"Works Salvation"

[civic]

Exactly and well said. The Psalms are full of hyperbolic statements. It doesn't mean they're not true but they're true in a hyperbolic sense. Some will quote Ps 5 which states God hates all workers of iniquity. So some jump up and say "See there! God hates sinners!" But we use hyperbolic statements in our day. I've seen some parents who have been horribly hurt by their adult offspring. They might in a burst of emotion say they just hate their kid. Do they REALLY though? No. They still love them very much.

If something happened to them they would be hurt, weeping and upset. Why? Because they GENUINELY care about them and want the best for them! In other words the parent does love their kid. In a similar way God loves all sinners. They may displease him yes make him mad but still doesn't mean he doesn't love them,

We could maybe say the Father of the prodigal son in Lk 15 hated his son for leaving. It hurt him deeply. But did he really hate him? NO. It even says he saw him coming from afar off. This tells us his heart was longing for the one who hurt him to come home.....HE LOVED HIM. So does God the sinner.

Amen

 

[dwight92070]

Thats false, one cant obey unless they have been saved. A lost man cannot obey lol, he lost

Of course he can. Jesus commanded lost men to "Repent and believe the gospel". If lost men cannot obey Him, then nobody would be saved. Where do people come up with these obvious fallacies?

No, there are no more. Those are the things that Scripture says "lead to" our receiving salvation. Please remember, Dwight, that ALL Scripture is equal: equally true, equally correct, and equally applicable. What that means is that when there are multiple things that Scripture says lead to something else, all of those things must be true. It is not correct to say that you can take one or the other of them and them all still be true. In other words, when Rom 10:9-10 says believe and confess Jesus' name, and then Acts 2:38 says repent and be baptized, all four of those things must be correct, not just one or the other of them.

That event came long before the Lord's death, and so has no bearing on NT salvation. Jesus had the authority and power to give salvation, forgiveness, and any other blessing from God to anyone He chose right up until His death (Luke 5:24). It also does not contain a command from the Lord, but was Zaccheus' personal choice to make amends for the wrongs he had done.

Dwight - No bearing on NT salvation? What was it, OT salvation? The last time I checked, the story of Zaccheus was in the New Testament. Jesus spoke many times about the new covenant requirements and blessings BEFORE His death. "You must be born again." was BEFORE His death. "If anyone is thirsty, let Him come to Me and drink" was before His death. "Abide in Me" was before His death. "If anyone keeps My word, He will never see death." was before His death. So yes, people got saved under the New Covenant, even though Jesus had not yet died, and the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. Even though Jesus NEVER told Zaccheus to be baptized, Jesus' disciples WERE baptizing new believers. Notice Zaccheus was justified BEFORE being baptized. Zaccheus' good works demonstrated his faith, NOT water baptism, although it is very likely that he did get baptized, as it appears all new believers did. Through his good works, Zaccheus showed that he was REPENTING and BELIEVING the gospel of the kingdom of God, which WAS COMMANDED by Jesus. So, yes, there WAS a command.

Dwight - Immediately after His ministry started with His baptism, He proclaimed that the kingdom of God was at hand or near. Those who received His message were saved and justified and Jesus' disciples baptized them. Those who were saved before His death were saved the same way people were saved after His death - by grace through faith. The difference was that when the Holy Spirit was poured out, all the disciples were given the Holy Spirit and they entered the kingdom of God, which is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. Apparently the Holy Spirit was given to them at or after Pentecost. What about all the people that the disciples of Jesus baptized while Jesus was still alive? Did they have to get baptized again after Pentecost, so they could receive the Holy Spirit and be justified? We don't read anywhere that they did that. The only ones who were baptized a second time appears to be those who were baptized by John the Baptist - Acts 19.

The study of the OT brings wisdom and strengthens faith through which we receive salvation. That is, again, not a command of something that is required before salvation is received.

Dwight - Really? Have you ever read Psalm 119? or Psalm 19? There's no command to read and study the Old Testament? Didn't Jesus quote "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."? That would be the Old Testament he's referring to. Just about everything Jesus said was repeating or explaining the Old Testament. The word of God, Old and New, brings us to salvation. And yes, God commands us to read and study it. 2 Timothy 3:15-17; John 8:31-32

We can know that we are walking in the Light, and as such have confidence in the trustworthiness of the Lord to fulfill His promises to continually cleanse us from all sin (1 John 1:7). So we do not have to wait until the end to know that we are saved.

