"Works Salvation"

[charismaticlady]

The propensity to sin is still part of us.

Our holiness is the goal, but John acknowledges that we still sin: “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One” (1 John 2:1).

God’s desire for us is that we not sin, and one day our sanctification will be complete (1 John 3:2). But, until that time, we still inhabit fallen bodies in a fallen world, and we struggle with the flesh and sometimes lose the battle. But we will not be lost; Jesus Himself intercedes for us as our High Priest (Romans 8:34).
Got?

If after salvation we were without sin why would Jesus have to intercede for us? Why would we need an advocate?

Why can’t I stop sinning? Please help! | GotQuestions.org

Why can’t I stop sinning? Please help! How can I find the strength to stop sinning?

www.gotquestions.org

Hi there! At first I thought you changed a word in the above verse, because it wasn't as I memorized it. The second sentence of the first verse starts with "And." You used "But" which strongly connects it to the first sentence as an exception as you also pointed out. Using the word "And" doesn't make the connection as strong to the first verse, seeing as the third sentence also starts with "and." So I looked up just that verse and how all translations wrote it and found both used about 50/50. But an interlinear Bible (I have two) uses the Greek word translated as "AND."

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This is another way to read this that changes the meaning toward emphasis on the first sentence, and the second and third verses show what the death of Jesus meant to the whole world.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[charismaticlady]

Of course, you have proof of that statement?

No, I didn't think so, because if that were the case, then He sinned, and cannot be our savior.

Yes, Jesus is the Promised Seed. Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made

Also:
Galatians 3:
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, Jesus is the Promised Seed. Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made

Also:
Galatians 3:
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Yes, clearly these are the passages he was referencing in his comment, but these passages do not show proof that Jesus did not sacrifice in the Temple during His ministry as he claims.

 

[charismaticlady]

Yes, clearly these are the passages he was referencing in his comment, but these passages do not show proof that Jesus did not sacrifice in the Temple during His ministry as he claims.

Just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Studyman]

WRONG!!!!
I am not promoting any such thing. You are reading into what I am saying your personal bias against modern world religious falsehoods, but I am not promoting any such thing.

The "world's religions" are biased against God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments. Even a child can see this. But Jesus wasn't, Paul wasn't, Peter wasn't.

Does it matter? Maybe not. But it is certainly true.

What I am saying, is that the OT is no longer the law that binds us.

Isn't that the exact same philosophy promoted to Eve by the "other voice" in the Garden God placed her in? That the instructions of the One True God no longer represent "Good Works"?

I am not saying it is not valuable or beneficial for us to study.

That's an understatement for sure.

2 Tim. 2: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So why does the Body of Christ need "Doctrine, correction, reproof, and "instruction in Righteousness"?

Here is Paul's answer to this question.

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Why does the Body of Christ Need "Good Works"?

Paul also answers this question.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Does Jesus teach the same thing?

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be".

And so whose definition of "Good Works" should we follow? The world that hates God? Or shall we follow the advice of Paul?

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Fornication is condemned in both the OT and the NT, so it is still sin today.
But eating anything, regardless of its status under the OT, is not sin today under the NT. This is demonstrated in the vision Peter had in Acts 10.

Can you show me in the Vision where Peter arose and ate maggots, or any other unclean thing that was offered to him? And what did Peter actually say?

Acts 10: 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

So explain to me how the story of Peters vision destroys God's definition of Clean and Unclean. Or is it just man's tradition to disregard God's Judgments in favor of their own?

In it, God tells Peter to arise and eat of all the "unclean" animals, and when he refuses God tells him not to call unclean what God has made clean.

Yes, he refuses to eat unclean animals, just as Jesus did. But he learned not to consider any repentant human, Jew or not, who God accepts, as unclean. Like Jesus did.

Further, Jesus Himself tells us that what goes into a man's mouth does not make him unclean, but what comes out of the mouth (from the heart) makes him unclean.

Yes, rebellion, disrespect, dishonor, disobedience, Sin, all these come from within. The pretty girl next door doesn't defile you. It's the lust for her that comes from within, that defiles you.

As Jesus said; Matt. 15: 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Did God make a commandment that men must wash their hands a certain way before they eat? No, there is no such commandment, and doing so isn't disobedience or disrespect to God from the heart.

But if I look right at His instruction regard what He created to be eaten by His People, and what HE created for other purposes, and I reject His instruction because the religions of this world I was born into don't respect Him in them, is this not wrong?

I either believe Him from the heart, or I don't.

Does it matter? Certainly not to "many" who come in Christ's Name. But it certainly met something to God, or else HE wouldn't have had Noah preserve them both.

Further, no animal was unclean from the Flood (when man was first given animals to eat) up until Sinai and the giving of the Law. The "kosher" diet was given to the Jews to distinguish them from the Gentiles, but since there is no longer a separation between Jew and Gentile (all are one people spiritually in the NT), there is no longer any need to distinguish between them by the way we eat.

In Scriptures, there was never a separation between Jew and Gentile. The corrupt Jews created a wall of separation, but not God. Here is what God actually says about it.

Ex. 12: 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

This is another deception promoted by "many" who come in Christ's Name, that God treated men differently, depending on the DNA they were born with. But God is no respecter of persons.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Now, you are welcome to consider any food "unclean" as you see fit.

