"Works Salvation"

[Studyman]

I'm not sure what your point is but;

The law of Moses has nothing to do with NT Christianity. Col 2:14; Heb 7:12

Moses never created even one law. So to make your statement honest and truthful, it should read "The Law of God has nothing to do with Modern Christianity". This is true. This is why I "Came out of her" as the Spirit of Christ advises.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The law of Moses cannot justify. Galatians, Heb 10

I do find it fascinating that you continue to refuse to answer even one of my questions, including what "works of the Law" Moses required before forgiveness. And while it is true that "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins", the Pharisees were still promoting these "works of the Law".

How can a man be justified apart from "Loving God with all your heart, and Love thy neighbor as thyself?"

But sadly, no one of this world's religions, wants to answer the question.

Going back to the OT law looking for justification from it is sinful Rom 7

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jesus Himself said "17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

When asked "which Commandments", did Jesus speak to the sacrificial Laws or God's instruction in righteousness?

What if Jesus and Paul and Peter and Moses, and Isaiah and the Holy One of Israel are telling the truth. And it's this world's religions who come in Christ's Name that Jesus warned us about, who are promoting falsehoods?

Certainly something to consider.

 

[Seabass]

Moses never created even one law. So to make your statement honest and truthful, it should read "The Law of God has nothing to do with Modern Christianity". This is true. This is why I "Came out of her" as the Spirit of Christ advises.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

God gave Moses the OT law but since it was given to Moses it is therefore sometimes referred to as the "law of Moses" (Dan 9:13; Mal 4:4; Lk 24:44; etc).

Hence the OT law of God, the law of Moses or whatever you choose to call it has nothing to do with NT Christianity for the 3 reasons I gave in my last post. It was never in God's purpose this OT law would last but that there would be a change in law. For if the OT law could justufy then there would be no need for Christ's sacrifice and the NT gospel, Heb 10.

Both the OT and NT work on the principle of delegated authority, that is, one obeys authority delegated from God because going against God's delegated authority is sin. In Matthew and Luke, they speak about Christ taking Peter and other disciples with Him to a high mountain where Christ transfigured before them. Peter said let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Luke said Peter did not understand what he was asking, he was trying to put Christ on the same level with Moses and Elias. Then a voice from above says to Peter "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." Moses represents the law of Moses and Elias represents the OT prophets and Peter was told to listen to Christ for Christ is the only one given ALL power, ALL authority to delegate NT beleifs and practices.....not Moses nor the prophets.

Christ gave authority to 12 of His disciples whom He made Apostles and they had delegated authority from heaven/God for they could only bind and loose on earth what has already been bound and loosed IN HEAVEN. Therefore Moses and the prophets are NOT delegated authority for NT Christians. Hence it is sinful to go against NT delegated authority that Christ and His apostles have delegated and go back to the OT law. Paul makes it clear in Rom 7 it is sinful for a Christian to go back to the OT law.

Those Jews who lived under the OT would listen to Moses and the Prophets (Lk 16:29,31) but NT Christians listen to Christ. For Christians to go back to the OT is sin in following the wrong delegated authority in listening to Moses and the Prophets instead of listening to Christ. Again, Christ, not Moses and the Prophets, NOR DAVID delegates NT beliefs, practices, doctrines.

How can a man be justified apart from "Loving God with all your heart, and Love thy neighbor as thyself?"

But sadly, no one of this world's religions, wants to answer the question.

The OT law required animal sacrifices in order for sin to be forgiven. But since the blood of bulls and goats could not give complete, full remission of sins then they had to begiven on a yearly basis. Those sacrifices simply rolled their sins ahead one year henc their sins were always before them. It took the blood of Christ to completely take away those sins. Lk 1. John's parents who lived under that OT law are said to be "blameless" not because they kept the OT law perfectly sinles but because they kepth those OT sacrifices and continued tohave their sins forgiven year by year, hence they were seen as righteous by God having walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord meaning they kept those sacrifices.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jesus Himself said "17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

When asked "which Commandments", did Jesus speak to the sacrificial Laws or God's instruction in righteousness?

What if Jesus and Paul and Peter and Moses, and Isaiah and the Holy One of Israel are telling the truth. And it's this world's religions who come in Christ's Name that Jesus warned us about, who are promoting falsehoods?

Certainly something to consider.

Rom 2:
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

The context of Rom 1 is Paul proving the Gentile had sinned and Rom 2 prove the Jew had sinned hence Paul concludes all (Gentile and Jew) are under sin. THose under sin as Gentile and Jew are in need of justification.