No, there are only the four things from the beginning of your post that Scripture says are required to receive salvation: belief of the Gospel, repentance from sin, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism (in water).

Dwight - I noticed that you added "confession of Jesus as Lord" to your "requirements". I don't believe that you mentioned that one in your first posts on this topic. I wonder why?

As mentioned before, before our Lord died, the thief on the cross was given the promise that he would be with the Lord in paradise. Before His death, Jesus could give salvation to anyone He chose. But after He died, His will (Last will and testament) was set and cannot be altered (Heb 9:16-17).

Dwight - You speak like a Calvinist, where Jesus chooses some for salvation and not others. The truth is, it was THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES who chose to repent and believe the gospel of the kingdom of God - or not, the SAME as it is now.

And here is where you change what Scripture says to fit your preconception.
What part of the original text of Acts 2:38 points to a differentiation between repentance and baptism? Why is repentance a requirement for salvation, but baptism is not in that verse?
Simple answer: Repentance (and believing -Peter knew they believed, because they were convicted and asked what they should do) is salvation.
Water baptism is a "picture" of salvation, not the salvation itself. A picture of something is not that thing itself.

Dwight - Well, if you're going to take Acts 2:38 as a stand-alone verse, and NOT CONSIDER ALL OTHER SCRIPTURES about the topic, then I could see where you might come up with that misinterpretation. It's interesting that your wording is attempting to get me to ONLY consider this one verse, while ignoring other Bible teaching on baptism. Sorry, we're told to take ALL of scripture to get a proper interpretation. (2 Tim.3:16 - ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God ...)
Other scripture makes it perfectly clear that salvation occurs when someone REPENTS AND BELIEVES. Zaccheus did that (Jesus declared that he was saved) before he was baptized, Saul, who later was called Paul did that (Ananias called him "Brother Saul") three days before he was baptized, the Ethiopian eunuch did that (Philip told him if you believe with all your heart, you may be baptized) before he was baptized, the Philippian jailer and his household did that before being baptized, I did that (approximately 10-14 days) before I was baptized, Cornelius and his family did that before they were baptized, etc., etc.
Other scripture also makes it clear that baptism is NOT, in itself, repenting and believing - rather it is a DEPICTION of (or a picture of)what happens when that person repents and believes. He dies, is buried, he comes to life, and is raised. A picture of salvation is not salvation itself.

Acts 3:19 says that we are to repent in order to receive forgiveness. So in Acts 2:38, repentance is also in order to receive forgiveness. But baptism is also added here as a requirement equal with repentance. And in 1 Peter 3:21, repentance is not what is said to save us; baptism is.

Dwight - Acts 3:19 makes it abundantly clear what we must do to receive forgiveness of sins. I notice you don't quote the whole verse:
"Repent therefore and be converted (or return NASB), that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing my come from the presence of the Lord, ..." This lines up perfectly with "Repent and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:15) NO mention of water baptism in either of these verses.
Acts 2:38 - We know the proper interpretation of this verse by looking at ALL the other verses about baptism. It's the REPENTANCE (and believing) that remits sins, NOT the water baptism. They asked "what shall we do?", being convicted by God (in verse 37) of being complicit in the killing of Jesus. Peter commanded them to first "Repent". He knew they already "Believed", being convicted by the truth. What's the next step? Obviously, after salvation, get baptized in water.

 

[brightfame52]

Of course he can. Jesus commanded lost men to "Repent and believe the gospel". If lost men cannot obey Him, then nobody would be saved. Where do people come up with these obvious fallacies?
Dwight - Acts 3:19 makes it abundantly clear what we must do to receive forgiveness of sins. I notice you don't quote the whole verse:
"Repent therefore and be converted (or return NASB), that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing my come from the presence of the Lord, ..." This lines up perfectly with "Repent and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:15) NO mention of water baptism in either of these verses.
Acts 2:38 - We know the proper interpretation of this verse by looking at ALL the other verses about baptism. It's the REPENTANCE (and believing) that remits sins, NOT the water baptism. They asked "what shall we do?", being convicted by God (in verse 37) of being complicit in the killing of Jesus. Peter commanded them to first "Repent". He knew they already "Believed", being convicted by the truth. What's the next step? Obviously, after salvation, get baptized in water.

Sorry a lost person cant obey, they lost in disobedience. The Elect do obey once they have been regenerated by the Spirit, the Spirit causes the new man to obey 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Obedience follows the Sanctifying work of the Spirit. God the Spirit gets credit for the elects obedience.

