"Works Salvation"

[Seabass]

I don't believe this interpretation you are promoting, although I have heard it promoted by some of this world's religious sects. It makes no sense that Jesus would quote Moses and the Prophets, tell us not to even "Think" that HE came to destroy the Law and Prophets HE taught exclusively from, tell His Disciples to listen to Moses being read in the Temple, and observe all he said to do, and used Moses and the Prophets to show His Disciples the Prophesies regarding Him, only to promote the rejection of Moses and the Prophets after His death.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Please consider the following about Peter and your preaching that Peter was trying to put Jesus and Moses on the same level.

Matt. 16: 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mat. 17: 1 "And after six days" Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

To believe you, I would have to believe that Peter forgot in 6 days, what the Holy Spirit has placed in his heart and mind, 6 days earlier regarding who Jesus was. Why would I do that?


I would ask you another question which I hope again, that you will consider and then answer. The Spirit on Jesus, the man Moses and the man Elijah, Are they not the SAME "ONE" Spirit? Why would there be three separate Tabernacles for these men, all of whom God chose and sent, rising early and sending them?

The vision was not for the purpose of Separating those Prophets God Sent to us, who had the Spirit of Christ on them, from His Son, and creating a division between God and His Son. That is what the prince of this world does. Not the Jesus of the Bible who tells us He and His Father are One. This would mean HE and His Father were ONE when HE was "up where HE was before" as well, yes?

When Jesus was alive on earth during His peroanl ministry the OT law was still in effect (Heb 9:16,17) and Christ was under the OT law Himself which He kept perfectly. Yet at the same time Christ was prepearing the people for His NT law to come into effect and the OT law would go away (Matt 5:19ff) ...."But I say unto you". Christ said this phrase a few time for He had been given all power and authority on earth to make the cahnge from the OT to NT.


The fact a voice came from heaven telling Peter, a Jew, to hear ye Him- Christ is further proof the OT law was going to be taken away. No NT Christian is ever told to hear ye Moses and the Prophets for Moses and the Prophets cannot save, do not have the words of life, cannot give rest unto people's souls....only Christ. Rom 8:1 only IN CHRIST JESUS is there no condemnation for the OT law did condemned and showed no mercy.

So I do not agree that Jesus Moses and the Prophets are all the same one Spirit.

Lk 9:33ff
"And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."

Peter did not understand, was wrong in asking to build a tabernacle for all 3.

"Peter’s ignorance was in supposing that his being on the mountain in company with Moses, Elijah and Jesus was in any manner better than being on the mountain with Jesus only. It is not Jesus AND someone else, or anything else, that blesses men; it is Jesus only. " (Coffman Comm.)

"By thus speaking, Peter placed Jesus upon the same level with Moses and Elijah--all three being worthy of a booth.......
This command (hear ye Him) contains the chief significance of the entire scene. Spoken in the presence of Moses and Elijah, it gave Jesus that pre-eminence which a son has over servants. He is to be heard. His words have pre-eminence over those of the lawgiver and the prophet ( Hebrews 1:1-2) ...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
(McGarvey Comm)

Christ speaks to me in these last days, not Moses nor the Prophets for they spoke in the past to the Jews. Moses and the Prophets are Christ's servants not His equals.

 

[Seabass]

Again, that is popular religious philosophy promoted by the religions of this world God placed us in, religions Jesus and Paul warned us about.

What does the rest of the story say?

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things." 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Jesus most surely did Delegate to His Body what to believe and what to practice. And they denied themselves, and "Yielded Themselves" servants to obey God as Paul promotes. But modern religions, "who come in Christ's Name", just as Jesus Prophesied have done to His Words what they did to Moses and the Prophets. The Jesus "of the Bible" tries to show you this, but religious tradition in a powerful influence.

Luke 16: 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And again;

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The religious sects of this world today, just as in the world Jesus was placed in, have rejected God's Authority over them, refusing to Glorify Him as God. The Jesus of the Bible knew these religions would come in His Name and continue to promote the rejection of God Righteousness revealed to us in the Law and Prophets. Knowing His people would be bombarded with such worldly religions and religious traditions of men, He gave us several warnings.

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

All has not yet been fulfilled, because HE has not yet returned. If Jesus doesn't return, there is no Salvation.

If men believed the Christ "of the Bible", they would listen to Moses and the Prophets as He instructed.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If a man believed in the Apostles this same Christ appointed as teachers, they would do what they instruct.

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye "were" the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Where do we find the definition of Sin?

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. (Peter speaks to this "Yoke" in Acts 15)

And again.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture (Which Jesus Himself said cannot be broken) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And what "Good Works" are these?

Eph. 2: 9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I find absolutely nothing in the NT that tells me to listen to Moses or the Prophets.

I only listen to Christ and His Apostles and will not go back to the OT law. A verse I have cited a few times is Rom 7:1ff. Paul here says it is sinful for a Christian to go back to the OT law and uses the institution of marriage to make his point.

If a woman already has a husband and she marries another she is an adulteress for having two husbands at the same time.

But if the first husband is dead she is freed from the law to marry another man.

Paul's point is a Christian is married to Christ and His NT so if the Christian goes back to the OT to keep it he tries then to also marry himself to Moses and his law and is committing spitiual adultery against Christ for marrying himself to Moses and his law. But since Christ took away the OT law freeing me from that OT law then I am free to marry Christ and not commit spiritual adultery.

The 2 husbands actually represents the two laws, the first husband is the OT law and the second is CHrist and His NT. If one is married to both then one is a spiiritual adultery as the woman married to both husbands at the same time. But if the first husband be dead, that is, the first law the OT law be dead which it is for Christ took it out of the way making it inactive ineefective, then I am free to marry to second husband Jesus Christ and not commit spiritual adultery trying to keep two laws at the same time.

A reason we have Paul saying this in Rom 7 and the Hebrew epistle is because there were Jews who converted to NT Christianity but they still tried to hold on to the OT law and not let go of it. There were even false Judaizing teachers (Acts 15) trying to say the Gentiles could not be saved unless they go back and keep the OT law. The Jews in the book of Hebrews were warned about backslideing from NT Christianity back into Judaism and become lost.

There were some Christians in Galatia they were led astray away from the NT back to the OT thinking they would be jsutified by keeping the OT law and they were accused by Paul of following a false gospel, they had wuit obeying the truth and fallen from grace. A reason why Paul said they has fallen from grace is because they left the NT system of faith that teaches justification by grace and taken back to the OT law that required flawless sinless law keeping to be justified by that law which Paul tells them they could not do. Gal 3 Paul clearly shows the failure of the OT law to justify. Heb 10 for if that OT and its sacrifices could totally justify then no need for Christ's sacrifice and no need for the NT gospel.

 

[Doug Brents]

Repentance.. a change of mind, heart.. happens at belief on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Wrong. It is completely possible to believe in Jesus and not change your way of life; "Christian homosexuals" (an oxymoron if ever there was one) do it all the time. But homosexuals will not enter the Kingdom of God.

Confession would also be part.of belief in Jesus.

Wrong again. Confession of Jesus as Lord must be done "with the mouth" (Rom 10:9-10), and publicly (Matt 10:32). That is not part of "intellectual assent" (belief).

It's going from unbelief to belief in Jesus that saves...not any commitment to a set of behaviours for Jesus.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be forgiven sins and given eternal life includes repent.. and is repent.

When God repented his action to discipline Israel ... That was a change of mind..not a discontinue of works of behaviour.

So repent carries this meaning of a change of mind, heart. Not a promise to discontinue in sin.

Wow, that is SO wrong. Repentance is a turn from a life of sin to a life of following Christ. If there is no behavior change, then repentance didn't really happen (John 14:15, Acts 3:19).

Before salvation... A sinner is spiritually dead. There is nothing they can do behaviour wise to attain salvation. They can be drawn to believe on Jesus Christ.. by His grace, but earning salvation is putting 'perfume on a corpse '

Repentance and confession of Jesus as Lord and baptism do not "earn" salvation. They are not meritorious works. They are actions that are commanded by God that lead to receiving salvation. There is no merit in obeying your Lord (Luke 17:9-10). But there is an eternal consequence to not obeying Him.

 

[Studyman]

No, not just the priesthood, but the ENTIRE Law. Yes, the priesthood changed from Levi to Jesus (and all who are in the Church are priests). But also the commandments handed down at Sinai and all that came before it. Circumcision (a commandment as far back as Abraham) was canceled and removed as a requirement in the New Covenant.

In this world's religions, this is true. But in the Body of Christ, it is not true.

Phil. 3: 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

So once again, this world's religious philosophy that you have adopted and are now promoting, "Circumcision (a commandment as far back as Abraham) was canceled and removed as a requirement in the New Covenant" Is proven again as non-Biblical.

My issue with the philosophies of this world's religions that you are promoting, if founded on what the scriptures actually say.