Paul spends the first half or Rom 3 telling us whay does NOT justify and that being the OT law. He spends the last half telling us what can justify the sinning Gentile and Jew that being faith. The OT law was given to the Jew and not the Gentile, hence having that law was a big adavantage to the Jew for it told the Jew where man came from (Gen 1) and it told the Jew what was is sinful (Rom 7:7). The Gentile had no such advantage yet the Gentile was still accountable to God as the Jew. Even though the Jew had the advantage of having the OT law it could not justify them leaving them unjustified as the Jew (Rom 3:9) that OT law left the Jew still under sin. So the OT law is NOT the solution for being under sin for that OT law required perfect flawless sinless law keeping to be justified by it which the Jew could not do no matter how hard they tried.

Rom 3:21
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Here Paul is saying apart from the OT law and its required flawless law keeping to be justified there is NOW, (as opposed to back then under the OT) a way for both Gentile and Jew to be justified and that is by faith. Hence Paul says "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Paul makes a clear distinction between being justified by faith NOW from the deeds of the law, that is, from the deeds of perfect, sinless law keeping that OT required to be justified by it.

Hence being a doer of the OT law in working to keep all of it sinlessly perfect will not justify. Hence the context of Rom 2:13 is this:

Paul is proving the Jews are sinners having already proven the Gentiles are sinners in Rom 1. In proving the Jews are sinners Paul is proving the Jew sinned for the Jew did not keep the OT law given them sinlessly perfect therefore could they not be justified by that OT law.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

The "law" here refers to the OT law and the Gentiles were not given the OT law hence those who "sinned without the law" refers to the Gentiles. The Gentiles did not have the OT law and so they perished without having that law. Those Gentiles were not under the OT law but under a different law and they did not keep that law hence they perished.

'as many as have sinned in the law" refers to the Jews to whom the OT law was given. Those the Jews did possess that OT law it did not provide them protection from condemnation for that OT law required the Jew to keep ALL of it perfectly sinless which they could not do leaving them just as condemned and unjustified as the Gentile. (Rom 3:9)

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The Jews heard the OT law that was given them but they put so much stress on hearing the law and having knowledge of the law they did not do the law thereby neglecting to do the law left them unjustified.

Paul here is not saying a doer of the law is one that keeps it perfectly sinless thereby justified by flawless law keeping.

Rom 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds (flawless, perfect sinless law keeping) of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: because no Jew could keep that OT law perfectly sinless none were justified. Hence the Jews just hearing the OT law but since they did not have a faithful obedience to it left them unjustified,


But a doer of the law refers to one who has a faithful obedience (not a perfect obedience) to it as John's parents therefore they were blameless and God saw them as righteous.

Hence a doer of the law, whether it be the Jew that lived under the OT or a person living under the NT law today, are NOT justified just by hearing apart from a faithful obdience to it. Nor can they be justified by trying to keep the law sinlessly perfect but a simple faithful obdience is all God requires to justify one.

 

[Seabass]

I'm not a Calvinist so I do believe someone has to believe in Jesus before conversion. No salvation before belief. But before conversion... All are sinful . And after. So again .. self effort... following laws. . etc... can do nothing to gain conversion.

It does not matter if one is Calvinist or not, the idea God alone determines who will or will not be saved makes God culpable for the lost. I see from the Bible there is synergism in salvation, both God and man have a role in man's salvation and not monergism where God alone solely decides salvation or condemnation for man.

Man does have a role in his own salvation to "save yourselves" (Acts 2:40) to "purify your souls" ( 1 Pet 1:22) to "cleanse your hands" ye sinners (James 4:8) "cleanse ourselves" ( 2 Cor 7:1)

 

[360watt]

It does not matter if one is Calvinist or not, the idea God alone determines who will or will not be saved makes God culpable for the lost. I see from the Bible there is synergism in salvation, both God and man have a role in man's salvation and not monergism where God alone solely decides salvation or condemnation for man.

Man does have a role in his own salvation to "save yourselves" (Acts 2:40) to "purify your souls" ( 1 Pet 1:22) to "cleanse your hands" ye sinners (James 4:8) "cleanse ourselves" ( 2 Cor 7:1)

But I don't believe in God predetermining who will and who won't be saved. I'm not a calvinist. Calvinists again.. have being converted before you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't believe the bible teaches that.