Well, if you are going to speak about me in this way, I would rather you be factual. So please let me correct your statement.

"Now, you are welcome to consider any food "unclean" as God seen fit to define for you."

Thank you.

And for you, because you see it as evil to eat pork, for you it is sin to eat pork (1 Cor 8).

Again, please include my stated reasons for my beliefs, instead of trying to imply that I am promoting a superstition of this world. It is God who said to "Be Holy".

Lev. 11: 44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

I am simply following the instructions of the Lord who brought me out of Egypt (SIN).

Now I fully understand that the Pope and her religious daughters, who come in Christ's Name, promote a different definition of Holy, than the Holy One of Israel, the "Rock" who became flesh and blood did.

And you are free to "Yield yourselves" servants to obey her definition of Holy. Truly this God, when HE became a man, would never eat maggots or slugs or swine's flesh, nor would HE give such things to HIS Children. I think you know this is true. I am free to eat all manner of things, just as Eve was. It's OK with me if God instructs me to "Abstain" from eating things strangled, or blood, or foods offered to idols, or fornication, etc. After all HE is God and I am not.

Am I a fool for believing Him over this world's religious sects regarding what is Holy and what is clean? Truly there are "many" who come in Christ's Name that preach as much. And maybe they are right. Nevertheless, it seems more foolish to disregard, ignore or reject God's Judgments, in order to follow the judgments of men that Jesus rebuked the mainstream religions of His Time for promoting.

It's certainly a discussion worth having, in my view.

I'll finish my reply in another post.

 

[Doug Brents]

Isn't that the exact same philosophy promoted to Eve by the "other voice" in the Garden God placed her in? That the instructions of the One True God no longer represent "Good Works"?

Not at all. Because God is the author of Scripture, and in Gal 4:21-31 God says that the Old Covenant (the one that included the Law given at Mt Sinai) was made obsolete and driven away from the people of God. Because the children of promise come through the New Covenant.

That's an understatement for sure.

2 Tim. 2: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So why does the Body of Christ need "Doctrine, correction, reproof, and "instruction in Righteousness"?

Here is Paul's answer to this question.

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Why does the Body of Christ Need "Good Works"?

Paul also answers this question.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Does Jesus teach the same thing?

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be".

And so whose definition of "Good Works" should we follow? The world that hates God? Or shall we follow the advice of Paul?

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No dispute or argument here. But you are trying to drive us back under the OT Law, and we have been freed from the OT through Christ.

Can you show me in the Vision where Peter arose and ate maggots, or any other unclean thing that was offered to him? And what did Peter actually say?

Acts 10: 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

So explain to me how the story of Peters vision destroys God's definition of Clean and Unclean. Or is it just man's tradition to disregard God's Judgments in favor of their own?

God tells Peter to arise and eat of the things that were in the cloth (images of the unclean things according to the Law of Moses). Peter declines and says that he has never eaten anything unclean. But God tells him not to call unclean things that He has made clean. Now, does God lie? No. So although in the context of Acts 10 we can tell that God was also talking about the Gentiles, He was also making it clear to Peter (although he clearly did not understand immediately) that all animals have been made clean. Look back at Gen 9:3. Every living thing was given to Noah to eat, and this did not change until Mt. Sinai when the restrictions on what was to be eaten were given as part of the Law.

Yes, he refuses to eat unclean animals, just as Jesus did. But he learned not to consider any repentant human, Jew or not, who God accepts, as unclean. Like Jesus did.

Yes, Jesus only ate "clean" animals during His life (because He lived His entire life under the Old Covenant). But Peter and Paul (at the very least) did not limit themselves to only eating "clean" animals because they at with, in the houses of, Gentiles. And Paul says that he was as a Gentile to the Gentiles to win the Gentiles, just as he was as a Jew to the Jews to win the Jews.

Yes, rebellion, disrespect, dishonor, disobedience, Sin, all these come from within. The pretty girl next door doesn't defile you. It's the lust for her that comes from within, that defiles you.

As Jesus said; Matt. 15: 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Yes, to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man (his soul), and neither does eating pork, or shellfish, or any of the other "unclean" animal. It may cause disease to the body, but it cannot touch the soul and that is what Jesus is concerned about.

Did God make a commandment that men must wash their hands a certain way before they eat? No, there is no such commandment, and doing so isn't disobedience or disrespect to God from the heart.

But if I look right at His instruction regard what He created to be eaten by His People, and what HE created for other purposes, and I reject His instruction because the religions of this world I was born into don't respect Him in them, is this not wrong?

I either believe Him from the heart, or I don't.

Does it matter? Certainly not to "many" who come in Christ's Name. But it certainly met something to God, or else HE wouldn't have had Noah preserve them both.

If we were still under the Old Covenant Law, then yes, you would be right. But since we are no longer under the Law of Moses, we are not bound by it. You can keep yourself bound to it, but if you bind yourself to it in even one commandment, then you are bound to keep ALL OF IT (including the animal sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem) and Christ is worthless to you (Gal 5:12).

In Scriptures, there was never a separation between Jew and Gentile. The corrupt Jews created a wall of separation, but not God. Here is what God actually says about it.