Absolutely, the definition of sin has not changed. And most of what was sin before is still sin today. But many things that were sin (eating pork or shellfish, not keeping the sabbath, etc.) are not sin anymore.

It's not just these Judgments of God that the religions of this world have rejected and deemed No Longer Sin. By "works" they also teach that creating images of God in the likeness of a handsome man is not Sin. And creating high days founded on ancient pagan festivals is not sin. And turning God's Word into a profitable religious business is also not Sin. And rejecting and teaching against the "Feasts of the Lord" is not sin.

Like the Pharisees, you advocate for the transgression of God's Commandments by popular religious tradition. The Jesus "of the Bible" didn't promote this popular religious philosophy, but "MANY" who come in His Name, certainly do..

Very good. Now, whose commandments is it that we must keep? The Law of Moses that came at Mt Sinai? or Jesus' commandments in the New Covenant? "HIS", "HIM", and "HE" is Jesus. It is His commandments in the New Covenant that we must keep, not the commandments in the Old Covenant that came from Mt Sinai.

It is you that place the wall of separation between the Christ of the Bible, and HIS Father who sent Him. Not God, and not Jesus.

To reject God and His Judgments, is to reject the Christ "of the Bible".

Wrong. You have things out of order. God does not give Jesus to those who are truly repentant. He gave Jesus first, and those who repent and obey Him receive forgiveness also. You are right that those who call Jesus Lord but reject the Father do not really know Jesus. But we do not know the Father through keeping the Old Law. We know the Father through obedience to Jesus (John 14:7).

In the religion of the world you have adopted, this might be true. But Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise men, were given to Jesus, and Jesus to them. You can read this undeniable biblical Truth in your own Bible. Caleb and Joshua, were also given to the Christ, and the Christ given to them.

Num. 14: 24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

To preach to the world that Abraham, Noah, Caleb, Joshua, Zacharias, Simeon and Anna were not God's Children, with the Spirit of Christ in them is simply foolishness. This is why I separate myself from this world's religions, and promote that other's also, might consider the warning of the Jesus "of the Bible" regarding the "many" who come in His Name.

No, what you advocate for is what Paul taught against: going back to submit ourselves to the Old Covenant in the hopes of earning righteousness from keeping the Law, instead of submitting ourselves to the mercy found in Jesus.

Now you are just being silly. Paul didn't advocate returning to the Old Priesthood for justification, and neither do I. Our repentance is towards God. We are to "Turn to God". This is possible because of what His Son did for us. I wish you wouold listen to the Jesus "of the bible" more, and this world's religions less.

John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sadly, men have created an image of God in the likeness of some random handsome man, and refuse to Glorify God, "As God". You can read about this in Romans 1. The end result of this behavior, is spelled out by Paul.

Rom. 1: 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (The handsome image of God they created) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

It's right there, but a man has to be "Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness", before God opens their eyes.

If you attempt to keep the Law for righteousness sake, then Jesus is worthless to you,

Yes, Jesus knew men would be preaching this nonsense, and has prepared an answer for me when they come.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If you understood that the Pharisees were trying to be made righteous by the "works" of the Levitical Priesthood, and not by walking in the "Good Works God before Ordained that we should walk in them, your would be saying such foolishness.

Consider what the Holy One of Israel tries to tell you through the God inspired Holy Scriptures, if you could only hear Him.

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

This is describing the Pharisees, Yes? So what does Israel do?

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

I am afraid that you are so intent on defending your adopted religion, that you will refuse to "SEE" what is written here. This is no different than the Pharisees rejecting God's Laws by their own religious traditions, then relying on the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" to justify them.

What does God tell them?

16 Wash you, make you clean (Walk in God's Righteousness, not your own) put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Jesus tries to tell you, but you can't hear Him.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

and you have no hope of salvation except through perfect keeping of ALL of the Laws in the Old Covenant. How's that working out for you?

So far trusting God and HIS Son over the religions of this world have freed me from them. I am not snared by the religion's of this world, who transgresses God's commandments by their own religious traditions. I have been Freed from the sin and deception promoted by the "Many" who come in Christ's Name. While it is surely a path less travelled, and there is certainly a cost, and I was truly broken for a time, I am become a new man, not like I was "Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

Am I perfect? Goodness no. "but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

You really have a major hang up with the "religious businesses of the world" thing.

So did Jesus. The only time HE got physically angry to the point of going into their manmade shrines of worship, and tipping the tables over, is when they were using the sacrifices of the Priesthood for justification, as a marketing strategy to create a religious business which created wealth and power for them over the masses. They promoted that men could not inherit the Kingdom, unless they went to them for absolution. They competed against the Sadducees for the tithes which they used for themselves. The teaching of Jesus would destroy this cash cow for them, along with their power and status over others. So they Killed Him.

The RCC rejected some of their religious traditions but adopted their rejection of God's commandments and Judgments and adopted the same marketing strategy of selling salvation, and competing against other religions for tithes and donations, without which their religious business could not survive.

Who cares about the businesses of the world? We are talking about Scripture and what God commands, not what people, businesses, or religions teach. Forget about them, and lets talk about what Scripture says.

So far, you are only promoting what this world's religions promote, not what the scriptures say. This is why I reply to you in disagreement.

 

[Doug Brents]

Again, this is just foolishness to say that Everything Prophesied about the Christ was "Finished" on the Cross.

Not everything that was prophesied about Him was fulfilled. But the Law was.
Jesus said, "Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!"
He did not say that the Prophets had to be fulfilled, only the Law.

He fulfilled part of the Prophesy, regarding HIS becoming a Man, but there is so much more to come. If HE doesn't advocate between God and me, as prophesied, how do I grow in the knowledge of God? If He doesn't return to raise the dead, how am I raised from the dead? If HE doesn't bring a New Heaven and a New Earth wherein righteousness dwells, then what was the purpose of promising it?

The same heaven and the same earth that HE walked on and under, is the same heaven and earth I walk on and under. It still remains. This is undeniable Fact.

Now I get how seductive it is to promote a religion where Jesus has already done it all for whoever calls Him Lord. And this marketing strategy has been used to create the largest, most powerful, wealthiest religious businesses this world has ever seen. The high days they have created promote staggering sales and profits for the merchants of this world. And the image of God they have created is acknowledged and revered by billions in a world that is supposed to be the enemy of God.

So I understand how seductive and powerful these world's religions are. Nevertheless, I'm sticking to the Christ "of the Bible" AND God's instruction in Righteousness. This is what I advocate.

You advocate the Old Covenant. It is dead. It was fulfilled, completed, made obsolete, and removed. Keep it if you want, but the only thing to be found in the Old Covenant is eternal death.

Again, who is teaching you this foolishness? The Law and Prophets, through the "Feasts of the Lord", Prophesy of God's Salvation for men. Passover is the very beginning of His Salvation, not the end as you promote.

Passover was the celebration of the deliverance from Egypt. Communion is the renewal of Passover in the New Covenant to celebrate our deliverance through Jesus from Sin. Passover was a shadow of the real Communion, just as the Temple in Jerusalem was a shadow of the real Temple in Heaven, the High Priest of the Levites was a shadow of the real High Priest that is Christ, etc.

There is the journey of God's people coming out of sin, (Unleavened bread) Pentecost representing the "first fruits of the Begotten children of God.", Feast of Trumpets represents the 2nd coming of Christ, Atonement, the putting away of Satan, Tabernacles represents the Children of God reigning with Christ, and the "Last great Day", White Throne Judgment where all who died in ignorance will get their fair trial to Salvation.

Yes, the imagery of Christ can be seen in every one of those feasts because they were the foreshadowing of Him, but please, show me where the commandment is in the New Covenant that commands us to keep those feasts. It is not there.

This is true, God's Law is not the Law you have "Yielded Yourself" a servant to obey. But it was for the Body of the Christ of the Bible. That is why I replied to your post in the first place.

Ahh, so you are calling me a pagan Satan worshiper? Thank you for showing your true colors.
No, I worship the God of Heaven who created the world, gave us the Old Covenant to lead us to Christ, and gave His Son as the Christ for our salvation.

Again, this is your religion, not the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible", in my view.

Then your view is wrong, because the God of the Bible told us that the Old Covenant was temporary, and that He would make a New Covenant with us.

God's Sabbath was "made for man", according to this same Christ.

Yes, the sabbath was made for man, and it is still a good thing to do to keep it. But it is not a commandment today. There was no commandment to keep the sabbath from Creation to Sinai, and there is not a commandment to keep it from the Cross forward.

WE still offer Sacrifices to God in "HIS TEMPLE", according to Paul.

When was the last time you sacrificed in the Temple in Jerusalem? If you haven't ever sacrificed in the Temple, then you have failed to keep the Old Covenant and are guilty of breaking the whole Law.
But if you are referring to our bodies, then yes, that is His Temple under the New Covenant.