About the only thing on the TULIP I can agree with is total depravity.. but even then.. not to the extent that a sinner cannot entrust their salvation with Jesus to be saved. Rather than being saved already .. then believe, which is where the Calvinist stands.

Everyone gets a chance to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether He reveals Himself thru creation, or thru someone sharing the gospel to you. Both ways.. an understanding that you are a sinner .. and need forgiveness of sin from God can be understood.

 

[Seabass]

But I don't believe in God predetermining who will and who won't be saved. I'm not a calvinist. Calvinists again.. have being converted before you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't believe the bible teaches that.

About the only thing on the TULIP I can agree with is total depravity.. but even then.. not to the extent that a sinner cannot entrust their salvation with Jesus to be saved. Rather than being saved already .. then believe, which is where the Calvinist stands.

Everyone gets a chance to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether He reveals Himself thru creation, or thru someone sharing the gospel to you. Both ways.. an understanding that you are a sinner .. and need forgiveness of sin from God can be understood.

In post #412 you posted:
"So there is no way any kind of work of effort for God can lead to conversion. It's got to be all God 100 percent saving you, not you ...dead in sin, trying to gain conversion. It just cannot happen."

If salvation is 100% God and 0% man then God is 100% deciding for man those that will be saved and those lost making God 100% culpable for those that are lost.

Yet man does have a role in his own salvation. God provides a pathway for man to be saved but it's up to man to take that pathway. Those that refuse to take that pathway are culpable for their own lost condition.

 

[360watt]

In post #412 you posted:
"So there is no way any kind of work of effort for God can lead to conversion. It's got to be all God 100 percent saving you, not you ...dead in sin, trying to gain conversion. It just cannot happen."

If salvation is 100% God and 0% man then God is 100% deciding for man those that will be saved and those lost making God 100% culpable for those that are lost.

Yet man does have a role in his own salvation. God provides a pathway for man to be saved but it's up to man to take that pathway. Those that refuse to take that pathway are culpable for their own lost condition.

Yeah.. believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is led by the conviction of Jesus on the person's soul. Therefore it still Jesus doing the saving, not yourself doing the saving. But that conviction isn't salvation.. so it isn't salvation before belief.. which is what Calvinism teaches.

 

[Seabass]

Yeah.. believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is led by the conviction of Jesus on the person's soul. Therefore it still Jesus doing the saving, not yourself doing the saving. But that conviction isn't salvation.. so it isn't salvation before belief.. which is what Calvinism teaches.

If Jesus requires you to believe to be saved....and you choose to believe then you did have a role in your own salvation by choosing to believe. If you choose to not believe then you have a role in your own condemnation.

Acts 2 God commands man to repent and be baptized and those who choose to do such are in that sense 'saving themselves" v40 and those who do not are losing themselves. A person is not saving themselves by themselves but saving themselves by taking advantage in doing what God has offered man in being saved.

If you're drowning and I throw you a rope and tell you to grab the rope and save yourself. Then you and I both played a role in your salvation...me by throwing you a rope and you by grabbing it. You did not save youself by yourself but saved yourself by taking advantage of the lifeline offered you.

 

[360watt]

If Jesus requires you to believe to be saved....and you choose to believe then you did have a role in your own salvation by choosing to believe. If you choose to not believe then you have a role in your own condemnation.

Acts 2 God commands man to repent and be baptized and those who choose to do such are in that sense 'saving themselves" v40 and those who do not are losing themselves. A person is not saving themselves by themselves but saving themselves by taking advantage in doing what God has offered man in being saved.

If you're drowning and I throw you a rope and tell you to grab the rope and save yourself. Then you and I both played a role in your salvation...me by throwing you a rope and you by grabbing it. You did not save youself by yourself but saved yourself by taking advantage of the lifeline offered you.

Simply.. Jesus convicts a soul of their need for salvation. They then accept the conviction.. believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again.. and that by believing they have eternal life.

That's the message of salvation all thru John and the rest of the NT.

Following commands can only happen to some one already regenerated. And are not binding on salvation. The only command that is binding on salvation would be 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ '

End

 

[Seabass]

Simply.. Jesus convicts a soul of their need for salvation. They then accept the conviction.. believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again.. and that by believing they have eternal life.

That's the message of salvation all thru John and the rest of the NT.

Following commands can only happen to some one already regenerated. And are not binding on salvation. The only command that is binding on salvation would be 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ '

End

Obedience comes before salvation for God does not save those who live in disobedience, rebellion to His word. Christ is the Author of salvation to all them that obey Him, Heb 5:9.


