Who is the "they"? Who is the audience?
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Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
Christ says, "NO ONE CAN COME to me unless the Father who sent draws Him and i will raise him up on the last day." Could He be any clearer?View attachment 2364
I specifically did not say "can come". That was another .
But here.... a little light reading for you.
Do you deny that Jesus said all can come?
- Matthew 11:28-30 (NKJV): “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
- Jesus invites all who are weary to come to Him, indicating that salvation is accessible to anyone willing to respond.
How about John 7:37: "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink."
Do you deny that Jesus said all can come?
Or, Revelation 22:17: "Let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price."
Do you deny that this says all can come?
And can you deny if you are invited to come, that also indicates you cab come?
Verses Inviting People to Come
Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Isaiah 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat!" John 7:37 "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink." Matthew 19:14 "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
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Verses on Divine Invitation
James 4:8 "Come near to God and he will come near to you." John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them." Revelation 3:20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person."
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No, it is not possible anyone on their own without an efficient change of their nature by God could so desire.It is possible you could want to, with a change of heart.
You know that is what Calvinism holds.
Amen. Preach it. Their moral disposition has been corrupted by sin.No, it is not possible anyone on their own without an efficient change of their nature by God could so desire.
You know that is what Calvinism holds.
A change Calvinist theology holds no one is capable on their own.It is possible you could want to, with a change of heart.
Nope. Hence God changes your heart, you become a new creation.A change Calvinist theology holds no one is capable on their own.
A change that is not possible for man according to Calvinism.It is possible you could want to, with a change of heart.
Calvinist total inability absolutely denies any such self-change possibility.
A self change man is incapable of, according to Calvinism.It is possible you could want to, with a change of heart.
It is possible. With a change of heart, heart of stone replaced with a heart of flesh.A change that is not possible for man according to Calvinism.
Calvinist total inability absolutely denies any such self-change possibility.
You do not agree with me, as I hold only believers are regenerated.What am i dodging? I agree with you. You must first be regenerated. LOL
That is, I believe one must have faith before he is made alive, as scripture shows.
John 5:24Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Rom 1:16–17For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For the righteousness of God is revealed in it from faith to faith, just as it is written, “But the one who is righteous by faith will live.”
John 3:16–18For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Rom 10:9–10that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
I disagree. Nothing good comes from the flesh. No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit..You do not agree with me, as I hold only believers are regenerated.
That is, I believe one must have faith before he is made alive, as scripture shows.
John 5:24Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Rom 1:16–17For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For the righteousness of God is revealed in it from faith to faith, just as it is written, “But the one who is righteous by faith will live.”
John 3:16–18For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Rom 10:9–10that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
In a sense I do agree with you, geniune believers are regenerated. Its the logical order in which we disagree.
Nope, are you unaware Calvinist theology holds you are incapable of desiring a relationship with God?Sure you can. You have yet to explain why not. A alcoholic could quit drinking, natural ability, if he wanted to but is not willing to do so.
BTW I have noted this previously when speaking of total inability.
So is this element of Calvinist theology unknown to you?
Also BTW some alcoholics have done so; will you therefore claim some men have believed without being regenerated?
AgainI disagree. Nothing good comes from the flesh. No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit..
In a sense I do agree with you, geniune believers are regenerated. Its the logical order in which we disagree.
You have denied scripture and misclaimed any agreement with me regarding believers and regeneration.You do not agree with me, as I hold only believers are regenerated.
That is, I believe one must have faith before he is made alive, as scripture shows.
John 5:24Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Rom 1:16–17For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For the righteousness of God is revealed in it from faith to faith, just as it is written, “But the one who is righteous by faith will live.”
John 3:16–18For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Rom 10:9–10that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
Which is not possible for man of himself, so it is not a natural ability.It is possible. With a change of heart, heart of stone replaced with a heart of flesh.