 

[dwight92070]

Sorry a lost person cant obey, they lost in disobedience. The Elect do obey once they have been regenerated by the Spirit, the Spirit causes the new man to obey 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Obedience follows the Sanctifying work of the Spirit. God the Spirit gets credit for the elects obedience.

Dwight - I'm sorry you're fooled by Calvinism, a false teaching which has done tremendous damage in the body of Christ. A God who saves only the elect and damns the rest is not the God of the Bible. He is not willing that any should perish. If He predestined only certain persons to be saved, then it would actually be cruel of Him to rebuke the lost for their sin of rejecting Him, because He made them to be lost - they had no choice. Yet the scripture is FILLED with Him telling ALL people to repent and believe, to turn from their sins and be saved. But if it's impossible for those who He predestined to be lost, to even get saved, then He is a cruel God, allowing them NO choice whatsoever.
The God of the Bible, the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT cruel, He is slow to anger, abounding in mercy for all who call on Him. "For God so loved THE WORLD (not just the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM (not just the elect) shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
Calvinism is crushed by that verse alone.

The true elect is Jesus Himself. He is also the true Israel, the Israel of God, as Paul puts it. All those who are CHOOSE TO BE IN HIM become the elect. " ... to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (Jesus)." Those who choose to not be IN HIM are NOT ELECT. Ephesians 1:6

Paul tells us that the true seed of Abraham is Jesus. Galatians 3:16 " 'And to your seed', that is, Christ." Those who choose to believe in Jesus BECOME the seed of Abraham, the ELECT.
"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:29

So you see, ALL men have the opportunity, and can make the choice to BECOME PART OF THE ELECT, THAT IS, PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST.

By the way, are YOU part of the ELECT, according to your Calvinist doctrine? You'll NEVER KNOW UNTIL YOU DIE, but then it will be too late. The Bible, on the other hand, teaches us that we can KNOW if we are saved or not: "We KNOW that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren." 1 John3:14

"By this we KNOW that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." 1 John 4:13
"We KNOW that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may KNOW Him who is true; and we ARE IN HIM who is true, IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE." 1 John 5:20-21

 

[Rockson]

If He predestined only certain persons to be saved, then it would actually be cruel of Him to rebuke the lost for their sin of rejecting Him, because He made them to be lost - they had no choice. Yet the scripture is FILLED with Him telling ALL people to repent and believe, to turn from their sins and be saved. But if it's impossible for those who He predestined to be lost, to even get saved, then He is a cruel God, allowing them NO choice whatsoever.

The mental gymnastics that one has to do with their mind to accept Calvinism is staggering. I can't imagine anything more far away from any rational process of reasoning than that.

Calvinists would have us believe God is saying I'm going to go through the motions of telling them to repent and commanding them to do so all to make it look good that I gave them a choice, or implying that they had this capacity ....but the only one's with choice that can lead to any positive outcome will be my elect. Not to mention that I've got to put irresistible grace in one that they CAN'T RESIT to give my elect this "REAL choice."

So being overcome or overwhelmed by God imparting something irresistible . So what then was overcome?? THEY'RE REAL CHOICE! Now back to their view of God leaving the impression with all sinners that they can repent for he did tell them to do so. If he wasn't really serious within himself that they could then why make the request?

Again it has to be.... to make him look good.....which would tell us this God would know that it was good for man to have a choice. But if putting the request out was all for show then what do you have. Wouldn't that be a Pharisee? They were well known for always wanting to leave the impression that they were good, noble and honorable! Jesus spoke of such leaders as declaring CORBAN over their money....so they could look godly and devout and good.... while NOT really and truly helping out their parents with support.

All to make them look good! Jesus despised such a practice and way of thinking! Calvinism does this to the Creator. Has him doing things, implying things that make him look good that he's giving real choice and yet there's no substance in what he's implying they should do. REPENT.

​

 

[jeremiah1five]

No control.
Salvation is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9.)
Man is passive in His redemption.
He is in bondage to sin. Saul likens it to slavery and Jesus said a man will have only one master.
The thief (sin) comes to steal, kill and destroy.
A stronger man will bind the strong man (sin) before He can pilfer his goods.
This, Christ did on His cross at Calvary.
It was the Father's Plan.
The Son implemented the Plan.
Ghe Holy Spirit in the world today for His ministry is to apply the Plan.

 

[Eleazar]

The way it worked for me was I heard the truth and the truth set me free. When I heard the gospel truth Of who Jesus was I was set free and able to believe in him. God applied his grace to my life And I put my faith and trust in him. Best decision I ever made And I thank him for enableing me to make that decision. I decided to follow Jesus, No turning back!