Man is created "after the image of God" and can choose to obey or disobey. A disobedient unclean man can turn to God and be cleansed of his uncleanness. This is undeniable Biblical Fact.

A Goat is not created after the image of God but is judged by God as Clean for food and cannot choose to be unclean. It matters nothing if a man deems it unclean, God has already placed His Judgment on it, and the Goat can do nothing to change it.

A maggot or a swine is also not created after the image of God but is Judged by God as unclean for food. It cannot choose to be clean, it cannot turn to God and pray to be cleansed. It matters nothing if a man deems it clean, God has already placed His Judgment on it, and the maggot or swine can do nothing to change it.

And if God deems it clean? THEN IT IS CLEAN!! And God said to Peter, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." God has made all animals clean and it is no longer sin to eat them. This is not my statement; this is God's! If God had not said it, then I would still be eating a kosher diet like the Jews, but He did say it, and so we are free to sinlessly eat anything we want to eat.

These things are undeniably Biblically true. This world rejects God's Judgments as it hates Him. The religions of this world, who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", also reject the Same Judgments of the Same God.

Many of them do. But I am not one of them. I read the Word, not what people tell me the Word says. And I can read for myself that God has said that we do not have to keep the sabbath to be Holy to Him; we do not need to continue to eat certain things to be Holy to Him; we do not need to worship in a certain place, or have a certain priesthood, or wear particular garments to be Holy to Him. We are Holy in Christ, or not at all.

Jesus said this lust to reject God's Judgments "Comes from within", from the heart. This too, is undeniable Biblical Fact.

According to Acts 15, even a clean animal that is not dispatched properly, "Strangled", becomes unclean. And the Apostles told the Gentile Converts to "Abstain" from consuming them.

I know you will not be persuaded of these things, Jesus said so.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Nevertheless, it is good, in my view, to have the discussions anyway.

Yes, it is good to discuss, because maybe you will see that there is greater freedom in Christ than you currently experience. If you want to remain as you are, then more power to you. But do not condemn me because I see the freedom in Christ that you do not (Rom 14:1-9).
"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person values one day over another, another values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and the one who eats, does so with regard to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat, and he gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."

 

[Studyman]

I find absolutely nothing in the NT that tells me to listen to Moses or the Prophets.

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus did not mention the First and greatest commandment, but surely it is clear HE is Speaking to "God's commandments" even though He didn't mention them all, even the First and Greatest One.

I only listen to Christ and His Apostles and will not go back to the OT law.

How can you "go back" to obeying God's Laws that you never obeyed in the first place?

A verse I have cited a few times is Rom 7:1ff. Paul here says it is sinful for a Christian to go back to the OT law and uses the institution of marriage to make his point.

If a woman already has a husband and she marries another she is an adulteress for having two husbands at the same time.

But if the first husband is dead she is freed from the law to marry another man.

Yes, she was not "joined to the Lord", her first husband was not God. The Pharisees were the harlot, disobedient and rebellious, children of the devil. That was her first husband. Again, if they were not walking in the Commandments of God in the first place, how can they return to walking in the commandments of God?

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Disobedience to God is Sin. That is not acceptable "Fruit" unto God, in my view. Paul just told you in Romans 6;16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, (Married to the Law of Sin) but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

Paul's point is a Christian is married to Christ and His NT so if the Christian goes back to the OT to keep it he tries then to also marry himself to Moses and his law and is committing spitiual adultery against Christ for marrying himself to Moses and his law.

But if a person is "married to Christ" then they are subject to the LAW of her Husband. What was the LAW of Christ? This is where you must deflect, and change the subject to avoid actually discussing what Paul was really talking about. Because you know what the Law of Christ was, but have refuse to be subject to it. While Paul and the Chruch of God under the New Priesthood, did "Yield themselves" servants to obey the Law of their husband. And it truly makes me sad, because you "could" answer my questions, and you "could" engage in and honest, unbiased discussion about what the Scriptures actually say.

But you might leave yourself open to correction. You might expose a darkness that exists in your heart. So you stay away from the Light. I understand this because I was also this same man years ago. What I am advocating now, is that we go to the Light, for the express purpose of exposing the darkness Jesus told us exists there. (John 3: 19-21) You won't find tis in the religions of this world. They want you in darkness, so you will continue to promote them, whichever one you have adopted.

But since Christ took away the OT law freeing me from that OT law then I am free to marry Christ and not commit spiritual adultery.

You were NEVER obedient to, respectful or, or honoring God in His Instruction in righteousness. Abraham was, Caleb was, Gideon was, Shadrack and Abednego was, Rehab was, Zacharias was, Simeon was, anna was, the Wise men were, but you and I "NEVER" were. To say you were a slave to God, and God's Law, and Jesus "Freed you from God and His Law", is foolishness. You know it isn't true. But because you refused to Glorify God, "AS GOD" your heart is darkened. Just as my heart was darkened when I too, refused to Glorify God as God.

This world's religions tell you that you are good to go. This is the same religious philosophy promoted by the Pharisees,

Jer. 23: 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

Jesus warned us of this very thing, and I have posted His Warnings, but you have ignored them. I am sinply saying this is a popular choice of men, but not wise, in my view.

The 2 husbands actually represents the two laws, the first husband is the OT law and the second is CHrist and His NT.

This is truly the heart of "mainstream Christianity", that the Christ didn't come to give us God's Words. That God and His Son are not ONE. And you, through this world's influence, strive to place a wedge between God and His Son. When the truth is, being married to God, is being married to His Son, because they are ONE. There is no separation between them. This is easy to understand by simple observing what Law the Christ Walked in. You preach that Jesus didn't want us to "Know God" and Worship Him in the same way Jesus did, joining ourselves to Him, and being subject to the Law of our husband.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But that is not your religion, because you preach that we are "Free from this God and His instruction". So HE isn't in you.

If one is married to both then one is a spiiritual adultery as the woman married to both husbands at the same time.

You can't be married to sin and deception and married to the Christ at the same Time. A man either "Yields themselves" servants to obey Transgression of God's Commandments, (Sin) which leads to death, or they yield themselves servant to obey God, which leads to Righteousness.

And Paul says the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God.

But if the first husband be dead, that is, the first law the OT law be dead which it is for Christ took it out of the way making it inactive ineefective, then I am free to marry to second husband Jesus Christ and not commit spiritual adultery trying to keep two laws at the same time.

But your first husband is not dead. You are still advocating walking in the Law of your first husband. That is Sin and deception when you walked after the course of this world, and not after Christ, who didn't walk after the course of this world. By your own admission, you refuse to walk in the Law of the Husband you claim to be married to now? But you actually walk in the same Law you served, when you were dead in trespasses and sins.

Look, I understand this means that you were led astray by those "many" religions of this world, who come in Christ's Name. But haven't we all? We can "Come out of them", and place our trust in the Holy Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Thats all I am advocating for.

A reason we have Paul saying this in Rom 7 and the Hebrew epistle is because there were Jews who converted to NT Christianity but they still tried to hold on to the OT law and not let go of it.

Think about what you just said, "there were Jews who converted to NT Christianity". How could this be true? Once saved always saved, Yes? That is mainstream Christianity, is it not? How could Pharisees "convert to NT Christianity" and still be promoting the same religion that the Jesus "of the Bible" said "full well rejected the commandments of God by their own traditions"? Even if they were "Weak in the Flesh", would the disciples not tutor them and include them, according to Paul in Romans 14?

The devil believes in Jesus. It is no surprise to me if it's children also believe in Jesus.

There were even false Judaizing teachers (Acts 15) trying to say the Gentiles could not be saved unless they go back and keep the OT law.

But where did Jesus ever teach you that the Pharisees were walking in OT Law? Where does the Lasw and Prophets tell you the Jews were walking in OT Law? Where does Paul tell you the Pharisees were walking in OT Law?

Rom. 10: 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they "being ignorant" of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have "not submitted" themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Yet you are preaching to the world, that the Jews were walking in God's Righteousness, and trying to get others to do the same.

This is why I asked you "What is a Judaizer" in your religion. Is a Judaizer a man who respects God and "Yields themselves" servant's to obey Him, like Abraham, Caleb, Meshak, Daniel, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men, Peter, Paul. James etc., as the Holy One of Israel, their redeemer the Christ, who became a man and dwelt among men, Yielded Himself a servant to??

Or is a "Judaizer" a man who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", like the Pharisees?

It seems important that you clarify your definition of this word you use..

The Jews in the book of Hebrews were warned about backslideing from NT Christianity back into Judaism and become lost.

This is why it's so important to define Judaism. And what were the Jews "Backsliding into"? Was it not "Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"? Was it not, as the Jesus of the Bible teaches, "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Again, was Jesus a Judaizer in your religion? Or is a Judaizer someone who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, but still works "Iniquity"?

There were some Christians in Galatia they were led astray away from the NT back to the OT thinking they would be jsutified by keeping the OT law and they were accused by Paul of following a false gospel, they had wuit obeying the truth and fallen from grace.