Earlier you said you are not Calvinist but you use the idea of 'regeneration' as Calvinists do. No one has to be 'regenerated' before they are able to obey. If one must be "regenerated" by God before one can obey as you claim, then those who are disobedient to God are so for God's failure to regenerate them. God has no such culpability.

 

[Doug Brents]

Simply.. Jesus convicts a soul of their need for salvation. They then accept the conviction.. believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again.. and that by believing they have eternal life.

That's the message of salvation all thru John and the rest of the NT.

Following commands can only happen to some one already regenerated. And are not binding on salvation. The only command that is binding on salvation would be 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ '

End

That is not completely correct. Yes, we must believe, but we also must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), and we must also confess Jesus as our Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and we must also be baptized (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38). All of these acts, just like belief of the Gospel, Scripture says lead to our receiving salvation. Belief is not the only thing we must do to receive salvation.

 

[Studyman]

God gave Moses the OT law but since it was given to Moses it is therefore sometimes referred to as the "law of Moses" (Dan 9:13; Mal 4:4; Lk 24:44; etc).

Hence the OT law of God, the law of Moses or whatever you choose to call it has nothing to do with NT Christianity for the 3 reasons I gave in my last post. It was never in God's purpose this OT law would last but that there would be a change in law. For if the OT law could justufy then there would be no need for Christ's sacrifice and the NT gospel, Heb 10.

I agree that modern "Christianity" has rejected God's Laws, His Judgments and His Statutes, in favor of their own religious traditions. So modern religions have nothing to do with God's Laws. This is simply undeniable Truth. But the Church "of God" described in Scriptures did not reject God's Laws, His Judgments and His statutes. Paul instructed them to "Yield themselves" servants to obey God's Laws, and become "Servants to God's righteousness". So my argument is founded in Scriptures which I post, and hope to prompt an open, honest and unbiased discussion about. What I asked you, that you still refuse to even acknowledge, is what "LAW" was required by God through Moses, for the common man to do, if he was found in transgression?

It's a perfectly reasonable question and easy to answer. Why would you refuse to answer it? You don't even have to use your own words; you can quote Moses.

I agree that there is no "LAW" that can take away sin. The "LAW" defines Sin, it doesn't "justify" man once we have broken it. It's important in my view, to point out that the Pharisees were not trying to promote or walk in God's Laws. They too, had "rejected God's Laws, His Judgments and His Statutes by their own religious traditions." Paul said they were trying to be justified by "works of the Law". I asked the question I asked, to identify "what works" in the LAW of God that the Pharisees were promoting to justify themselves and others, given the Jesus "of the Bible" said they "Omitted" the weightier matter of God's Law, and although they had been given the Law of God through Moses, they refused to "keep it", instead they "Full well rejected God's commandments so their could walk in their own religious traditions.

It's a good question, and relevant to this discussion. Why would you not simply answer it?

 

[Studyman]

Both the OT and NT work on the principle of delegated authority, that is, one obeys authority delegated from God because going against God's delegated authority is sin. In Matthew and Luke, they speak about Christ taking Peter and other disciples with Him to a high mountain where Christ transfigured before them. Peter said let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Luke said Peter did not understand what he was asking, he was trying to put Christ on the same level with Moses and Elias. Then a voice from above says to Peter "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." Moses represents the law of Moses and Elias represents the OT prophets and Peter was told to listen to Christ for Christ is the only one given ALL power, ALL authority to delegate NT beleifs and practices.....not Moses nor the prophets.

I don't believe this interpretation you are promoting, although I have heard it promoted by some of this world's religious sects. It makes no sense that Jesus would quote Moses and the Prophets, tell us not to even "Think" that HE came to destroy the Law and Prophets HE taught exclusively from, tell His Disciples to listen to Moses being read in the Temple, and observe all he said to do, and used Moses and the Prophets to show His Disciples the Prophesies regarding Him, only to promote the rejection of Moses and the Prophets after His death.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Please consider the following about Peter and your preaching that Peter was trying to put Jesus and Moses on the same level.

Matt. 16: 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mat. 17: 1 "And after six days" Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

To believe you, I would have to believe that Peter forgot in 6 days, what the Holy Spirit has placed in his heart and mind, 6 days earlier regarding who Jesus was. Why would I do that?


I would ask you another question which I hope again, that you will consider and then answer. The Spirit on Jesus, the man Moses and the man Elijah, Are they not the SAME "ONE" Spirit? Why would there be three separate Tabernacles for these men, all of whom God chose and sent, rising early and sending them?