 

[brightfame52]

Dwight - I'm sorry you're fooled by Calvinism, a false teaching which has done tremendous damage in the body of Christ. A God who saves only the elect and damns the rest is not the God of the Bible. He is not willing that any should perish. If He predestined only certain persons to be saved, then it would actually be cruel of Him to rebuke the lost for their sin of rejecting Him, because He made them to be lost - they had no choice. Yet the scripture is FILLED with Him telling ALL people to repent and believe, to turn from their sins and be saved. But if it's impossible for those who He predestined to be lost, to even get saved, then He is a cruel God, allowing them NO choice whatsoever.
The God of the Bible, the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT cruel, He is slow to anger, abounding in mercy for all who call on Him. "For God so loved THE WORLD (not just the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM (not just the elect) shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
Calvinism is crushed by that verse alone.

The true elect is Jesus Himself. He is also the true Israel, the Israel of God, as Paul puts it. All those who are CHOOSE TO BE IN HIM become the elect. " ... to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (Jesus)." Those who choose to not be IN HIM are NOT ELECT. Ephesians 1:6

Paul tells us that the true seed of Abraham is Jesus. Galatians 3:16 " 'And to your seed', that is, Christ." Those who choose to believe in Jesus BECOME the seed of Abraham, the ELECT.
"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:29

So you see, ALL men have the opportunity, and can make the choice to BECOME PART OF THE ELECT, THAT IS, PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST.

By the way, are YOU part of the ELECT, according to your Calvinist doctrine? You'll NEVER KNOW UNTIL YOU DIE, but then it will be too late. The Bible, on the other hand, teaches us that we can KNOW if we are saved or not: "We KNOW that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren." 1 John3:14

"By this we KNOW that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." 1 John 4:13
"We KNOW that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may KNOW Him who is true; and we ARE IN HIM who is true, IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE." 1 John 5:20-21

Again, man by nature has a nature of disobedience, he cant change it, so he cant obey Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

A child of disobedience cant stop being a child of obedience. Can a lion stop being a lion, no its his nature to be a lion

 

[civic]

Again, man by nature has a nature of disobedience, he cant change it, so he cant obey Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

A child of disobedience cant stop being a child of obedience. Can a lion stop being a lion, no its his nature to be a lion

Do you ever sin ?
Does your flesh still exist ?

 

[Aeliana]

A child of disobedience cant stop being a child of obedience. Can a lion stop being a lion, no its his nature to be a lion

Actually when you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior you step out of the darkness and into the light.

But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from every sin. (1 John 1:7)

Walking in the light means walking as Christ walked while here on earth—seeking to imitate His life style in all that we do. When we walk in the light, our paths become illuminated and purposeful, and there is a glow of warmth and love in our lives that makes us want to care for the needs of others. This life of love is not merely a soft sentimental feeling—but rather a life of action.

Your A new creation, the old man is dead. Jesus takes away our sin nature. We're clean from the inside out... salvation...that's what I'm talking about.

 

[synergy]

Again, man by nature has a nature of disobedience, he cant change it, so he cant obey Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

A child of disobedience cant stop being a child of obedience. Can a lion stop being a lion, no its his nature to be a lion

So what is Paul's solution to this state of affairs? Should one sit back and hope one gets regenerated or should one follow what Paul wrote below (Rom 10:8-13):

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Notice that it is not regeneration that initiates our confession and belief in Christ. Hearing the word of faith and believing it does the initiating. Calvinism flies in the face of Romans.

 

[Complete]

Actually when you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior you step out of the darkness and into the light.

But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from every sin. (1 John 1:7)

Walking in the light means walking as Christ walked while here on earth—seeking to imitate His life style in all that we do. When we walk in the light, our paths become illuminated and purposeful, and there is a glow of warmth and love in our lives that makes us want to care for the needs of others. This life of love is not merely a soft sentimental feeling—but rather a life of action.

Your A new creation, the old man is dead. Jesus takes away our sin nature. We're clean from the inside out... salvation...that's what I'm talking about.

Hello @Aeliana,

Yes, praise God! The believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is brought out of the darkness of ignorance and unbelief, into the light of the knowledge of God. His sins have been forgiven, and he has been placed, 'in Christ': The righteousness of God has been imputed to him, and He has been accepted in the Beloved. In God's sight he is now holy and without blame, and made meet for the inheritance of the saints in light.

