brightfame52
Active Member
Everybody God regenerates turns a unbeliever into a believer. You believe a spatially dead sinner locked in unbelief turns himself into a believer. Problem with that it contradicts Jn 6:44
Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
Wake up. These were already believers in God being given over to Christ, and they were yet regenerated for
John 7:38–39 (NASB95) — 38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
The Spirit was not yet given.
The evidence shows otherwise
Once again
Jesus contradicts your claim by insisting upon the exact opposite, saying that “if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me” (John 5:46), and “if anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself” (John 7:17), and “if God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.” (John 8:42) So, if they believed Moses, and if they sought God’s will and if God truly was their father, then they would believe in Jesus, know the truth and love Jesus. It’s abundantly clear that John chapter 6 represented a giving, drawing and granting of true believers to come to Christ,
God is instructing those that are his i.e. believers so that they may be Christs
John 17:6 (LEB) — 6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word.
Read it. Backs me up quite nicely, thanks. They are not synonymous terms.
Is it? Feel free to point it out.
Sure I can. Watch. Man has the natural ability to come but not the moral ability. You could if you wanted to.
"No man can come to Me unless..... "
Fill it in. Unless what?
As shown, scripture states they may do it.
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
Your theology, of course, argues they cannot unless first being made alive spiritually (regenerated).
Such theology is contrary to the passage.
Nonsense
Your theology holds the impossibility of man coming and the impossibility of even wanting to come.
If a man in fact cannot ever of himself come, there is no natural ability to come. Redefining the meaning of words cannot change this truth.
Which is a refutation of your theology that man must first be made alive, that is, regenerated, before he can come
Men are taught by
John 6:45 (NASB95) — 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
hearing and learning
John 20:30–31 (NASB95) — 30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
contrariwise, to your doctrine we see
Those who believe Moses
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
Would believe Jesus
Those who had God as their father
John 8:42 (LEB) — 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.
Would love Jesus
Those desiring the will of God
John 7:17 (LEB) — 17 If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself.
Would know Christ's words are true.
Deal with the fact
In your doctrine
There is nothing that can actually exist within man that can enable him to come to Jesus.
Thus he has no natural ability.
Hiding behind a claim that he could if he wanted to is insufficient in that
Your doctrine affirms man can have no such desire.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
How are we taught? By man... saints preserve us.
We are taugh through the Holy Scriptures. At least I have been since my early 20s some 70 plus years ago. With the aid of
many multiple opinions that has allowed me to form my now ingrained beliefs.
If you are relying on man's teaching, you will be limiting yourself.... If you rely on one mans interpretations of scriptures you also will be limited. That was me following my Presbyterian teachings, until I learned.
But Scriptures are the divine inspired word of God and as such they are valuble teaching tools from God.
In addition we also learn from God that those who receive true understanding and guidance from God will naturally be drawn to Him and seek a relationship with Him. This process often involves being open to learning from God's teachings, which can come through scripture, prayer, and even spiritual experiences...
@Presby02 .. you are not a newbie to forums.
I am sure you have bumped into those self professed agnostics then have read the bible and can quote from it better then you or I but still refuse, by their own choice to accept what they learn.
So... when you say "All who are taught by God WILL come to Him."... that is simply not so. Of course you mean those who God preselected in his predestination phase of creation before time.... I say it is by free will that they refuse based on free-will for once having heard the truth... they chose other.
And I am equally certain that those who chose other were known by God that they would be that way before creation through Hid foreknowledge.
brightfame52
Active Member
Correct, they are the same ones the Father draws from Vs 44, which are His children, thats why He is called the Father, He isnt Just the Father of Jesus Christ, but of all He gives the son 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
The children Heb 2 13-14
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And Isa 54 13 Identifies the ones in Jn 6:45 as children and if so, then its children in Vs 44
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Point out in the text where it says "can come".
He has the natural ability but not the moral ability. He could come if he wanted to.
He can have such a desire with a heart change. God acts first.
You said can come to Him. Are you retracting your obvious error?
Of course, how is it we come to hear and learn from the Father? The things of God only understood by the Spirit? When the Spirit chooses to reveal them to us.
Sure there is. You could if you wanted to but you don't. Natural vs moral ability.
Irrelevant to the fact they are not synonymous terms. Thanks for chiming in though.
civic
Active Member
One in the same
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