they have not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God! These scriptures are NOT conditions given to be done in order to have eternal life, but scriptures declaring to us biblical truths taught all through the scriptures! Believers have everlasting life NOW, unbelievers are condemned already, for their unbelief. All of God's children said: Amen, and Amen, to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, the True prophet of God whom we follow.
Later...
Again, Tom, you are not hearing what our Lord is saying. To make this very quick and simple the truth is this:
Jesus is not laying out certain conditions man must do in order to have eternal life, for there are tons of scriptures what would prove that not to be so.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”These scriptures would fall under the category with those scriptures "declaring a biblical truth" taught all through the scriptures and it is this: Those that hear and believe will not perish but have everlasting life, those that believe now are NOT condemned, yet those who do not believe are condemned already and the reason being is that they have not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God! These scriptures are NOT conditions given to be done in order to have eternal life, but scriptures declaring to us biblical truths taught all through the scriptures! Believers have everlasting life NOW, unbelievers are condemned already, for their unbelief. All of God's children said: Amen, and Amen, to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, the True prophet of God whom we follow.
Later...
brightfame52
Active Member
I believe Jn 3:18 is talking about final unbelief, which gives evidence that one is condemned by the law since Christ didn't die for them, to believe in Christ wasn't granted to them, they were not His Sheep. So they are condemned for all their sins against the law and final unbelief is evidence of that.
@TomL
First you requoted the scriptures to seemly support your position, that's not what noble Christians practice, shame on you.
Tom, you are an soldier been around a long time much like me, would you not agree with me, that context is king, and it will always drive the true interpretation of what the speaker, writer is saying, agreed? One must take the whole context of what is being said and then come up with what teh speaker is saying.
So, we must start where Paul started before he said what he said from verses nine to verse thirteen, for us to give the proper sense on vss 9-13. Shame on men who yank scriptures from their context and run with that and end up corrupting what the speaker is saying. Please consider carefully the following.
A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret. Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text. Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information. A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.
Tom, using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. We must reject this abuse of words!
Tom, have had your words used out of context before, and you hated the corruption of your intent and meaning. We make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God. But you are doing so in Romans 10:1-13 as we shall prove in our next post.
This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.
Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee!
Even if you use a verse to teach a true point, make sure you still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy. We should be quick to mark it!
What is context? Let us make sure we understand exactly what we mean by context.
Context. The whole structure of a connected passage regarded in its bearing upon any of the parts which constitute it; the parts which immediately precede or follow any particular passage or ‘text’ and determine its meaning. [OED]
Context is the surrounding information that tells us what an author means by individual words, sentences, or paragraphs within a passage. Without grasping the author’s viewpoint and intent, we will face many words and turns of phrase that we will not properly understand. By missing the author’s perspective, we will be confused and misinterpret particular and individual words, sentences, and paragraphs of the work.
Context means the weaving together of words and sentences. We must determine the sense of Scripture and not just its sound. We do this by carefully considering the connection that each word, sentence, and section have to those around it.
Every word in the Bible is part of a verse, every verse part of a paragraph, every paragraph part of a chapter, every chapter part of a book, and every book is part of the whole Bible. How in the world can we presume to isolate single words and sentences, verses? And still believe we have the true intent of the speaker? You cannot. So, with this, I'm coming back and look at Romans 10:1-13, not just two or three verses yank of of its context.
Not so fast Mr. Tom, not so fast.
First you requoted the scriptures to seemly support your position, that's not what noble Christians practice, shame on you.
Romans 10:9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”Tom, you are an soldier been around a long time much like me, would you not agree with me, that context is king, and it will always drive the true interpretation of what the speaker, writer is saying, agreed? One must take the whole context of what is being said and then come up with what teh speaker is saying.
So, we must start where Paul started before he said what he said from verses nine to verse thirteen, for us to give the proper sense on vss 9-13. Shame on men who yank scriptures from their context and run with that and end up corrupting what the speaker is saying. Please consider carefully the following.
Interpretations must agree with their context.
Remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We must not violate it; we must learn to spot those that do soA text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret. Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text. Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information. A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.
Tom, using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. We must reject this abuse of words!