The vision was not for the purpose of Separating those Prophets God Sent to us, who had the Spirit of Christ on them, from His Son, and creating a division between God and His Son. That is what the prince of this world does. Not the Jesus of the Bible who tells us He and His Father are One. This would mean HE and His Father were ONE when HE was "up where HE was before" as well, yes?

 

[Doug Brents]

What "LAW" was required by God through Moses, for the common man to do, if he was found in transgression?

It's a perfectly reasonable question and easy to answer. Why would you refuse to answer it? You don't even have to use your own words; you can quote Moses.

I agree that there is no "LAW" that can take away sin. The "LAW" defines Sin, it doesn't "justify" man once we have broken it. It's important in my view, to point out that the Pharisees were not trying to promote or walk in God's Laws. They too, had "rejected God's Laws, His Judgments and His Statutes by their own religious traditions." Paul said they were trying to be justified by "works of the Law". I asked the question I asked, to identify "what works" in the LAW of God that the Pharisees were promoting to justify themselves and others, given the Jesus "of the Bible" said they "Omitted" the weightier matter of God's Law, and although they had been given the Law of God through Moses, they refused to "keep it", instead they "Full well rejected God's commandments so their could walk in their own religious traditions.

The command of God in the Law if a person was found in transgression of the Law was to offer sacrifice in the Temple to atone for the guilt of his sin (really just to roll it forward to Christ). But we today are not under that Law. We do not offer sacrifice in the Temple, because we have a better sacrifice as part of a better Covenant with a better Law (Heb 9:1-10:18).

 

[Studyman]

Then a voice from above says to Peter "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." Moses represents the law of Moses and Elias represents the OT prophets and Peter was told to listen to Christ for Christ is the only one given ALL power, ALL authority to delegate NT beleifs and practices.....not Moses nor the prophets.

Again, that is popular religious philosophy promoted by the religions of this world God placed us in, religions Jesus and Paul warned us about.

What does the rest of the story say?

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things." 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Jesus most surely did Delegate to His Body what to believe and what to practice. And they denied themselves, and "Yielded Themselves" servants to obey God as Paul promotes. But modern religions, "who come in Christ's Name", just as Jesus Prophesied have done to His Words what they did to Moses and the Prophets. The Jesus "of the Bible" tries to show you this, but religious tradition in a powerful influence.

Luke 16: 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And again;

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The religious sects of this world today, just as in the world Jesus was placed in, have rejected God's Authority over them, refusing to Glorify Him as God. The Jesus of the Bible knew these religions would come in His Name and continue to promote the rejection of God Righteousness revealed to us in the Law and Prophets. Knowing His people would be bombarded with such worldly religions and religious traditions of men, He gave us several warnings.

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

All has not yet been fulfilled, because HE has not yet returned. If Jesus doesn't return, there is no Salvation.

If men believed the Christ "of the Bible", they would listen to Moses and the Prophets as He instructed.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If a man believed in the Apostles this same Christ appointed as teachers, they would do what they instruct.

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye "were" the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Where do we find the definition of Sin?

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. (Peter speaks to this "Yoke" in Acts 15)

And again.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture (Which Jesus Himself said cannot be broken) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And what "Good Works" are these?

Eph. 2: 9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Doug Brents]

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

All has not yet been fulfilled, because HE has not yet returned. If Jesus doesn't return, there is no Salvation.

All has been fulfilled, because just before He died, Jesus said, "It is FINISHED." His mission, to complete our salvation through the perfect keeping of the Law and fulfilling all righteousness, was finished. He fulfilled the Old Covenant and in doing so ended it. A covenant, like a contract, once all the requirements of it have been fulfilled, has no more power. The second coming of Christ is not a tenant of the Old Covenant, but it is of the New.

If men believed the Christ "of the Bible", they would listen to Moses and the Prophets as He instructed.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If a man believed in the Apostles this same Christ appointed as teachers, they would do what they instruct.

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye "were" the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Where do we find the definition of Sin?

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. (Peter speaks to this "Yoke" in Acts 15)

And again.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture (Which Jesus Himself said cannot be broken) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And what "Good Works" are these?