Ex. 12: 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

This is another deception promoted by "many" who come in Christ's Name, that God treated men differently, depending on the DNA they were born with. But God is no respecter of persons.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

While there was only one law for both, there was still the distinction between the people of God and the Nations roundabout them. They were not to intermarry, they were not to eat the foods that the Nations ate, etc. But those distinctions have been done away with (Gal 3:28).

Well, if you are going to speak about me in this way, I would rather you be factual. So please let me correct your statement.

"Now, you are welcome to consider any food "unclean" as God seen fit to define for you."

Thank you.

No, my statement meant exactly what I intended. God defined some foods as unclean from Mt. Sinai to shortly after the Cross. But has sense declared all things as clean, just as they were from the Flood to Mt. Sinai. You can define some foods as unclean (for you) however you choose, but that does not make them unclean for other people. Your bondage to that thought does not impact my freedom in Christ to eat anything. "Kosher" eating is similar today to eating meat sacrificed to idols as Paul described in 1 Cor 8.

Again, please include my stated reasons for my beliefs, instead of trying to imply that I am promoting a superstition of this world. It is God who said to "Be Holy".

Lev. 11: 44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

I am simply following the instructions of the Lord who brought me out of Egypt (SIN).

I don't disparage your choice to not eat pork (or other "unclean" things). But as I said, if you are doing it to be righteous according to the Old Law, then you are bound to keep the whole Law, and any violation of any part of the Law (annual sacrifice in the Temple in Jerusalem) constitutes violation of the whole Law and incurs the penalty of violation of the Law, and Christ is of no value to you.

Now I fully understand that the Pope and her religious daughters, who come in Christ's Name, promote a different definition of Holy, than the Holy One of Israel, the "Rock" who became flesh and blood did.

I am not a papist, nor do I affiliate myself with that cult in any way. As you say, their beliefs are anti-Christ, and have defiled the faith for centuries.

And you are free to "Yield yourselves" servants to obey her definition of Holy. Truly this God, when HE became a man, would never eat maggots or slugs or swine's flesh, nor would HE give such things to HIS Children. I think you know this is true. I am free to eat all manner of things, just as Eve was. It's OK with me if God instructs me to "Abstain" from eating things strangled, or blood, or foods offered to idols, or fornication, etc. After all HE is God and I am not.

As I agreed earlier, Jesus could not have eaten pork or any other animal that was unclean at that time and remain sinless. But after He died, the things that were unclean for Him are no longer unclean for us. The Law of Moses, every single command, instruction, detail, and passage (from when and where to sacrifice, to who the priesthood is, to what we can eat, to how to atone for sins), has been fulfilled and made obsolete by Christ.

Am I a fool for believing Him over this world's religious sects regarding what is Holy and what is clean? Truly there are "many" who come in Christ's Name that preach as much. And maybe they are right. Nevertheless, it seems more foolish to disregard, ignore or reject God's Judgments, in order to follow the judgments of men that Jesus rebuked the mainstream religions of His Time for promoting.

It's certainly a discussion worth having, in my view.

I'll finish my reply in another post.

No, you are not a fool for believing Jesus over the world's religions, but you are blinded from much freedom in Christ by your desire to adhere to the Old Law. This may not be the correct thread for that discussion, but I hope you will study the passages I cited above and discover the riches of freedom we can experience in Christ apart from the Law of Moses.

 

[Studyman]

But for me, because I have been freed from this restriction by my faith in Christ, it is not sin for me to eat pork, or shellfish, etc. It may not be healthy to eat bat, for instance, but it is not sin.

And truly that is a very seductive religious philosophy, and a great marketing strategy for the religious businesses of this world. It's brilliant really, leading to the creation of some of the wealthiest religious businesses and corporations this world has ever seen. And the religious high day Constantine created, is the most observed religious high day on this planet. Generating sales and wealth that is nearly impossible to even count.

There are over 15,000 Christmas tree farms in the US alone. The Christmas tree industry alone is a 1.33 Billion dollar industry annually, increasing each year.

While the Feasts of the Lord generate nearly nothing in the USA. As a marketing strategy, God's Feasts and Judgments can't really be used to generate wealth or create businesses because people despise them. But the high days and Judgments created by the religions of this world, who come in Christ's Name, is a cash cow that the merchants of the earth have waxed rich from.

So if I follow Paul's instruction to "Yield myself" servants to obey God, and become a servant of God's Righteousness, I am not popular. I fight against powers of the air every day. I am in distress and broken, striving against God's definition of Sin.

But if I follow the religions of this world you are promoting, I am free from God's Righteousness, I have no fight, I am on a path with "many" others and have the opportunity to go to school and learn how to run a wealth creating religious business. I am not broken, I have few struggles and once I am saved, I am always saved.

While I can certainly see how seductive this religious philosophy is, it simply isn't the Gospel of Christ Jesus and Paul promoted, according to what the scriptures actually say, in my view.

By this, you are implying that I have yielded myself to serve Satan, and not the Lord Jesus, but nothing could be further from the truth.

In my understanding we are all born into a world in which satan is the prince. He is disguised as an "Apostles of Christ", its ministers are ministers of righteousness, just not God's righteousness.