Tom, have had your words used out of context before, and you hated the corruption of your intent and meaning. We make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God. But you are doing so in Romans 10:1-13 as we shall prove in our next post.
This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.
Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee!
Even if you use a verse to teach a true point, make sure you still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy. We should be quick to mark it!
What is context? Let us make sure we understand exactly what we mean by context.
Context. The whole structure of a connected passage regarded in its bearing upon any of the parts which constitute it; the parts which immediately precede or follow any particular passage or ‘text’ and determine its meaning. [OED]
Context is the surrounding information that tells us what an author means by individual words, sentences, or paragraphs within a passage. Without grasping the author’s viewpoint and intent, we will face many words and turns of phrase that we will not properly understand. By missing the author’s perspective, we will be confused and misinterpret particular and individual words, sentences, and paragraphs of the work.
Context means the weaving together of words and sentences. We must determine the sense of Scripture and not just its sound. We do this by carefully considering the connection that each word, sentence, and section have to those around it.
Every word in the Bible is part of a verse, every verse part of a paragraph, every paragraph part of a chapter, every chapter part of a book, and every book is part of the whole Bible. How in the world can we presume to isolate single words and sentences, verses? And still believe we have the true intent of the speaker? You cannot. So, with this, I'm coming back and look at Romans 10:1-13, not just two or three verses yank of of its context.
brightfame52
Active Member
Verses from the Free Will Bible By Dr. Ken Matto
1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (FWBV) 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of man through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In 1 Peter 1:5, we read that the believer is kept by the power of God and for those who believe in eternal security this verse is a great comfort because God’s power is infinite and therefore keeps the believer throughout their entire life never having to worry that anything could actually cause a loss of salvation. In the FWBV we read that the believer is kept by the power of man and we know that man is very fickle, this means that he has the ability to lose his salvation based upon the sinful nature of man. He has nothing to hold him except himselfhttps://www.scionofzion.com/verses.html
1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (FWBV) 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of man through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In 1 Peter 1:5, we read that the believer is kept by the power of God and for those who believe in eternal security this verse is a great comfort because God’s power is infinite and therefore keeps the believer throughout their entire life never having to worry that anything could actually cause a loss of salvation. In the FWBV we read that the believer is kept by the power of man and we know that man is very fickle, this means that he has the ability to lose his salvation based upon the sinful nature of man. He has nothing to hold him except himselfhttps://www.scionofzion.com/verses.html
Hardly. Quoting scriptures that the Calvinist theology takes out of context is not an ignoble practice at all.
Of course which is why I reject certain Calvinist beliefs
In all that you posted, nothing at all exists that may be considered contrary to how I have interpreted the verse
Romans 10:9
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”Clearly confession and belief preceed salvation
and in the context we see
Romans 10:1–13 (NASB95) — 1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
The phrase
THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART
is a quote from Deut 30:14
Deuteronomy 30:11–14 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
which informs us it is something that could be done contrary to Calvinist theology, which holds man cannot do it.
So in the passage we have a denial of the Calvinist theology of total inability.
Then we have a verse that shows confession and belief precede salvation.
So I will say unto you, read the whole context and realize it is contrary to Calvinist theology.
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um you skipped some verses. Why?
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Now for your denial of
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”It seems those who do not believe are condemned, but Calvinist theology has some of those who do not believe uncondemned and actually given everlasting life.
Contrary to scripture, which says those who believe are given everlasting life.
Um
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Seems to indicate a condemnation that already exists.
brightfame52
Active Member
Right a condemned man by the law wont be able to believe in Christ because he married to the law. Only Christs death for one dissolves their marriage to the Law. Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Um from the context of the verse
John 3:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Seems to indicate a condemnation that already exists.
While you have a theology where some of these unbelievers are blessed.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah any sinner Christ didnt die for is already condemned by the law. Condemnation came upon man by the disobedience of adam Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
So if Christ wasn't your surety, that condemnation remains and you cant believe in Christ. Belief in Christ is only for them He died for and Justified
You ignored the fact
So God states those who do not believe are condemned while your theology has unbelievers who are made alive
@TomL
Tom please consider:
We are not skipping verses, there's no need to do so, but you need to reconsider your position and learn how to put the proper senses on the scriptures so that you do not end up teaching salvation from sin and condemnation by works, which is what you are now doing. I need to head to Romans 10 to correct some more errors by your side.