Yup, morally you are incapable. You could, if you wanted to.Nope, are you unaware Calvinist theology holds you are incapable of desiring a relationship with God?
BTW I have noted this previously when speaking of total inability.
So is this element of Calvinist theology unknown to you?
Also BTW some alcoholics have done so; will you therefore claim some men have believed without being regenerated?
Which only proves they had the natural ability all along. LOL
Yup, I do agree a geniune believer is regenerated. Its when regeneration occurs is where our disagreement lies.Again
You have denied scripture and misclaimed any agreement with me regarding believers and regeneration.
Wrong. You could if you wanted to. Natural=could Moral=if you wanted to.Which is not possible for man of himself, so it is not a natural ability.
@TomL
No sir, God's elect are regenerated so that they can see, hear, and believe. It is true, that faith is the clearest evidence that one is regenerated.
No pun intended Mr. Tom, but that's an oxymoron statement. That statement proves that the devil has you very confused. Tom, you are not even being rational in your reasoning. So, pray to tell me, how in the world can one do spiritual acts pleasing to God before they are quicked to life by the Spirit of God, what would it serve for the Spirit to give life, if they one can do spiritual acts pleasing to God before that person is made alive in the Spirit?
John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
If one can hear and believes, then that person HATH (past tense, not will have!) everlasting life! He IS PASSED ...........past tense, not will be! from being dead in tresspasses and sins to life in Jesus Christ. John 5:24 is declaring a biblical truth, it is not a conditional scripture as many desire to make it seem to be. Our Lord using the double verily he is showing us that what he is about to teach, few would truly understand what he was teaching, and is this ever so!
I'll come back and finish the other scriptures you used after a very short trip this morning.
Greetings Tom.You do not agree with me, as I hold only believers are regenerated.
No sir, God's elect are regenerated so that they can see, hear, and believe. It is true, that faith is the clearest evidence that one is regenerated.
Highlighted are mine for discussions.That is, I believe one must have faith before he is made alive
No pun intended Mr. Tom, but that's an oxymoron statement. That statement proves that the devil has you very confused. Tom, you are not even being rational in your reasoning. So, pray to tell me, how in the world can one do spiritual acts pleasing to God before they are quicked to life by the Spirit of God, what would it serve for the Spirit to give life, if they one can do spiritual acts pleasing to God before that person is made alive in the Spirit?
No sir, you never found that teaching in the scriptures.as scripture shows.
You are not hearing this scripture properly. Look at the verb tenses in this scripture spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ and if you do so, you will see if one can hear and believe that person already has eternal life, you do not do these spiritual acts of faith without already possessing life! Listen carefully once more:John 5:24Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
If one can hear and believes, then that person HATH (past tense, not will have!) everlasting life! He IS PASSED ...........past tense, not will be! from being dead in tresspasses and sins to life in Jesus Christ. John 5:24 is declaring a biblical truth, it is not a conditional scripture as many desire to make it seem to be. Our Lord using the double verily he is showing us that what he is about to teach, few would truly understand what he was teaching, and is this ever so!
I'll come back and finish the other scriptures you used after a very short trip this morning.
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@TomL
Listen carefully:
The gospel is the power of God to WHOM Tom? To those that perish? No, them it is pure foolishness.
This has always been true from Cain forward unto our day, and will forever remain true. The gospel is the power of God to those born again, and only to them, to all others it is foolishness. This is what Romans 1:16 is clearly saying, yet you don't hear it, why? Even Romans 1;17 adds to what Paul said in verse 16, please consider Paul's words carefully:
Romans 1:17
"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Tom, a child of God can only reveal truths from him to another child of faith! because Paul clearly said: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: or, from one that is born of the Spirit, to another person born of the Spirit! From faith, to faith!
You are picking wrong scriptures, actually you have no choice for the truth is one cohesive whole, teaching the same truth from Genesis to Revelation! What ever you use, is going to be misused.
Later.....