So let me get this right. You are preaching that the Pharisees, who transgressed God's Commandments by their own traditions, who were "Ignorant of God's Righteousness" and had set about to established their own righteousness, who had been given the Oracles of God but didn't believe them, who murdered the Prophets and Stephen, and were given God's Laws through Moses, but did not keep them, who didn't believe Moses, who murdered the Christ, were all the sudden trying to convince the Galatians into keeping God's Laws that Jesus said to keep if one was to Enter Life, Laws that HE Himself walked in?

Can you not see how foolish this popular religious philosophy is?

A reason why Paul said they has fallen from grace is because they left the NT system of faith that teaches justification by grace and taken back to the OT law that required flawless sinless law keeping to be justified by that law which Paul tells them they could not do.

Again, if you had answered my question regarding what the Law said a man who sinned was supposed to do, according to the Old Priesthood Law, you would understand why Paul said to rely on this Law to take away Sin, would be a curse. Those who relied on these Sacrificial Laws to take away sin, would be cursed, because "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." Therefore, if a man relied on this Law, he could never sin, and would be obligated to keep the whole law, because once he sinned, he was cursed as he would never be forgiven because he relied on the Sacrificial Works of the Law. and not the Christ, His Redeemer as it is told him over and over in the Law and Prophets.

Is. 48: 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Gal 3 Paul clearly shows the failure of the OT law to justify. Heb 10 for if that OT and its sacrifices could totally justify then no need for Christ's sacrifice and no need for the NT gospel.

Who obeyed God in the Law and Prophets? Show me ONE example of Faithful man, who is said to be a humble obedient servant of God, that was not Justified of his sins? Just name one. You see, you are snared by this world's religions to promote their religious philosophy. But even a child can read the Holy scriptures, Inspired by God, and see the truth of God that Paul told you, but you can't believe.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I hope you might consider these things in the privacy of your home, when no one is listening but God. I don't care if you ever speak to me again. I just hope you consider what the Scriptures actually say, and the warnings of the Christ, and answer my questions even if only to yourself.

With His Love, SM.

 

[Studyman]

Not everything that was prophesied about Him was fulfilled. But the Law was.
Jesus said, "Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!"
He did not say that the Prophets had to be fulfilled, only the Law.


You advocate the Old Covenant. It is dead. It was fulfilled, completed, made obsolete, and removed. Keep it if you want, but the only thing to be found in the Old Covenant is eternal death.

Passover was the celebration of the deliverance from Egypt. Communion is the renewal of Passover in the New Covenant to celebrate our deliverance through Jesus from Sin. Passover was a shadow of the real Communion, just as the Temple in Jerusalem was a shadow of the real Temple in Heaven, the High Priest of the Levites was a shadow of the real High Priest that is Christ, etc.


Yes, the imagery of Christ can be seen in every one of those feasts because they were the foreshadowing of Him, but please, show me where the commandment is in the New Covenant that commands us to keep those feasts. It is not there.

Ahh, so you are calling me a pagan Satan worshiper? Thank you for showing your true colors.
No, I worship the God of Heaven who created the world, gave us the Old Covenant to lead us to Christ, and gave His Son as the Christ for our salvation.

Then your view is wrong, because the God of the Bible told us that the Old Covenant was temporary, and that He would make a New Covenant with us.

Yes, the sabbath was made for man, and it is still a good thing to do to keep it. But it is not a commandment today. There was no commandment to keep the sabbath from Creation to Sinai, and there is not a commandment to keep it from the Cross forward.

When was the last time you sacrificed in the Temple in Jerusalem? If you haven't ever sacrificed in the Temple, then you have failed to keep the Old Covenant and are guilty of breaking the whole Law.
But if you are referring to our bodies, then yes, that is His Temple under the New Covenant.

And if God deems it clean? THEN IT IS CLEAN!! And God said to Peter, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." God has made all animals clean and it is no longer sin to eat them. This is not my statement; this is God's! If God had not said it, then I would still be eating a kosher diet like the Jews, but He did say it, and so we are free to sinlessly eat anything we want to eat.

Many of them do. But I am not one of them. I read the Word, not what people tell me the Word says. And I can read for myself that God has said that we do not have to keep the sabbath to be Holy to Him; we do not need to continue to eat certain things to be Holy to Him; we do not need to worship in a certain place, or have a certain priesthood, or wear particular garments to be Holy to Him. We are Holy in Christ, or not at all.

Yes, it is good to discuss, because maybe you will see that there is greater freedom in Christ than you currently experience. If you want to remain as you are, then more power to you. But do not condemn me because I see the freedom in Christ that you do not (Rom 14:1-9).
"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person values one day over another, another values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and the one who eats, does so with regard to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat, and he gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."

Like Jesus said, you will not be persuaded. And each must be fully persuaded as to what power we submit to.

But thanks for the lively discussion.

 

[Studyman]

When Jesus was alive on earth during His peroanl ministry the OT law was still in effect (Heb 9:16,17) and Christ was under the OT law Himself which He kept perfectly. Yet at the same time Christ was prepearing the people for His NT law to come into effect and the OT law would go away (Matt 5:19ff) ...."But I say unto you". Christ said this phrase a few time for He had been given all power and authority on earth to make the cahnge from the OT to NT.

Again, because you have been convinced by this world's religions, that Jesus and His Father are not One, you create a separation between them.

To believe your religious philosophy, I would have to believe that the teaching of the "Them of Old Time" that Jesus is rejecting, is God His Father, and Moses, who His Father sent. And not the Corrupt Priests who became "Partial in the law" and led God's People Astray.

In other words, you are preaching here that it was GOD through Moses, that caused Israel to fall. That it was "GOD and MOSES who led Israel Astray.

But if I actually read what Jesus said, I find the exact same teaching in the Law and Prophets. So far, you have refused to address even one question or point I am making. So I'm sure you will also ignore these posts as well. Nevertheless, I'll post them anyway, for others reading along.

Matt. 5: 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Lev. 19: 17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Same thing

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Proverbs 6: 24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman. 25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.

Same exact thing.

Matt. 5: 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, "saving for the cause of fornication", causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Duet. 24: 1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Jer. 3: 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Same exact thing.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Duet. 23: 21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. 22 But if thou shalt forbear to vow, "it shall be no sin in thee."

Exact same thing. Just don't Vow!!!

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Lev. 19: 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Duet. 32: 35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Same thing.

You are free to pit Jesus against His Father and imply that His Father led Israel astray and that Jesus had to come and SAVE us from His Father if you want. This is truly a popular religious deception. But the Scriptures do not teach this.

The fact a voice came from heaven telling Peter, a Jew, to hear ye Him- Christ is further proof the OT law was going to be taken away. No NT Christian is ever told to hear ye Moses and the Prophets for Moses and the Prophets cannot save, do not have the words of life, cannot give rest unto people's souls....only Christ. Rom 8:1 only IN CHRIST JESUS is there no condemnation for the OT law did condemned and showed no mercy.

So I do not agree that Jesus Moses and the Prophets are all the same one Spirit.

I know you can't agree. Nevertheless, the Scriptures say what they say.

1 Pet. 1: 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it (Spirit of Christ) testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Please keep in mind that just because you have been convinced to reject or not believe what is written, doesn't make what is written void.

Lk 9:33ff
"And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."

Peter did not understand, was wrong in asking to build a tabernacle for all 3.

And yet, all 3 were of ONE Tabernacle, of ONE God and of ONE Truth. This is an undeniable Biblical Truth.

Luke 9: 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

Ex. 34: 35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

Ex. 18: 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

You keep forgetting Paul's teaching.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This is the One True God Jesus said to know is eternal life. You demean and discredit Him to your own hurt. Jesus never did such a thing, nor any example of Faith found anywhere in the Inspired Word of God. And yet, the very foundation of this world's religions, "Who call Jesus Lord", who "come in Christ's Name" work 24/7 to convince others that Jesus came to "Free us from God".

Jesus knew you would be promoting this religious philosoiphy, so know this from the foundation of the world, He gave me a warning.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So when I hear men, who come in Christ's Name. preaching that Jesus taught against His Father, or that Moses didn't have the Spirit of Christ in him, nor David, nor Shadrack, Meshak and Abednego, I can understand the purpose of such teaching, and can turn away from it.

"Peter’s ignorance was in supposing that his being on the mountain in company with Moses, Elijah and Jesus was in any manner better than being on the mountain with Jesus only. It is not Jesus AND someone else, or anything else, that blesses men; it is Jesus only. " (Coffman Comm.)

I knew you were getting your religion from someone other than the scriptures. I hope you might consider what the Jesus "of the Bib le" warns about, and place your trust in the Holy Scriptures, not man, "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" as Paul teaches the Body of Christ.