Abraham, was born into a religion he was told to leave. Jesus was born into a religion he Himself said was Headed by the children of the devil. I was also born into the same religion and partook of the same religion as you are now promoting.

Doug, we all have a cross to bear. We were all born into religions of this world that are not sent by or governed by God as your own words clearly state. I just don't believe this is the case, and because of God's Love, I am sharing my perspective with you.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But in the religions of this world "many" have adopted and you are now defending and promoting, you have been "Freed from this God", Freed from HIS Judgments, HIS Commandments, HIS statutes.

But you were free from all these things before. That is why you needed repentance in the first place. So then, it seems men who adopt this religious philosophy were a child of disobedience in times past, and are still a child of disobedience, except now they reject God's Judgments and Statutes "in Christ's Name".

I don't believe the Scriptures promote this version of the Gospel, even though it a very popular version.

Because of the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus, I a freed from the Law and am bound to Christ as my master. His yolk is easy, and I am not bound to any religious "do this/don't do that" set of rules. As Paul said in 1 Cor 10, all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial.

LOL, yes, Paul can do as he pleases, God has given us all free will.

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

This is a poor translation as even a child knows that not "all" things are Lawful for Paul.

Νόμιμος
The Greek word for "lawful" is νόμιμος1. Another Greek word for "lawful" is νόμιμα2. The Greek word for "it is lawful" is Ἔξεστιν3, which means "to be allowed", "is possible," and "to be in one's power".

So Paul is allowed to do as he pleases.

(CLV) 23 All is allowed me, but not all is expedient. All is allowed me, but not all is edifying.

He can "Yield himself" servants to obey whatever religion he chooses. If he Yields himself a servant to obey a religion who transgresses God's Commandments by their traditions, AKA "Sin", this "work" is still unto death. Which certainly you would have to agree is not expedient or edifying for him. (Rom. 6

And even in the same 1 Cor. 10, he says about the examples God had written for our admonition "11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Why would he fall? Because some "works" he is allowed to do, will bring him death, and not life. As he tries to tell men this truth all the time in all his letters. But some of his words can't be used to promote popular religious philosophies promoted by this world's religions businesses.

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not "that the unrighteous" shall not inherit the kingdom of God? "Be not deceived": neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So yes Doug, I have heard the argument you are putting forth since my youth, that Paul is saying he can sin against God, reject God's Judgments, and refuse to walk in His Statutes and no harm will come to him. This was exactly what the religions of Jeremiah's time promoted.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

But this teaching is a deception, and Paul is teaching no such thing, and this is easy to demonstrate by considering ALL of Paul's teaching, instead of selecting one verse from the Bible, separating it from all the other words of Paul, and then using it to promote the popular religious philosophy of this world that Jesus came to destroy the Law and Prophets.

Thanks for the opportunity to share a perspective of a nobody who has "come out of her".

 

[Doug Brents]

And truly that is a very seductive religious philosophy, and a great marketing strategy for the religious businesses of this world. It's brilliant really, leading to the creation of some of the wealthiest religious businesses and corporations this world has ever seen. And the religious high day Constantine created, is the most observed religious high day on this planet. Generating sales and wealth that is nearly impossible to even count.

There are over 15,000 Christmas tree farms in the US alone. The Christmas tree industry alone is a 1.33 Billion dollar industry annually, increasing each year.

While the Feasts of the Lord generate nearly nothing in the USA. As a marketing strategy, God's Feasts and Judgments can't really be used to generate wealth or create businesses because people despise them. But the high days and Judgments created by the religions of this world, who come in Christ's Name, is a cash cow that the merchants of the earth have waxed rich from.

None of that is even remotely close to what we are discussing. Christmas is not a Biblically mandated holiday, but there is nothing wrong with celebrating it. Hanukkah is not a mandated holiday according to the Law of Moses, but Jesus celebrated it (John 10:22-23).

So if I follow Paul's instruction to "Yield myself" servants to obey God, and become a servant of God's Righteousness, I am not popular. I fight against powers of the air every day. I am in distress and broken, striving against God's definition of Sin.

No, you are striving against your definition of sin, not God's definition.

But if I follow the religions of this world you are promoting, I am free from God's Righteousness, I have no fight, I am on a path with "many" others and have the opportunity to go to school and learn how to run a wealth creating religious business. I am not broken, I have few struggles and once I am saved, I am always saved.

Not at all. OSAS is a false doctrine that I actively speak against. And yes, if you are working for the Prince of the Air in this world then you will have fewer challenges (potentially) because you are not fighting against the evil of this world, but that also is not what I do, or teach. I am not following or promoting the "religions of this world". I am teaching God's Word directly from His Scriptures. The fact that you can not see the freedom we have in Christ is sad, but it does not mean that I am serving the enemy.

While I can certainly see how seductive this religious philosophy is, it simply isn't the Gospel of Christ Jesus and Paul promoted, according to what the scriptures actually say, in my view.