Eph. 2: 9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes, the Old Covenant is there for us to learn from, and to understand what righteousness looks like, but it is not the Law under which we live today. Only the portions of the Old Law that were restated in the New Covenant are binding on us today: urder (Matt 5:21), adultery (Matt 5:27), theft, homosexuality, lying, greed, idolatry, etc. (1 Cor 6:9-10). But things like keeping the sabbath (Col 2:16), sacrificing in the Temple (Heb 10:11-12), eating the kosher diet (Acts 10:13-15): these things are not included in the New Covenant (actually are expressly excluded) and as such are not binding on us today.

 

[Studyman]

The command of God in the Law if a person was found in transgression of the Law was to offer sacrifice in the Temple to atone for the guilt of his sin (really just to roll it forward to Christ). But we today are not under that Law. We do not offer sacrifice in the Temple, because we have a better sacrifice as part of a better Covenant with a better Law (Heb 9:1-10:18).

Yes, this is the "Works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood that the Pharisees were still promoting, at least their version of it. They, as the Jesus of the Bible tells us, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." but promoted justification of their sins, by engaging in their version of these Priesthood "works of the Law". It was the Priesthood (They corrupted) which gave them their power and wealth.

We have a New Priesthood, prophesied by the Law and Prophets. It was the Priesthood that was prophesied to change. It was this Priesthood covenant God made with Levi, which was "ADDED" by God 430 years after Abraham, that was to be in force, "Till the Seed should come".

God's definition of Sin has remained the same, as also prophesied by Jeremiah.

"After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

One might ask, How do I know if I am in God or Him in me? What about all those deceivers Jesus warned about, "Who come in Christ's Name"? He graciously answers this question as well, for those seeking His Truth.

1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him,

OK Brent, here it is. Here is the Spirit of Christ telling me how I can know if I know God. Remember Jesus' Words now. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So how do I know that I know the One True God?

if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

And of course, this is true just as God said. He will write His Laws on the hearts of His People.

The Jesus of the Bible makes this perfectly clear in Matt. 7.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus told men to repent and "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness". This is how we can know Him. He then, for the truly repentant, gives them to Jesus. Men who come to Jesus, or call Him Lord, Lord, while rejecting the Father, hasn't been given to Him by God, and HE doesn't know them.

What I advocate for is what Paul teaches, that is to "Yield ourselves" Servants to Obey God and become Servants of God's Righteousness through the reconciliation between me and God that Jesus provided.

You will not find this teaching in the religious businesses of this world, because it isn't a good marketing strategy to fill the seats of the manmade shrines of worship they have built. There is a "Cost" to repentance, and the crucifying of the old man. There is no money in promoting this truth.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, this is the "Works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood that the Pharisees were still promoting, at least their version of it. They, as the Jesus of the Bible tells us, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." but promoted justification of their sins, by engaging in their version of these Priesthood "works of the Law". It was the Priesthood (They corrupted) which gave them their power and wealth.

We have a New Priesthood, prophesied by the Law and Prophets. It was the Priesthood that was prophesied to change. It was this Priesthood covenant God made with Levi, which was "ADDED" by God 430 years after Abraham, that was to be in force, "Till the Seed should come".

No, not just the priesthood, but the ENTIRE Law. Yes, the priesthood changed from Levi to Jesus (and all who are in the Church are priests). But also the commandments handed down at Sinai and all that came before it. Circumcision (a commandment as far back as Abraham) was canceled and removed as a requirement in the New Covenant.

God's definition of Sin has remained the same, as also prophesied by Jeremiah.

"After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Absolutely, the definition of sin has not changed. And most of what was sin before is still sin today. But many things that were sin (eating pork or shellfish, not keeping the sabbath, etc.) are not sin anymore.

One might ask, How do I know if I am in God or Him in me? What about all those deceivers Jesus warned about, "Who come in Christ's Name"? He graciously answers this question as well, for those seeking His Truth.

1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him,

OK Brent, here it is. Here is the Spirit of Christ telling me how I can know if I know God. Remember Jesus' Words now. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So how do I know that I know the One True God?

if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Very good. Now, whose commandments is it that we must keep? The Law of Moses that came at Mt Sinai? or Jesus' commandments in the New Covenant? "HIS", "HIM", and "HE" is Jesus. It is His commandments in the New Covenant that we must keep, not the commandments in the Old Covenant that came from Mt Sinai.

And of course, this is true just as God said. He will write His Laws on the hearts of His People.

The Jesus of the Bible makes this perfectly clear in Matt. 7.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus told men to repent and "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness". This is how we can know Him. He then, for the truly repentant, gives them to Jesus. Men who come to Jesus, or call Him Lord, Lord, while rejecting the Father, hasn't been given to Him by God, and HE doesn't know them.