He walks now in newness of life before the Father, having, in God's sight, died with Christ, been buried, quickened and raised with Christ, and is now seated, in Christ, at God's right hand, in spirit. That is the believers 'standing' before God.

In the flesh he now lives with the consciousness that he is not His own, that he was bought with a price, and he now seeks to walk in a manner that is pleasing to his Heavenly Father. He effectively has two natures now, the flesh and the spirit, and he has a choice as to which one he chooses to walks in: and he will on times fail, but God has assured him, that if he confesses his sin, God is faithful and just, and will forgive him his sin, and cleanse him from all unrighteousness. This is the believers 'state,' while in the body of flesh : but nothing can separate him from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus His Lord and Saviour.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[brightfame52]

Actually when you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior you step out of the darkness and into the light.

But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from every sin. (1 John 1:7)

Walking in the light means walking as Christ walked while here on earth—seeking to imitate His life style in all that we do. When we walk in the light, our paths become illuminated and purposeful, and there is a glow of warmth and love in our lives that makes us want to care for the needs of others. This life of love is not merely a soft sentimental feeling—but rather a life of action.

Your A new creation, the old man is dead. Jesus takes away our sin nature. We're clean from the inside out... salvation...that's what I'm talking about.

Again,

A child of disobedience cant stop being a child of disobedience. Can a lion stop being a lion, no its his nature to be a lion

 

[brightfame52]

So what is Paul's solution to this state of affairs? Should one sit back and hope one gets regenerated or should one follow what Paul wrote below (Rom 10:8-13):

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Notice that it is not regeneration that initiates our confession and belief in Christ. Hearing the word of faith and believing it does the initiating. Calvinism flies in the face of Romans.

Its not Pauls solution, its Gods

 

[synergy]

Its not Pauls solution, its Gods

Do you accept that solution?

 

[Aeliana]

Again,

A child of disobedience cant stop being a child of disobedience. Can a lion stop being a lion, no its his nature to be a lion

I don't know where you're getting your information but "children of disobedience" Isn't in the bible.

Paul mentions sons of disobedience in Ephesians. I have 3 Grown up sons, they're not children.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved... (Ephesians 2:1-5 ESV)

In this passage, sons of disobedience is connected to believers before they were saved. It speaks about man's nature before he is born again/regenerated.

And you're lion question has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you accept that solution?

What I believe is posted throughout this thread.

 

[brightfame52]

I don't know where you're getting your information but "children of disobedience" Isn't in the bible.

Paul mentions sons of disobedience in Ephesians. I have 3 Grown up sons, they're not children.



In this passage, sons of disobedience is connected to believers before they were saved. It speaks about man's nature before he is born again/regenerated.

And you're lion question has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

Sons of disobedience, also called the children of disobedience Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

They cant stop being disobedient, its their nature, and they dont even know it.

 

[Aeliana]

Sons of disobedience, also called the children of disobedience Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

They cant stop being disobedient, its their nature, and they dont even know it.

Oh they know it all right. And they are without excuse. They are fully aware of God’s righteous decree.

For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification], [Ps. 19:1-4.]
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],
25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it). [Jer. 2:11.]
26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another—men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.
28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,
29 Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, iniquity, grasping and covetous greed, and malice. [They were] full of envy and jealousy, murder, strife, deceit and treachery, ill will and cruel ways. [They were] secret backbiters and gossipers,
30 Slanderers, hateful to and hating God, full of insolence, arrogance, [and] boasting; inventors of new forms of evil, disobedient and undutiful to parents.
31 [They were] without understanding, conscienceless and faithless, heartless and loveless [and] merciless.
32 Though they are fully aware of God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.

 

[brightfame52]

Oh they know it all right. And they are without excuse. They are fully aware of God’s righteous decree.

For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification], [Ps. 19:1-4.]
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],
25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it). [Jer. 2:11.]
26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another—men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.
28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,
29 Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, iniquity, grasping and covetous greed, and malice. [They were] full of envy and jealousy, murder, strife, deceit and treachery, ill will and cruel ways. [They were] secret backbiters and gossipers,
30 Slanderers, hateful to and hating God, full of insolence, arrogance, [and] boasting; inventors of new forms of evil, disobedient and undutiful to parents.
31 [They were] without understanding, conscienceless and faithless, heartless and loveless [and] merciless.
32 Though they are fully aware of God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.

No they dont know, like the story of the Pharisee and Publican in :lk 18:9-14

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Do you think that Pharisee knew he was wicked and disobedient before God ?