Is it wrong to eat meat that is sacrificed to an idol? Well, according to 1 Cor 8, it is not, in and of itself, wrong to eat meat that has been sacrificed to an idol: because the idol is nothing. But if a person is weak of faith and sees the idol as something, then to them it is sinful to eat: because they put stock in the importance of the idol and so for them the meat is dedicated to the something behind the idol. That means that there are some things that for one person are sin, but for another person are not sin. This is directly from Scripture, not my conjecture or "man made doctrine". And there are many things like this. If you believe that we must worship on Saturday, then for you that is a requirement, and it is sin to not do so. I know that the Sabbath is not part of the NT commandments, and so for me worshiping on Saturday is not a requirement. I worship God on every day equally, not just on one day a week (Rom 14:5-6).

In my understanding we are all born into a world in which satan is the prince. He is disguised as an "Apostles of Christ", its ministers are ministers of righteousness, just not God's righteousness.

There is no "righteousness" that is not God's righteousness. Satan is not righteous; he is a liar and the father of lies. When he lies, he speaks his native language. He can "resemble" an angel of light (not an Apostle of Christ).

Abraham, was born into a religion he was told to leave. Jesus was born into a religion he Himself said was Headed by the children of the devil. I was also born into the same religion and partook of the same religion as you are now promoting.

I am not promoting a religion. I am preaching the Gospel of Christ through which we are freed from sin.

Doug, we all have a cross to bear. We were all born into religions of this world that are not sent by or governed by God as your own words clearly state. I just don't believe this is the case, and because of God's Love, I am sharing my perspective with you.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But in the religions of this world "many" have adopted and you are now defending and promoting, you have been "Freed from this God", Freed from HIS Judgments, HIS Commandments, HIS statutes.

But you were free from all these things before. That is why you needed repentance in the first place. So then, it seems men who adopt this religious philosophy were a child of disobedience in times past, and are still a child of disobedience, except now they reject God's Judgments and Statutes "in Christ's Name".

I don't believe the Scriptures promote this version of the Gospel, even though it a very popular version.

No, I have not been freed from His judgements, commandments, and statutes. I am bound to His judgements, commandments, and statutes because I love Him for what He has done for me. But I am not bound to His commandments that were part of the OT, because those are not the commandments and statutes that are in effect on the NT Church. As Gal 4:21-31 says, the OT Law (the Law that was given at Mt Sinai) was driven out because it does not create heirs, but slavery. The sons of the Law are the sons of Hagar the slave. But the sons of the New Covenant are the heirs and free men.

LOL, yes, Paul can do as he pleases, God has given us all free will.

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

This is a poor translation as even a child knows that not "all" things are Lawful for Paul.

Νόμιμος
The Greek word for "lawful" is νόμιμος1. Another Greek word for "lawful" is νόμιμα2. The Greek word for "it is lawful" is Ἔξεστιν3, which means "to be allowed", "is possible," and "to be in one's power".

So Paul is allowed to do as he pleases.

(CLV) 23 All is allowed me, but not all is expedient. All is allowed me, but not all is edifying.

He can "Yield himself" servants to obey whatever religion he chooses. If he Yields himself a servant to obey a religion who transgresses God's Commandments by their traditions, AKA "Sin", this "work" is still unto death. Which certainly you would have to agree is not expedient or edifying for him. (Rom. 6

And even in the same 1 Cor. 10, he says about the examples God had written for our admonition "11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Why would he fall? Because some "works" he is allowed to do, will bring him death, and not life. As he tries to tell men this truth all the time in all his letters. But some of his words can't be used to promote popular religious philosophies promoted by this world's religions businesses.

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not "that the unrighteous" shall not inherit the kingdom of God? "Be not deceived": neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So yes Doug, I have heard the argument you are putting forth since my youth, that Paul is saying he can sin against God, reject God's Judgments, and refuse to walk in His Statutes and no harm will come to him. This was exactly what the religions of Jeremiah's time promoted.

Nothing could be further from the truth. That is not what Paul is saying at all. Paul is not saying that he is free to sin against God and not pay the penalty for sin. This is clear in 1 Cor 9:27 that Paul is saying the exact opposite. He daily has to reign in his body and prevent himself from sin, so that he himself will not be disqualified from salvation after having brought so many to salvation through his preaching.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

But this teaching is a deception, and Paul is teaching no such thing, and this is easy to demonstrate by considering ALL of Paul's teaching, instead of selecting one verse from the Bible, separating it from all the other words of Paul, and then using it to promote the popular religious philosophy of this world that Jesus came to destroy the Law and Prophets.

I am sorry that you are so enamored of the OT Law that you want to put us back under that unbearable weight. No, I am not taking one verse of Paul's and separating it from its context to promote a popular religious philosophy of this world. There are many passages of Scripture that say we are no longer under the OT. I have given you several of them in the past few posts. You are free to keep yourself bound to it, but if you do then Christ is worthless to you, and you are bound to keep EVERY SINGLE COMMANDMENT perfectly FOR YOUR ENTIRE LIFE if you hope to see Heaven (Gal 5:12). And I can assure you that you have already failed to keep EVERY commandment, because you have not gone to the Temple in Jerusalem to have the Levite priests offer your sacrifice on the Alter of God. I know this, because there has not been an alter, or a Temple, since 70AD. And there is not a single Jew today who can trace his ancestry back to Levi to prove that he is qualified to offer the sacrifice.

Thanks for the opportunity to share a perspective of a nobody who has "come out of her".