"By thus speaking, Peter placed Jesus upon the same level with Moses and Elijah--all three being worthy of a booth.......
This command (hear ye Him) contains the chief significance of the entire scene. Spoken in the presence of Moses and Elijah, it gave Jesus that pre-eminence which a son has over servants. He is to be heard. His words have pre-eminence over those of the lawgiver and the prophet ( Hebrews 1:1-2) ...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
(McGarvey Comm)

Christ speaks to me in these last days, not Moses nor the Prophets for they spoke in the past to the Jews. Moses and the Prophets are Christ's servants not His equals.

Yes, Moses and the Prophets were Christ's Servants. This is why Jesus said to listen to them. and also why HE said;

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Doug Brents]

In this world's religions, this is true. But in the Body of Christ, it is not true.

Phil. 3: 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

So once again, this world's religious philosophy that you have adopted and are now promoting, "Circumcision (a commandment as far back as Abraham) was canceled and removed as a requirement in the New Covenant" Is proven again as non-Biblical.

WRONG!
"Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." - Gal 5:1-6
"We are the circumcision" is a way of saying "Church", the group called out of the rest of the world to be God's people. It has nothing to do with the physical cutting of the foreskin from a male. Read Phil 3:2, "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the [a]false circumcision;" the "false circumcision" is the circumcision of the OT (cutting the male foreskin off).
No, the true circumcision of the NT is done by the Holy Spirit as Col 2:11 says, "and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ,"

My issue with the philosophies of this world's religions that you are promoting, if founded on what the scriptures actually say.

Sorry, but you are saying what you think they say. But you are missing several key points that I am trying to point out to you.

It's not just these Judgments of God that the religions of this world have rejected and deemed No Longer Sin. By "works" they also teach that creating images of God in the likeness of a handsome man is not Sin.

Creating an image and worshiping it is a sin. But just having an image is not a sin. It is not a sin to wear a cross if that cross helps you to remember Christ on it, and the death He died so that you could live. But if you worship that cross and put your faith and hope in the metal/wood/plastic/whatever, then it becomes an idol and is a sin. But idols can be family, money, a vehicle, a widget, anything that comes between you and God (like the Old Covenant). Even Passover could become an idol if it is not kept in the proper perspective.

And creating high days founded on ancient pagan festivals is not sin.

If you believe that this is a sin, then don't do it. But don't condemn those who have a greater faith than you who do not worship the pagan foundation of the day, but worship God in that day as they do all other days.

And turning God's Word into a profitable religious business is also not Sin.

A preacher is worthy of his hire (1 Tim 5:17-18) "The elders who lead well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while it is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”" No, it is not sin to make your living spreading the Word of God.

And rejecting and teaching against the "Feasts of the Lord" is not sin.

If you believe that you must keep the Feasts of the Old Covenant, then do so with all God's blessing. But again, do not condemn those who have a greater faith than you do who do not keep the Feasts of the Old Covenant but keep the New Covenant feast of Communion.

Like the Pharisees, you advocate for the transgression of God's Commandments by popular religious tradition. The Jesus "of the Bible" didn't promote this popular religious philosophy, but "MANY" who come in His Name, certainly do..

No, I do not promote any "popular religious tradition". I obey Jesus, and the writings of His Apostles from the Holy Spirit. But I keep ALL of their writing in mind, not just the parts that sound easy or that conform to my personal preconceptions.

It is you that place the wall of separation between the Christ of the Bible, and HIS Father who sent Him. Not God, and not Jesus.

To reject God and His Judgments, is to reject the Christ "of the Bible".

No, there is no separation between Jesus and the Father. That is the point. Jesus came to give us the New Covenant that frees us from the Old Covenant. The Old was designed to become obsolete. From the very beginning the Law was planned to lead us to Christ and then end (Jer 31:31).

In the religion of the world you have adopted,

Please quit it with this accusation. I will say one more time: I do not follow any of this world's religions. I am not a baptist, or a catholic, or a presbyterian, or, or, or,.... I am a Christ follower; a member of the Church that was established on Pentecost, has been persecuted for almost 2000 years, and is a very small minority of the total of those who claim to be "Christian" in the world today.

this might be true. But Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise men, were given to Jesus, and Jesus to them. You can read this undeniable biblical Truth in your own Bible. Caleb and Joshua, were also given to the Christ, and the Christ given to them.

Num. 14: 24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

To preach to the world that Abraham, Noah, Caleb, Joshua, Zacharias, Simeon and Anna were not God's Children, with the Spirit of Christ in them is simply foolishness. This is why I separate myself from this world's religions, and promote that other's also, might consider the warning of the Jesus "of the Bible" regarding the "many" who come in His Name.

Everyone of the people you speak of were under the Old Covenant. Yes, they received forgiveness because their hearts were right with God under the Old Covenant, which means that they were repentant, they sought God's righteousness, they were looking for the Christ as a Spiritual savior, not a temporal king. But that has no bearing on our salvation today. Today we must still repent, confess Jesus as our Lord, and be baptized into Him to receive forgiveness of sins.

Now you are just being silly. Paul didn't advocate returning to the Old Priesthood for justification, and neither do I. Our repentance is towards God. We are to "Turn to God". This is possible because of what His Son did for us. I wish you wouold listen to the Jesus "of the bible" more, and this world's religions less.

No, Paul did not teach that, but that is what I hear you preaching: following the Old Covenant Laws, feasts, diet, etc.

Yes, Jesus knew men would be preaching this nonsense, and has prepared an answer for me when they come.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If you understood that the Pharisees were trying to be made righteous by the "works" of the Levitical Priesthood, and not by walking in the "Good Works God before Ordained that we should walk in them, your would be saying such foolishness.

Consider what the Holy One of Israel tries to tell you through the God inspired Holy Scriptures, if you could only hear Him.

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

This is describing the Pharisees, Yes? So what does Israel do?

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

I am afraid that you are so intent on defending your adopted religion, that you will refuse to "SEE" what is written here. This is no different than the Pharisees rejecting God's Laws by their own religious traditions, then relying on the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" to justify them.

What does God tell them?

16 Wash you, make you clean (Walk in God's Righteousness, not your own) put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Jesus tries to tell you, but you can't hear Him.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Oh, I hear you clearly. But you fail to hear God's Word when He says that the OT was temporary, and not meant to last past Christ. Jer 31:31, which is quoted in Heb 8:8, tells us clearly that there will be a New Covenant made that is not like the Old Covenant.

So far trusting God and HIS Son over the religions of this world have freed me from them. I am not snared by the religion's of this world, who transgresses God's commandments by their own religious traditions. I have been Freed from the sin and deception promoted by the "Many" who come in Christ's Name. While it is surely a path less travelled, and there is certainly a cost, and I was truly broken for a time, I am become a new man, not like I was "Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

Am I perfect? Goodness no. "but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

You can quote Scripture all day long, but living to keep the Old Covenant makes Jesus worthless to you. Case closed.

So did Jesus. The only time HE got physically angry to the point of going into their manmade shrines of worship, and tipping the tables over, is when they were using the sacrifices of the Priesthood for justification, as a marketing strategy to create a religious business which created wealth and power for them over the masses. They promoted that men could not inherit the Kingdom, unless they went to them for absolution. They competed against the Sadducees for the tithes which they used for themselves. The teaching of Jesus would destroy this cash cow for them, along with their power and status over others. So they Killed Him.

That is a small part of why they killed Him, but that is not what He was violently opposing. They were using dishonest measures, they were only allowing sacrifices which came from flocks with their brand, they were making the Temple into a marketplace. This is not a condemnation on legitimate business. It is perfectly OK with Christ to run a business, even in His name, that provides a legitimate service that benefits mankind. But your prejudice against "things of this world" extends to things that are now inherently wrong and Christ never condemned.

The RCC rejected some of their religious traditions but adopted their rejection of God's commandments and Judgments and adopted the same marketing strategy of selling salvation, and competing against other religions for tithes and donations, without which their religious business could not survive.

Sure, but the catholic cult is not really a Christian religion, so holding them up as an example is meaningless. Certainly catholics do not hold with righteous Biblical teaching, they are not a Bible based religion. But that does not make things like operating a business, and doing so on Biblical principles, evil or sinful.

So far, you are only promoting what this world's religions promote, not what the scriptures say. This is why I reply to you in disagreement.

Everything I have said can be found in Scripture with proper contextual support and validation. Modern day Christ followers are not bound to the Old Covenant, the Old Law, or anything that came before Christ, because in Christ we are made free from the Law of sin and death, and bound to Christ. Study a little more in the passages I cited in previous comments and get back to me when you realize the truth.

 

[Dizerner]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

Works is too ambiguous a term, which leads to a lack of clarity from equivocation.

What is meant is "works of the Law," and most people will agree those can't save you.

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

"I thank God I'm not like other men. I do [insert good works here]."

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

It was not a meritorious work, but a non-meritorious work.

This work represents the Work of Christ, the ark was a picture of the atonement of Christ.

We "build" our faith in this atonement, and rest securely inside.

Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny? Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny? Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?

No, that is Calvinism. It is a logical error that all actions mean earning the results.

 

[Studyman]

WRONG!
"Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." - Gal 5:1-6
"We are the circumcision" is a way of saying "Church", the group called out of the rest of the world to be God's people. It has nothing to do with the physical cutting of the foreskin from a male.

Yes, As Moses taught.

Duet. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? 14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. 15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Just as do not muzzle the Oxen was never about the Oxen, It was never about removing loose skin off the penis. Not in Abraham's Time, and not in Moses' Time and not in Paul's Time and not in ours. The Faithful obedient servants of God, "Whose refuge was the Lord", understood this. The religions of this world never have, and never will. But Paul did.

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

If a man removes the loose skin off his penis, but still rejects God's Commandments, Statutes and Judgments, what benefit is that to him? It's stupid to think I can reject God's instruction in righteousness, His Sabbaths, His Judgments, but be accepted by Him if I kill a goat, or cut loose skin off my body parts, or get sprinkled with water that some random man calls holy or am dipped into a tank of water by one of this world's ordained self-proclaimed "Ministers of Righteousness".

This world's religious men keep omitting the Christ's Words regarding repentance for those who, in times past, walked in the course of this world, and were children of disobedience, like the Pharisees. They keep ignoring Paul's words that speak to "Yielding Oneself" servants to Obey God, as opposed to walking in the doctrines and judgments of manmade religions, like the religious sect of the Pharisees, or the RCC, or her many religious daughters.

Read Phil 3:2, "Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the [a]false circumcision;" the "false circumcision" is the circumcision of the OT (cutting the male foreskin off).

No. Abraham was not an evil worker, nor was he a slave to false circumcision. In your religion, in order to preserve it and promote it, you must accuse or imply that the One True God, that Jesus said to know is eternal Life, was promoting a "False circumcision".

He was not. If you believed Moses, you would understand. But if you don't believe Moses, you will not be persuaded, though One rises from the dead. At least according to the Jesus "of the Bible".

No, the true circumcision of the NT is done by the Holy Spirit as Col 2:11 says, "and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ,"

Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Daniel, Shadrack, Gideon, Zacharias, Simeon, the Wise men, were all subject to the same Circumcision as Paul and the Gentiles. The Pharisees were not, nor did they promote it. As The Law and Prophets tells you, if you could only believe them.


Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

You don't understand that "Circumcision" was an outward sign of Abraham's faith "In the One True God". Circumcision of the Flesh is symbolic of the "Outward" Sign of "To whom we Yield Ourselves servant to Obey".

If you could just humble yourself for just 30 seconds and simply think about it. How did men know who were God's Servants, and who were not in the Law and Prophets? To believe you, I would have to believe men had to hold a man down and look upon his Nakedness, to see if HE was God's Servant or not. This is, of course, more foolishness. God's People have always been distinguished by their "Works", not the existence of skin on their private parts. Circumcision of the heart brings faithful outward signs.

The reason why you can't see this, is because you have adopted a popular falsehood about the Pharisees. You have been convinced they were walking in God's Law, or at least striving to walk in God's Law. This insidious lie is the foundation of "many" doctrines, and it infects everything men read from Paul. Once you accept the Truth of the Jesus "of the Bible" regarding the Pharisees, your understanding will change, and you will stop implying such foolish and blasphemous things about the God and Father of the Lord's Christ. Things like God's Laws are the "Yoke of Bondage" that caused Israel to fall. Or that Jesus came to save us from His Father's "Instruction in righteousness". Or God promoted a "False Circumcision" through Moses.

Sorry, but you are saying what you think they say. But you are missing several key points that I am trying to point out to you.

The point you have so far tried to show me, is that Your Particular Religious sect, and the Philosophy it lives by, is the truth, and all other beliefs are not.

Creating an image and worshiping it is a sin.

That's like saying lusting after a woman is OK as long as you don't physically touch her. Here is what God told you, that is, the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, the ONE True God.

Ex. 20: 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

But this world does create and worship an image of God after the likeness of some long-haired handsome man. They preach HE came to abolish this His Father's Laws and bring his own. They reject God's Feast and create their own for the specific purpose of worshipping this image. This world's religions have placed their image, before God. Even preaching to the world that this same God placed unbearable Laws, a Yoke of Bondage on His Own people to destroy them, and this image you promote came to "Save you" from this God and His Burdens.

Now all these things are true, and men select verses, one here and one there to justify this popular religious philosophy. What I promote is that we consider "ALL" that is written, and that we Glorify God, who to this Day Jesus sits at the right Hand of.

When a man does this, he finds a Gospel more in line with what Jesus and Paul promoted. One in which the One True God is not blasphemed and accused of all manner of wickedness but is Glorified. Jesus said His God and my God was looking for people to worship Him. I said, "Pick me"!!

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, As Moses taught.

Duet. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? 14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. 15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Just as do not muzzle the Oxen was never about the Oxen, It was never about removing loose skin off the penis. Not in Abraham's Time, and not in Moses' Time and not in Paul's Time and not in ours. The Faithful obedient servants of God, "Whose refuge was the Lord", understood this. The religions of this world never have, and never will. But Paul did.

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

If a man removes the loose skin off his penis, but still rejects God's Commandments, Statutes and Judgments, what benefit is that to him? It's stupid to think I can reject God's instruction in righteousness, His Sabbaths, His Judgments, but be accepted by Him if I kill a goat, or cut loose skin off my body parts, or get sprinkled with water that some random man calls holy or am dipped into a tank of water by one of this world's ordained self-proclaimed "Ministers of Righteousness".

This world's religious men keep omitting the Christ's Words regarding repentance for those who, in times past, walked in the course of this world, and were children of disobedience, like the Pharisees. They keep ignoring Paul's words that speak to "Yielding Oneself" servants to Obey God, as opposed to walking in the doctrines and judgments of manmade religions, like the religious sect of the Pharisees, or the RCC, or her many religious daughters.

You clearly know well the Scriptures you like, and that teach what you want to hear, but you ignore the passages, many of which I have pointed out to you, that say that we are no longer bound and subject to the Old Covenant Law. OT circumcision was very much about a piece of skin being removed from a man (or a male baby). The more important aspect of it was, as you point out, the circumcision of the heart, but physical circumcision was very much a requirement under the Old Law. Physical Circumcision did not become "nothing" until after Christ's resurrection. Remember, if a man was not circumcised under the Old Law, he was to be cut off from Israel, and not be part of the people of God any more.

Clearly we must yield ourselves to serve God rather than Satan. But we must also yield ourselves to the correct Law of God. The Law from the OT is not the Law of God under which we are bound today.

No. Abraham was not an evil worker, nor was he a slave to false circumcision. In your religion, in order to preserve it and promote it, you must accuse or imply that the One True God, that Jesus said to know is eternal Life, was promoting a "False circumcision".

He was not. If you believed Moses, you would understand. But if you don't believe Moses, you will not be persuaded, though One rises from the dead. At least according to the Jesus "of the Bible".

Yes, I believe Moses, and I believe Jesus. And no, Abraham was not an evil worker (although he did do evil on several occasions), and during his life physical circumcision was not a false circumcision. But under the New Covenant, physical circumcision is the false circumcision.

Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Daniel, Shadrack, Gideon, Zacharias, Simeon, the Wise men, were all subject to the same Circumcision as Paul and the Gentiles. The Pharisees were not, nor did they promote it. As The Law and Prophets tells you, if you could only believe them.

The Wise Men were not Jewish, so they were not subject to circumcision as the other men you mention. They did not know the Law of Moses, nor did they live by it. They were from the East (probably from Babylon, or what it had become), and they probably had Daniel's prophecies from the King's archives that they had read that told them of the time when the King (Jesus) would be born. But all the rest were bound to the physical circumcision requirement that God instructed Abraham to do. Remember, even Moses failed to circumcise his son, and God almost killed him for it.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

You don't understand that "Circumcision" was an outward sign of Abraham's faith "In the One True God". Circumcision of the Flesh is symbolic of the "Outward" Sign of "To whom we Yield Ourselves servant to Obey".

If you could just humble yourself for just 30 seconds and simply think about it. How did men know who were God's Servants, and who were not in the Law and Prophets? To believe you, I would have to believe men had to hold a man down and look upon his Nakedness, to see if HE was God's Servant or not. This is, of course, more foolishness. God's People have always been distinguished by their "Works", not the existence of skin on their private parts. Circumcision of the heart brings faithful outward signs.

Circumcision is both an outward sign (yes, they did see that a man was, or was not, circumcised which is why Paul circumcised Timothy. They did not "hold a man down and look at his nakedness", but public bathing houses and toilets were common in those days (I have seen the ones in Athens) and men would have seen each other in them.) and a spiritual act that the Holy Spirit does during baptism (Col 2:11-12). Physical circumcision is meaningless today, but it was very important to the Jews in the first century and before.