Wrong. You have things out of order. God does not give Jesus to those who are truly repentant. He gave Jesus first, and those who repent and obey Him receive forgiveness also. You are right that those who call Jesus Lord but reject the Father do not really know Jesus. But we do not know the Father through keeping the Old Law. We know the Father through obedience to Jesus (John 14:7).

What I advocate for is what Paul teaches, that is to "Yield ourselves" Servants to Obey God and become Servants of God's Righteousness through the reconciliation between me and God that Jesus provided.

No, what you advocate for is what Paul taught against: going back to submit ourselves to the Old Covenant in the hopes of earning righteousness from keeping the Law, instead of submitting ourselves to the mercy found in Jesus. If you attempt to keep the Law for righteousness sake, then Jesus is worthless to you, and you have no hope of salvation except through perfect keeping of ALL of the Laws in the Old Covenant. How's that working out for you?

You will not find this teaching in the religious businesses of this world, because it isn't a good marketing strategy to fill the seats of the manmade shrines of worship they have built. There is a "Cost" to repentance, and the crucifying of the old man. There is no money in promoting this truth.

You really have a major hang up with the "religious businesses of the world" thing. Who cares about the businesses of the world? We are talking about Scripture and what God commands, not what people, businesses, or religions teach. Forget about them, and lets talk about what Scripture says.

 

[Studyman]

All has been fulfilled, because just before He died, Jesus said, "It is FINISHED."

Again, this is just foolishness to say that Everything Prophesied about the Christ was "Finished" on the Cross. He fulfilled part of the Prophesy, regarding HIS becoming a Man, but there is so much more to come. If HE doesn't advocate between God and me, as prophesied, how do I grow in the knowledge of God? If He doesn't return to raise the dead, how am I raised from the dead? If HE doesn't bring a New Heaven and a New Earth wherein righteousness dwells, then what was the purpose of promising it?

The same heaven and the same earth that HE walked on and under, is the same heaven and earth I walk on and under. It still remains. This is undeniable Fact.

Now I get how seductive it is to promote a religion where Jesus has already done it all for whoever calls Him Lord. And this marketing strategy has been used to create the largest, most powerful, wealthiest religious businesses this world has ever seen. The high days they have created promote staggering sales and profits for the merchants of this world. And the image of God they have created is acknowledged and revered by billions in a world that is supposed to be the enemy of God.

So I understand how seductive and powerful these world's religions are. Nevertheless, I'm sticking to the Christ "of the Bible" AND God's instruction in Righteousness. This is what I advocate.

His mission, to complete our salvation through the perfect keeping of the Law and fulfilling all righteousness, was finished. He fulfilled the Old Covenant and in doing so ended it. A covenant, like a contract, once all the requirements of it have been fulfilled, has no more power. The second coming of Christ is not a tenant of the Old Covenant, but it is of the New.

Again, who is teaching you this foolishness? The Law and Prophets, through the "Feasts of the Lord", Prophesy of God's Salvation for men. Passover is the very beginning of His Salvation, not the end as you promote. There is the journey of God's people coming out of sin, (Unleavened bread) Pentecost representing the "first fruits of the Begotten children of God.", Feast of Trumpets represents the 2nd coming of Christ, Atonement, the putting away of Satan, Tabernacles represents the Children of God reigning with Christ, and the "Last great Day", White Throne Judgment where all who died in ignorance will get their fair trial to Salvation.

So your statement,

The second coming of Christ is not a tenant of the Old Covenant, but it is of the New.

Is a religious philosophy of this world, not from God.

Yes, the Old Covenant is there for us to learn from, and to understand what righteousness looks like, but it is not the Law under which we live today.

This is true, God's Law is not the Law you have "Yielded Yourself" a servant to obey. But it was for the Body of the Christ of the Bible. That is why I replied to your post in the first place.

Only the portions of the Old Law that were restated in the New Covenant are binding on us today: urder (Matt 5:21), adultery (Matt 5:27), theft, homosexuality, lying, greed, idolatry, etc. (1 Cor 6:9-10). But things like keeping the sabbath (Col 2:16), sacrificing in the Temple (Heb 10:11-12), eating the kosher diet (Acts 10:13-15): these things are not included in the New Covenant (actually are expressly excluded) and as such are not binding on us today.

Again, this is your religion, not the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible", in my view. God's Sabbath was "made for man", according to this same Christ. WE still offer Sacrifices to God in "HIS TEMPLE", according to Paul.