No Tom, I did not skipped any verses, since John 3:36 falls in the category of those many scriptures that is declaring a biblical truth, which verses men corrupt by making them conditionals scriptures. LIsten carefully to our Lord's words again:
John 3:36
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”Tom please consider:
Declarations of bible truths "do not offer eternal life by conditions."
John 3:14-16 declares new information to this Jewish ruler about what God would do to the Messiah to secure eternal life for Gentile believers, but this is no conditional offering to anyone.
John 6:47 states that a believer has life – it does not say anything about how he got that life, and it is not an offer of eternal life upon conditions, especially in light of why John wrote (Ist John 5:13).
Romans 8:1 states those walking after the Spirit are not condemned, but that is not a condition.
Hebrews 5:9 states that Christ authored salvation for those who obey, but this is not a condition.
Ist John 5:11 says God gave eternal life to John’s readers through His Son, but it does not tell how He did it, nor does it make an offer of eternal life to anyone upon conditions.
John 6:47 states that a believer has life – it does not say anything about how he got that life, and it is not an offer of eternal life upon conditions, especially in light of why John wrote (Ist John 5:13).
Romans 8:1 states those walking after the Spirit are not condemned, but that is not a condition.
Hebrews 5:9 states that Christ authored salvation for those who obey, but this is not a condition.
Ist John 5:11 says God gave eternal life to John’s readers through His Son, but it does not tell how He did it, nor does it make an offer of eternal life to anyone upon conditions.
| John 3:36 | Romans 3:26 | 2nd Thess 1:8 | Ist John 2:5 | Revelation 22:14 |
| John 6:40 | Galatians 3:7 | Ist Timothy 1:16 | Ist John 3:24 | |
| John 6:54 | Galatians 3:22 | Ist Timothy 4:8 | Ist John 5:4-5 |
We are not skipping verses, there's no need to do so, but you need to reconsider your position and learn how to put the proper senses on the scriptures so that you do not end up teaching salvation from sin and condemnation by works, which is what you are now doing. I need to head to Romans 10 to correct some more errors by your side.
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Selah
Active Member
I would have to say "yeah you did"
And you still do
Tom replies
Why would I consider your statement when scripture clearly rebuts your claim and your statement offers no more than your assumption?
Let us start with
He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
And note your doctrine denies that all who believeth not shall not see life
It in fact argues that some who believeth not, shall see life
In fact your doctrine applies this to every single Christian, denying the words of Christ
You also left off
John 5:25 (LEB) — 25 “Truly, truly I say to you, that an hour is coming—and now is here—when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones who hear will live.
as part of the context of
John 5:24–25 (LEB) — 24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 “Truly, truly I say to you, that an hour is coming—and now is here—when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones who hear will live.
Belief clearly precedes life contrary to Calvinist doctrine
Um belief clearly is a condition you cannot rebut by mere denial
John 3:14–18 (LEB) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.” 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Belief is clearly a condition, and unbelief is clearly an elimination from life.
John 6:45–51 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me. 46 (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God—this one has seen the Father.) 47 Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that someone may eat from it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
The verse clearly shows belief leads one to come to Christ.
The verse also shows that life is in Christ
So to gain life you must believe in Christ
This is a clear condition and evidence you have not considered the context of the verse quoted
Um, can those without the Spirit also not be condemned?
The verse, however
Romans 8:1 (LEB) — 1 Consequently, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Notes one in Christ has no condemnation
Romans 8:2 (LEB) — 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.
And that being in Christ is necessary to be set free from death
That claim is nothing but an assumption for which you have offered no proof at all
Once again you fail to examine context
1 John 5:11–12 (LEB) — 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
To obtain life, one must have the Son.
Those without the Son do not have life.
Your doctrine, however contrary to scripture, gives life to those without the Son.
Um, actually, you skipped much, arguing based upon an assumption while ignoring the context of many verses.
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