The reason why you can't see this, is because you have adopted a popular falsehood about the Pharisees. You have been convinced they were walking in God's Law, or at least striving to walk in God's Law. This insidious lie is the foundation of "many" doctrines, and it infects everything men read from Paul. Once you accept the Truth of the Jesus "of the Bible" regarding the Pharisees, your understanding will change, and you will stop implying such foolish and blasphemous things about the God and Father of the Lord's Christ. Things like God's Laws are the "Yoke of Bondage" that caused Israel to fall. Or that Jesus came to save us from His Father's "Instruction in righteousness". Or God promoted a "False Circumcision" through Moses.

No, the Pharisees were not walking in God's Law. They had the Law, and had built a hedge around it of man made laws to keep the people from even coming close to sinning. The Law very much was a Good thing, just as a schoolmaster is a good thing while you are in school, but when you are out of school you are no longer under the schoolmaster. Jesus did not come to save us from the Father's Instruction in Righteousness, but to set us free from the Law of Sin and Death. And as said before, physical circumcision was not a "false circumcision" before Christ, but it is a false circumcision today.

The point you have so far tried to show me, is that Your Particular Religious sect, and the Philosophy it lives by, is the truth, and all other beliefs are not.

No, my point is that the Word of God (the Bible) says that Jesus fulfilled the Old Law, and in doing so fulfilled the Old Covenant and made it obsolete. We are now under the New Covenant which contains many of the same "rules" and leads to the same Righteousness, but does not encompass all of the rules and mandates of the Old Law.

That's like saying lusting after a woman is OK as long as you don't physically touch her. Here is what God told you, that is, the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, the ONE True God.

Ex. 20: 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

No, Jesus made it very clear that it is the thought and intention of the heart that matters. Lusting after a woman is just as evil as physically touching her, because you have already touched her in your heart. Exo 20:4 does not mean that we cannot make a statue of a grasshopper. It, taken in context with verse 5, means that we are not to make the statue and then bow down to the statue to serve it. There is nothing wrong with making a statue of a man, or a beast, or a creature (it's called art), but to worship the thing made is the sin (going back to the intent of the heart).

But this world does create and worship an image of God after the likeness of some long-haired handsome man. They preach HE came to abolish this His Father's Laws and bring his own. They reject God's Feast and create their own for the specific purpose of worshipping this image. This world's religions have placed their image, before God. Even preaching to the world that this same God placed unbearable Laws, a Yoke of Bondage on His Own people to destroy them, and this image you promote came to "Save you" from this God and His Burdens.

Now all these things are true, and men select verses, one here and one there to justify this popular religious philosophy. What I promote is that we consider "ALL" that is written, and that we Glorify God, who to this Day Jesus sits at the right Hand of.

When a man does this, he finds a Gospel more in line with what Jesus and Paul promoted. One in which the One True God is not blasphemed and accused of all manner of wickedness but is Glorified. Jesus said His God and my God was looking for people to worship Him. I said, "Pick me"!!

I am glad you said, "pick me!", but He does not just pick people because they say that. They have to obey Him. And following the Old Covenant Law is not obeying Jesus. It is rebellion against Jesus. Matt 5:17 says that Jesus came to fulfill the Law, and on the Cross He completed that fulfillment. So then, in Gal 3:23-26, 4:21-31, and 5:1-6 we see that Christ freed us from the Law of Moses, and gave us the Law of Grace. Then in James 2:10 we are told that if we keep the whole Law but fail in only one point, we are guilty of violating the whole Law, and are thus condemned by the Law, but Christ kept the WHOLE LAW perfectly and so gives us His righteousness in exchange for our sinfulness if we trust in Him (not the Law).

 

[Seabass]

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus did not mention the First and greatest commandment, but surely it is clear HE is Speaking to "God's commandments" even though He didn't mention them all, even the First and Greatest One.



How can you "go back" to obeying God's Laws that you never obeyed in the first place?



Yes, she was not "joined to the Lord", her first husband was not God. The Pharisees were the harlot, disobedient and rebellious, children of the devil. That was her first husband. Again, if they were not walking in the Commandments of God in the first place, how can they return to walking in the commandments of God?

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Disobedience to God is Sin. That is not acceptable "Fruit" unto God, in my view. Paul just told you in Romans 6;16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, (Married to the Law of Sin) but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.



But if a person is "married to Christ" then they are subject to the LAW of her Husband. What was the LAW of Christ? This is where you must deflect, and change the subject to avoid actually discussing what Paul was really talking about. Because you know what the Law of Christ was, but have refuse to be subject to it. While Paul and the Chruch of God under the New Priesthood, did "Yield themselves" servants to obey the Law of their husband. And it truly makes me sad, because you "could" answer my questions, and you "could" engage in and honest, unbiased discussion about what the Scriptures actually say.

But you might leave yourself open to correction. You might expose a darkness that exists in your heart. So you stay away from the Light. I understand this because I was also this same man years ago. What I am advocating now, is that we go to the Light, for the express purpose of exposing the darkness Jesus told us exists there. (John 3: 19-21) You won't find tis in the religions of this world. They want you in darkness, so you will continue to promote them, whichever one you have adopted.




You were NEVER obedient to, respectful or, or honoring God in His Instruction in righteousness. Abraham was, Caleb was, Gideon was, Shadrack and Abednego was, Rehab was, Zacharias was, Simeon was, anna was, the Wise men were, but you and I "NEVER" were. To say you were a slave to God, and God's Law, and Jesus "Freed you from God and His Law", is foolishness. You know it isn't true. But because you refused to Glorify God, "AS GOD" your heart is darkened. Just as my heart was darkened when I too, refused to Glorify God as God.

This world's religions tell you that you are good to go. This is the same religious philosophy promoted by the Pharisees,

Jer. 23: 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

Jesus warned us of this very thing, and I have posted His Warnings, but you have ignored them. I am sinply saying this is a popular choice of men, but not wise, in my view.




This is truly the heart of "mainstream Christianity", that the Christ didn't come to give us God's Words. That God and His Son are not ONE. And you, through this world's influence, strive to place a wedge between God and His Son. When the truth is, being married to God, is being married to His Son, because they are ONE. There is no separation between them. This is easy to understand by simple observing what Law the Christ Walked in. You preach that Jesus didn't want us to "Know God" and Worship Him in the same way Jesus did, joining ourselves to Him, and being subject to the Law of our husband.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But that is not your religion, because you preach that we are "Free from this God and His instruction". So HE isn't in you.




You can't be married to sin and deception and married to the Christ at the same Time. A man either "Yields themselves" servants to obey Transgression of God's Commandments, (Sin) which leads to death, or they yield themselves servant to obey God, which leads to Righteousness.

And Paul says the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God.



But your first husband is not dead. You are still advocating walking in the Law of your first husband. That is Sin and deception when you walked after the course of this world, and not after Christ, who didn't walk after the course of this world. By your own admission, you refuse to walk in the Law of the Husband you claim to be married to now? But you actually walk in the same Law you served, when you were dead in trespasses and sins.

Look, I understand this means that you were led astray by those "many" religions of this world, who come in Christ's Name. But haven't we all? We can "Come out of them", and place our trust in the Holy Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Thats all I am advocating for.



Think about what you just said, "there were Jews who converted to NT Christianity". How could this be true? Once saved always saved, Yes? That is mainstream Christianity, is it not? How could Pharisees "convert to NT Christianity" and still be promoting the same religion that the Jesus "of the Bible" said "full well rejected the commandments of God by their own traditions"? Even if they were "Weak in the Flesh", would the disciples not tutor them and include them, according to Paul in Romans 14?

The devil believes in Jesus. It is no surprise to me if it's children also believe in Jesus.



But where did Jesus ever teach you that the Pharisees were walking in OT Law? Where does the Lasw and Prophets tell you the Jews were walking in OT Law? Where does Paul tell you the Pharisees were walking in OT Law?

Rom. 10: 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they "being ignorant" of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have "not submitted" themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Yet you are preaching to the world, that the Jews were walking in God's Righteousness, and trying to get others to do the same.

This is why I asked you "What is a Judaizer" in your religion. Is a Judaizer a man who respects God and "Yields themselves" servant's to obey Him, like Abraham, Caleb, Meshak, Daniel, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men, Peter, Paul. James etc., as the Holy One of Israel, their redeemer the Christ, who became a man and dwelt among men, Yielded Himself a servant to??

Or is a "Judaizer" a man who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", like the Pharisees?

It seems important that you clarify your definition of this word you use..



This is why it's so important to define Judaism. And what were the Jews "Backsliding into"? Was it not "Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"? Was it not, as the Jesus of the Bible teaches, "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Again, was Jesus a Judaizer in your religion? Or is a Judaizer someone who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, but still works "Iniquity"?