 

[Rapture Bound]

And truly that is a very seductive religious philosophy, and a great marketing strategy for the religious businesses of this world. It's brilliant really, leading to the creation of some of the wealthiest religious businesses and corporations this world has ever seen. And the religious high day Constantine created, is the most observed religious high day on this planet. Generating sales and wealth that is nearly impossible to even count.

There are over 15,000 Christmas tree farms in the US alone. The Christmas tree industry alone is a 1.33 Billion dollar industry annually, increasing each year.

While the Feasts of the Lord generate nearly nothing in the USA. As a marketing strategy, God's Feasts and Judgments can't really be used to generate wealth or create businesses because people despise them. But the high days and Judgments created by the religions of this world, who come in Christ's Name, is a cash cow that the merchants of the earth have waxed rich from.

So if I follow Paul's instruction to "Yield myself" servants to obey God, and become a servant of God's Righteousness, I am not popular. I fight against powers of the air every day. I am in distress and broken, striving against God's definition of Sin.

But if I follow the religions of this world you are promoting, I am free from God's Righteousness, I have no fight, I am on a path with "many" others and have the opportunity to go to school and learn how to run a wealth creating religious business. I am not broken, I have few struggles and once I am saved, I am always saved.

While I can certainly see how seductive this religious philosophy is, it simply isn't the Gospel of Christ Jesus and Paul promoted, according to what the scriptures actually say, in my view.



In my understanding we are all born into a world in which satan is the prince. He is disguised as an "Apostles of Christ", its ministers are ministers of righteousness, just not God's righteousness.

Abraham, was born into a religion he was told to leave. Jesus was born into a religion he Himself said was Headed by the children of the devil. I was also born into the same religion and partook of the same religion as you are now promoting.

Doug, we all have a cross to bear. We were all born into religions of this world that are not sent by or governed by God as your own words clearly state. I just don't believe this is the case, and because of God's Love, I am sharing my perspective with you.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But in the religions of this world "many" have adopted and you are now defending and promoting, you have been "Freed from this God", Freed from HIS Judgments, HIS Commandments, HIS statutes.

But you were free from all these things before. That is why you needed repentance in the first place. So then, it seems men who adopt this religious philosophy were a child of disobedience in times past, and are still a child of disobedience, except now they reject God's Judgments and Statutes "in Christ's Name".

I don't believe the Scriptures promote this version of the Gospel, even though it a very popular version.



LOL, yes, Paul can do as he pleases, God has given us all free will.

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

This is a poor translation as even a child knows that not "all" things are Lawful for Paul.

Νόμιμος
The Greek word for "lawful" is νόμιμος1. Another Greek word for "lawful" is νόμιμα2. The Greek word for "it is lawful" is Ἔξεστιν3, which means "to be allowed", "is possible," and "to be in one's power".

So Paul is allowed to do as he pleases.

(CLV) 23 All is allowed me, but not all is expedient. All is allowed me, but not all is edifying.

He can "Yield himself" servants to obey whatever religion he chooses. If he Yields himself a servant to obey a religion who transgresses God's Commandments by their traditions, AKA "Sin", this "work" is still unto death. Which certainly you would have to agree is not expedient or edifying for him. (Rom. 6

And even in the same 1 Cor. 10, he says about the examples God had written for our admonition "11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Why would he fall? Because some "works" he is allowed to do, will bring him death, and not life. As he tries to tell men this truth all the time in all his letters. But some of his words can't be used to promote popular religious philosophies promoted by this world's religions businesses.

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not "that the unrighteous" shall not inherit the kingdom of God? "Be not deceived": neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So yes Doug, I have heard the argument you are putting forth since my youth, that Paul is saying he can sin against God, reject God's Judgments, and refuse to walk in His Statutes and no harm will come to him. This was exactly what the religions of Jeremiah's time promoted.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

But this teaching is a deception, and Paul is teaching no such thing, and this is easy to demonstrate by considering ALL of Paul's teaching, instead of selecting one verse from the Bible, separating it from all the other words of Paul, and then using it to promote the popular religious philosophy of this world that Jesus came to destroy the Law and Prophets.

Thanks for the opportunity to share a perspective of a nobody who has "come out of her".

You stated, "But if I follow the religions of this world you are promoting, I am free from God's Righteousness, I have no fight, I am on a path with "many" others and have the opportunity to go to school and learn how to run a wealth creating religious business. I am not broken, I have few struggles**** and once I am saved, I am always saved.****

Your statement is totally non-sensical to me as it concerns the phrase "and once I am saved, I am always saved". Wow, just wow! Please explain to me the connection between the "once saved, always saved" reality with the remainder of your statement. It seems to me that you attempt to do away with it's reality by implying it has some type of antinomian element inherent to it ... with absolutely zero scriptural support or coherent thought to support your futile claim.

 

[Studyman]

No, you are not a fool for believing Jesus over the world's religions, but you are blinded from much freedom in Christ by your desire to adhere to the Old Law. This may not be the correct thread for that discussion, but I hope you will study the passages I cited above and discover the riches of freedom we can experience in Christ apart from the Law of Moses.

You mean, "apart from God" as Moses never created even one law. Not one! So you are preaching that Jesus "freed you from God", and HIS Righteousness that Jesus Himself said to SEEK First. Exactly the same doctrine that the serpent convinced Eve of, that she too could be "Freed from this Same God" and "HIS Righteous Judgments". All she had to do was reject God's instruction in Righteousness and adopt her own.