Tom, again you are not hearing what Paul is clearly saying.Rom 1:16–17For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For the righteousness of God is revealed in it from faith to faith, just as it is written, “But the one who is righteous by faith will live.”
Listen carefully:
Romans 1:16
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”The gospel is the power of God to WHOM Tom? To those that perish? No, them it is pure foolishness.
1st Corinthians 1:18
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”This has always been true from Cain forward unto our day, and will forever remain true. The gospel is the power of God to those born again, and only to them, to all others it is foolishness. This is what Romans 1:16 is clearly saying, yet you don't hear it, why? Even Romans 1;17 adds to what Paul said in verse 16, please consider Paul's words carefully:
Romans 1:17
"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Tom, a child of God can only reveal truths from him to another child of faith! because Paul clearly said: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: or, from one that is born of the Spirit, to another person born of the Spirit! From faith, to faith!
You are picking wrong scriptures, actually you have no choice for the truth is one cohesive whole, teaching the same truth from Genesis to Revelation! What ever you use, is going to be misused.
Later.....
Greetings but@TomL
Greetings Tom.
No sir, God's elect are regenerated so that they can see, hear, and believe. It is true, that faith is the clearest evidence that one is regenerated.
Nope one must believe before he receives life
Thisccomment?Highlighted are mine for discussions.
No pun intended Mr. Tom, but that's an oxymoron statement.
That is, I believe one must have faith before he is made alive
Hardly as we shall see
Well lets see what God statesThat statement proves that the devil has you very confused. Tom, you are not even being rational in your reasoning. So, pray to tell me, how in the world can one do spiritual acts pleasing to God before they are quicked to life by the Spirit of God, what would it serve for the Spirit to give life, if they one can do spiritual acts pleasing to God before that person is made alive in the Spirit?
Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Your argument appears contrary to what God states may be done
Will you claim it irrational to believe what God states?
I find it irrational to contradict him
Your problem is eternal life must be preceded by faithNo sir, you never found that teaching in the scriptures.
You are not hearing this scripture properly. Look at the verb tenses in this scripture spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ and if you do so, you will see if one can hear and believe that person already has eternal life, you do not do these spiritual acts of faith without already possessing life! Listen carefully once more:
John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
If one can hear and believes, then that person HATH (past tense, not will have!) everlasting life! He IS PASSED ...........past tense, not will be! from being dead in tresspasses and sins to life in Jesus Christ. John 5:24 is declaring a biblical truth, it is not a conditional scripture as many desire to make it seem to be. Our Lord using the double verily he is showing us that what he is about to teach, few would truly understand what he was teaching, and is this ever so!
I'll come back and finish the other scriptures you used after a very short trip this morning.
John 5:24 (NASB95) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Now let's hear from a greek scholar
Hath eternal life (ἐχει ζωην αἰωνιον [echei zōēn aiōnion]). Has now this spiritual life which is endless. See 3:36. In verses 24 and 25 Jesus speaks of spiritual life and spiritual death. In this passage (21 to 29) Jesus speaks now of physical life and death, now of spiritual, and one must notice carefully the quick transition. In Rev. 20:14 we have the phrase “the second death” with which language compare Rev. 20:4–6. But hath passed out of death into life (ἀλλα μεταβεβηκεν ἐκ του θανατου εἰς την ζωην [alla metabebēken ek tou thanatou eis tēn zōēn]). Perfect active indicative of μεταβαινω [metabainō], to pass from one place or state to another. Out of spiritual death into spiritual life and so no judgement (κρισις [krisis]).
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 5:24.
The passing out of death is contrasted to coming into judgment
Further your view is clearly contradicted by scripture
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
You have man seeing life when scripture states the wrath of God remains on him and he shall not see life
BTW the very next verse in the context
John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Hearing that is believing precedes life
Jn 3:16 | For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
Jn 3:15 | so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”
Jn 6:47 | Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.
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