So let me get this right. You are preaching that the Pharisees, who transgressed God's Commandments by their own traditions, who were "Ignorant of God's Righteousness" and had set about to established their own righteousness, who had been given the Oracles of God but didn't believe them, who murdered the Prophets and Stephen, and were given God's Laws through Moses, but did not keep them, who didn't believe Moses, who murdered the Christ, were all the sudden trying to convince the Galatians into keeping God's Laws that Jesus said to keep if one was to Enter Life, Laws that HE Himself walked in?

Can you not see how foolish this popular religious philosophy is?



Again, if you had answered my question regarding what the Law said a man who sinned was supposed to do, according to the Old Priesthood Law, you would understand why Paul said to rely on this Law to take away Sin, would be a curse. Those who relied on these Sacrificial Laws to take away sin, would be cursed, because "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." Therefore, if a man relied on this Law, he could never sin, and would be obligated to keep the whole law, because once he sinned, he was cursed as he would never be forgiven because he relied on the Sacrificial Works of the Law. and not the Christ, His Redeemer as it is told him over and over in the Law and Prophets.

Is. 48: 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:



Who obeyed God in the Law and Prophets? Show me ONE example of Faithful man, who is said to be a humble obedient servant of God, that was not Justified of his sins? Just name one. You see, you are snared by this world's religions to promote their religious philosophy. But even a child can read the Holy scriptures, Inspired by God, and see the truth of God that Paul told you, but you can't believe.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I hope you might consider these things in the privacy of your home, when no one is listening but God. I don't care if you ever speak to me again. I just hope you consider what the Scriptures actually say, and the warnings of the Christ, and answer my questions even if only to yourself.

With His Love, SM.

Many people fail to understand the difference between the OT law and the NT law.

What I have already posted earlier still stands:
1) Christian's delegated authority is Christ and are to listen to Christ not Moses and the Prophets, Mt 17
2) going back to the OT law to find justification is sin, Rom 7
3) Jesus came to earth to replace the OT law with His NT (Eph 2; Col 2) for there had to be a change in law for Christ Himself to be a Priest, Heb 7. Hence Christ did not come to earth to convert men to Judaism but prepare the Jews for the change in law that was to take place. Christ did not come to make NT Christianity a patch to be put on the old garment of Judaism (Mt 9) but replace that old garment altogether. Men do not put new wine in old wineskins likewise Christ was not going to 'pour' His new teachings into the old wineskin of Judaism for the old and new cannot be mixed.
4)

 

[Seabass]

Works is too ambiguous a term, which leads to a lack of clarity from equivocation.

What is meant is "works of the Law," and most people will agree those can't save you.



"I thank God I'm not like other men. I do [insert good works here]."



It was not a meritorious work, but a non-meritorious work.

This work represents the Work of Christ, the ark was a picture of the atonement of Christ.

We "build" our faith in this atonement, and rest securely inside.



No, that is Calvinism. It is a logical error that all actions mean earning the results.

I have found, in general, those who use the term "works salvation" exclude any and all types of work from becoming saved including obedience to the will of God for any work would be an attempt to merit salvation.

Yet Noah's work in building the ark was a work of obedience necessary to receiving God's gracious gift of salvation from the flood, it earned Noah nothing nor made God indebted to Noah.

Obviously all works are not the same as seen in Rom 10:3 where there are types of works that cannot save (doing your OWN will) and a type of work that can save (obeying GOD's will).

 

[Dizerner]

I have found, in genera, those who use the term "works salvation" exclude any and all types of work from becoming saved including obedience to the will of God for any work would be an attempt to merit salvation.

Yet Noah's work in building the ark was a work of obedience necessary to receiving God's gracious gift of salvation from the flood, it earned Noah nothing nor made God indebted to Noah.

Obviously all works are not the same as seen in Rom 10:3 where there are types of works that cannot save (doing your OWN will) and a type of work that can save (obeying GOD's will).

Yes.

I fully accept James' admonition that faith without works is dead.

However we do need to be more vigilantly on guard against self-righteousness and legalism of all kinds.

Our works must not be out of self-effort, self-achievement, nor some demand to produce holiness in our own striving.

Grace is a wonderful thing that takes all of the pressure and fear of not being holy enough, out of our walk.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes.

I fully accept James' admonition that faith without works is dead.

However we do need to be more vigilantly on guard against self-righteousness and legalism of all kinds.

Our works must be be out of self-effort, self-achievement, nor some demand to produce holiness in our own striving.

Grace is a wonderful thing that takes all of the pressure and fear of not being holy enough, out of our walk.

Amen.
It is not out of self-righteousness nor self-will that we are to obey Jesus' command, but out of surrender to His will for our life.

It makes perfect sense to repent (turn toward God away from sin) if we are to become His servant.
It makes perfect sense to call Him Lord, and submit to His Lordship in our life if He is to be our master.
But it makes absolutely no sense to be dunked in physical water to remove the spiritual stain of sin. But that is exactly what He commands (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21), and for our surrender to be complete we must surrender our logic and reasoning to His will as well. The only question that really matters is, "Do these and other passages link water baptism with the reception of salvation?" And the resounding conclusion, if we are honest with our interpretation of Scripture, must be that Scripture does make that link, and that according to Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14 and other passages, salvation is received during water baptism, and not before.

 

[Seabass]

Yes.

I fully accept James' admonition that faith without works is dead.

However we do need to be more vigilantly on guard against self-righteousness and legalism of all kinds.

Our works must be be out of self-effort, self-achievement, nor some demand to produce holiness in our own striving.

Grace is a wonderful thing that takes all of the pressure and fear of not being holy enough, out of our walk.

...and obedience to God is how one avoids self-righteousness. And some people unfortunately try and write off obedience to God as "legalism". Legalsim is a word that gets defined different ways by different people. The Jews were condemned for many things (hypocrisy, replacing the law with their own traditions, etc) but never condemned for keeping the law.

 

[Dizerner]

To think one can avoid self-righteousness by Law-keeping—well that is the very definition of self-righteousness.

MY efforts, MY product, this is what determines how holy I am.

The only way to avoid self-righteousness is the grace of God.

Legalism has a true definition, and that is thinking external actions replace internal attitudes, and putting requirements and rules as a demand on people instead of trusting the grace of God within them.

Thankfully most false religious strongholds still pay lip service to grace, and have some grace working.

But under the name of righteous living, many people can be put into bondage and pride.

 

[Seabass]

To think one can avoid self-righteousness by Law-keeping—well that is the very definition of self-righteousness.

MY efforts, MY product, this is what determines how holy I am.

The only way to avoid self-righteousness is the grace of God.

Legalism has a true definition, and that is thinking external actions replace internal attitudes, and putting requirements and rules as a demand on people instead of trusting the grace of God within them.

Thankfully most false religious strongholds still pay lip service to grace, and have some grace working.

But under the name of righteous living, many people can be put into bondage and pride.

No one can be saved solely on the basis of law keeping for such requires one to keep all the law sinlessly perfect which none can do (Rom 3:20).

Christ's gracious sacrifice on the cross is what makes forgiveness of sins possible but this does not negate the need for continued obedience to God. 1 Jn 1:7 there is required continued obedience in walking in the light whereby all sins are continually washed away by the blood of Christ. Hence forgiveness does not negate obedience but establishes it Rom 3:31.

Paul's point in Rom 6 is because the Christian is saved by grace that does not give the Christian the right to live in sin (disobey God's law) for the Christian has died to sin. And obedience is how one keeps from living, continuing in sin. Hence grace and obedience are not antagonistic to each other as some may claim but go together like hand in glove. Obedience is needed to keep from continuing in sin and dying spiritually (v16) and grace for the times one fails in his obedience. Hence there cannot be salvation by grace alone...no salvation by grace apart from obedience.

 

[Doug Brents]

To think one can avoid self-righteousness by Law-keeping—well that is the very definition of self-righteousness.

MY efforts, MY product, this is what determines how holy I am.

The only way to avoid self-righteousness is the grace of God.

Legalism has a true definition, and that is thinking external actions replace internal attitudes, and putting requirements and rules as a demand on people instead of trusting the grace of God within them.

Thankfully most false religious strongholds still pay lip service to grace, and have some grace working.

But under the name of righteous living, many people can be put into bondage and pride.

This, diz, is a major misunderstanding that so many have today. Grace is the giving of God's gifts to those who obey Him, not that obedience earns the grace, but because God has said that His grace will go to those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

Keeping the commandments of God is neither meritorious nor righteousness-inducing. Notice Jesus' words in the verse below:
Luke 17:10 - "Now which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him after he comes in from the field, ‘Come immediately and recline at the table to eat’? 8 On the contrary, will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’? 9 He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10 So you too, when you do all the things which were commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’"

But, which slave that does not do his master's bidding will not receive punishment? You see, condemnation and punishment for not obeying is a matter of course, but reward for doing what is commanded is not expected or required. God rewards us for doing what we ought to have done because of His grace, but He punishes those who do not do what they ought to have done because that is what they deserve.