It was the Priesthood that changed, not God's instruction in righteousness. But, as the Jesus "of the bible teaches"

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead"

 

[Studyman]

You stated, "But if I follow the religions of this world you are promoting, I am free from God's Righteousness, I have no fight, I am on a path with "many" others and have the opportunity to go to school and learn how to run a wealth creating religious business. I am not broken, I have few struggles**** and once I am saved, I am always saved.****

Your statement is totally non-sensical to me as it concerns the phrase "and once I am saved, I am always saved". Wow, just wow! Please explain to me the connection between the "once saved, always saved" reality with the remainder of your statement. It seems to me that you attempt to do away with it's reality by implying it has some type of antinomian element inherent to it ...

with absolutely zero scriptural support or coherent thought to support your futile claim.

or coherent thought to support your futile claim.

Yes, OSAS is one of the "many" popular religious traditions and doctrines promoted by this world's religions that I have spelled out to you. Funny that you don't seem to mind all the other man-made religious doctrines and traditions of this world, but are offended when I mentioned this one.

The Spirit of the Christ knew religious men would be promoting this particular manmade doctrine, and it seems HE Inspired Paul to address this very doctrine. It's like HE saw it coming from all those years ago.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

It seems the Christ "of the Bible" had these word's Inspired to specifically address the very doctrine of OSAS. Hear Paul's Words as he speaks to the Body of Christ, that is, the Christ of the Bible.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we (Body of Christ) should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our (Body of Christ) admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (Our Time) 12 Wherefore (Because of these truths) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

So you might be offended, and not believe Paul and Jesus and all the places where His Spirit warns specifically of "many" who come in Christ's name. But to say my understanding is founded;

with absolutely zero scriptural support or coherent thought to support your futile claim.

is simply foolishness. A deception designed to keep those who have been convinced by this world's religions that they STAND, from Taking Heed lest they fall.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

I think Jesus saw OSAS coming, and prepared these Words for His people to hear, so as not be deceived by these seductive religious philosophies including, but not limited to OSAS.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Yes, OSAS is one of the "many" popular religious traditions and doctrines promoted by this world's religions that I have spelled out to you. Funny that you don't seem to mind all the other man-made religious doctrines and traditions of this world, but are offended when I mentioned this one.

The Spirit of the Christ knew religious men would be promoting this particular manmade doctrine, and it seems HE Inspired Paul to address this very doctrine. It's like HE saw it coming from all those years ago.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

It seems the Christ "of the Bible" had these word's Inspired to specifically address the very doctrine of OSAS. Hear Paul's Words as he speaks to the Body of Christ, that is, the Christ of the Bible.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we (Body of Christ) should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our (Body of Christ) admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (Our Time) 12 Wherefore (Because of these truths) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

So you might be offended, and not believe Paul and Jesus and all the places where His Spirit warns specifically of "many" who come in Christ's name. But to say my understanding is founded;


is simply foolishness. A deception designed to keep those who have been convinced by this world's religions that they STAND, from Taking Heed lest they fall.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

I think Jesus saw OSAS coming, and prepared these Words for His people to hear, so as not be deceived by these seductive religious philosophies including, but not limited to OSAS.

There are many professing believers out there who tell me that Jesus’ finished work on the cross doesn’t equal OSAS. My response … “correct, it doesn’t equal it … it’s the guaranteed result of it for all those who have truly trusted solely in it for their eternal salvation/life.”
In other words, Jesus saw the multitudes coming who would fall short of receiving salvation due to their failure to trust in Christ's finished work alone.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Yes, OSAS is one of the "many" popular religious traditions and doctrines promoted by this world's religions that I have spelled out to you. Funny that you don't seem to mind all the other man-made religious doctrines and traditions of this world, but are offended when I mentioned this one.

The Spirit of the Christ knew religious men would be promoting this particular manmade doctrine, and it seems HE Inspired Paul to address this very doctrine. It's like HE saw it coming from all those years ago.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

It seems the Christ "of the Bible" had these word's Inspired to specifically address the very doctrine of OSAS. Hear Paul's Words as he speaks to the Body of Christ, that is, the Christ of the Bible.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we (Body of Christ) should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our (Body of Christ) admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (Our Time) 12 Wherefore (Because of these truths) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

So you might be offended, and not believe Paul and Jesus and all the places where His Spirit warns specifically of "many" who come in Christ's name. But to say my understanding is founded;


is simply foolishness. A deception designed to keep those who have been convinced by this world's religions that they STAND, from Taking Heed lest they fall.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

I think Jesus saw OSAS coming, and prepared these Words for His people to hear, so as not be deceived by these seductive religious philosophies including, but not limited to OSAS.

You stated, "Funny that you don't seem to mind all the other man-made religious doctrines and traditions of this world, but are offended when I mentioned this one."

Really??? Where did I ever say that I don't mind all the other man-made doctrines and traditions of this world??? Why do you insist on putting words into my mouth?? Show me the evidence of your false claim [by quoting me]... i.e.- return to reality please. Why do you embarrass yourself like this?? How is it even possible to have a rational conversation with you when you misrepresent what I'm saying??? ... sad to say - it's an utter waste of my time.