Man is created "after the image of God" and can choose to obey or disobey. A disobedient unclean man can turn to God and be cleansed of his uncleanness. This is undeniable Biblical Fact.

A Goat is not created after the image of God but is judged by God as Clean for food and cannot choose to be unclean. It matters nothing if a man deems it unclean, God has already placed His Judgment on it, and the Goat can do nothing to change it.

A maggot or a swine is also not created after the image of God but is Judged by God as unclean for food. It cannot choose to be clean, it cannot turn to God and pray to be cleansed. It matters nothing if a man deems it clean, God has already placed His Judgment on it, and the maggot or swine can do nothing to change it.

These things are undeniably Biblically true. This world rejects God's Judgments as it hates Him. The religions of this world, who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", also reject the Same Judgments of the Same God.

Jesus said this lust to reject God's Judgments "Comes from within", from the heart. This too, is undeniable Biblical Fact.

According to Acts 15, even a clean animal that is not dispatched properly, "Strangled", becomes unclean. And the Apostles told the Gentile Converts to "Abstain" from consuming them.

I know you will not be persuaded of these things, Jesus said so.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Nevertheless, it is good, in my view, to have the discussions anyway.

 

[360watt]

That is not completely correct. Yes, we must believe, but we also must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), and we must also confess Jesus as our Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and we must also be baptized (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38). All of these acts, just like belief of the Gospel, Scripture says lead to our receiving salvation. Belief is not the only thing we must do to receive salvation.

Repentance.. a change of mind, heart.. happens at belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. Confession would also be part.of belief in Jesus.

It's going from unbelief to belief in Jesus that saves...not any commitment to a set of behaviours for Jesus.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be forgiven sins and given eternal life includes repent.. and is repent.

When God repented his action to discipline Israel ... That was a change of mind..not a discontinue of works of behaviour.

So repent carries this meaning of a change of mind, heart. Not a promise to discontinue in sin.

Before salvation... A sinner is spiritually dead. There is nothing they can do behaviour wise to attain salvation. They can be drawn to believe on Jesus Christ.. by His grace, but earning salvation is putting 'perfume on a corpse '

 

[Seabass]

I agree that modern "Christianity" has rejected God's Laws, His Judgments and His Statutes, in favor of their own religious traditions. So modern religions have nothing to do with God's Laws. This is simply undeniable Truth. But the Church "of God" described in Scriptures did not reject God's Laws, His Judgments and His statutes. Paul instructed them to "Yield themselves" servants to obey God's Laws, and become "Servants to God's righteousness". So my argument is founded in Scriptures which I post, and hope to prompt an open, honest and unbiased discussion about. What I asked you, that you still refuse to even acknowledge, is what "LAW" was required by God through Moses, for the common man to do, if he was found in transgression?

It's a perfectly reasonable question and easy to answer. Why would you refuse to answer it? You don't even have to use your own words; you can quote Moses.

I agree that there is no "LAW" that can take away sin. The "LAW" defines Sin, it doesn't "justify" man once we have broken it. It's important in my view, to point out that the Pharisees were not trying to promote or walk in God's Laws. They too, had "rejected God's Laws, His Judgments and His Statutes by their own religious traditions." Paul said they were trying to be justified by "works of the Law". I asked the question I asked, to identify "what works" in the LAW of God that the Pharisees were promoting to justify themselves and others, given the Jesus "of the Bible" said they "Omitted" the weightier matter of God's Law, and although they had been given the Law of God through Moses, they refused to "keep it", instead they "Full well rejected God's commandments so their could walk in their own religious traditions.

It's a good question, and relevant to this discussion. Why would you not simply answer it?

I see that when Paul said the Jews were trying to be justified by 'works of the law" he was referring to the Jews of doing the work of flawless, sinless law keeping whereby they would merit salvation. Rom 4:4 if the Jew could work to keep the OT law perfectly then his reward would be something owed him and not of grace for sinless person does not need grace. Yet the Jew could not keep it perfectly.

I see the last half of Rom 7:14ff Paul using himself to describe the Jew who lived under the OT law working to keep it perfectly. He loved the law, he tried to keep the law but could not keep it perfectly thereby failed to be justified by the law leaving him condemned. Yet Paul begins Rom 8 with "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,..." NOW under the NT gospel as a Christian there is no condemnation in Christ (total justification) as opposed to back then under the OT there was condemnation for the law condemned the Jew committing just one sin, the OT law showed no mercy.