 

[Studyman]

There are many professing believers out there who tell me that Jesus’ finished work on the cross doesn’t equal OSAS. My response … “correct, it doesn’t equal it … it’s the guaranteed result of it for all those who have truly trusted solely in it for their eternal salvation/life.”
In other words, Jesus saw the multitudes coming who would fall short of receiving salvation due to their failure to trust in Christ's finished work alone.

It is true that there are "many" who come in Christ's Name, who preach "many" things about Him. The Jesus "of the Bible" warns me of this very thing. In the Holy Scriptures, that Jesus said cannot be broken, His Disciples asked Him about the future.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For "many" shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive "many".

Notice that this Jesus did not warn me or His Disciples here about Atheists, or Islam, or Buddhism, or even satanism etc. And of course not, none of these religions, (Atheism is a religion of self-worship, in my view) of this world would be able to deceive a member of God's Church.

But a religious voice who comes in God/Christ's Name, who quotes some of God's/Christ's Words, this religious voice could deceive many. We are shown this from the very beginning.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, "Yea, hath God said", Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

There is only "ONE" Religion in this world God placed me in, that fits the definition of the deceiver Jesus was the most concerned with regarding the future. This religion, made up of literally hundreds of differing sects and religious businesses, calls itself "Christianity".

In the post you replied to, I shared with Doug some truths about these many religious sects, "who come in Christ's Name", and their many doctrines and traditions which cause those who adopt them to "Transgress God's commandments".

OSAS is only One of dozens of popular religious doctrines promoted by this world's religions, who come in Christ's Name.

Just the Biblical Fact that Jesus gave HIS People this Warning in the first place, is proof that OSAS is just another of many false teachings promoted by the religions of this world.

So given these truths, and many others written for both your and my admonition, I point these things out so that others might also consider what is actually written, VS, as Paul calls it, "philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

 

[Studyman]

You stated, "Funny that you don't seem to mind all the other man-made religious doctrines and traditions of this world, but are offended when I mentioned this one."

Really??? Where did I ever say that I don't mind all the other man-made doctrines and traditions of this world??? Why do you insist on putting words into my mouth?? Show me the evidence of your false claim [by quoting me]... i.e.- return to reality please. Why do you embarrass yourself like this?? How is it even possible to have a rational conversation with you when you misrepresent what I'm saying??? ... sad to say - it's an utter waste of my time.

Your anger is a perfectly natural and fleshy reaction that all men have when the Scriptures chastise or correct them or expose a popular belief they had adopted, as a deception. I understand this anger, having been and are still being corrected by God's Word. We are to "Rule over this fleshy anger", a struggle I also deal with every day. I won't get mad back, rather, I would choose a rational unbiased discussion.

In your response you didn't address any of the doctrines and traditions of men that I pointed out over the course of Doug and I's discussion. There is a long line of them, and some are quite egregious, in my view. You made no mention to any of them, not the images of God created in the likeness of a handsome man. Not the manmade high days, or wholesale rejection of God's Judgments and Statutes. Not one word about any of them. But questioning the popular OSAS doctrine, that prompted malice and anger towards me. I found this a little funny and shared it with you and you got offended. I am sorry you got offended, but I'm glad you were reading along.

It reminds me of a joke I once heard. There was this old married couple having a fight. The wife got very frustrated with her husband and yelled at him, "You are a Liar and an adulterer, and your feet stink". The husband, greatly offended, Yells back in great indignation, "My feet do not stink".

You said here.

"It seems to me that you attempt to do away with it's (OSAS) reality by implying it has some type of antinomian element inherent to it ... with absolutely zero scriptural support or coherent thought to support your futile claim."

Sadly, when I posted just a few of the volumes of Scriptural support which bring question to this popular religious doctrine promoted by "Many", who come in Christ's Name", and explained in quite detail the "coherent thought" which brought me to my conclusions, you didn't address even one scripture which brought me to my conclusion.

How is it even possible to have a rational conversation with you when you misrepresent "refuse to address" what I'm saying???

There is a difference, in my view, between discussing a popular doctrine, and promoting a popular doctrine. I'm all in for the honest discussion.

 

[civic]

This is a great topic of discussion as long as we keep things civil and not get personal with those we disagree with on the topic of OSAS. I've been on both sides of this fence and both sides can find scriptures to support their argument. . I know those on either side will not like or agree with my past comment but its true. What I am not saying is both sides are right as that would be a contradiction, but both sides can make their case.

 

[Complete]

'Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in His sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.'
(Rom 3:20)

There is no such thing as 'works salvation'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug Brents]

You mean, "apart from God" as Moses never created even one law. Not one! So you are preaching that Jesus "freed you from God", and HIS Righteousness that Jesus Himself said to SEEK First. Exactly the same doctrine that the serpent convinced Eve of, that she too could be "Freed from this Same God" and "HIS Righteous Judgments". All she had to do was reject God's instruction in Righteousness and adopt her own.

WRONG!!!
READ the Scripture for yourself. Don't skip over reading the passages I cite (which obviously you have) or you will get the idea (which you obviously have) that I am speaking for myself and not from God's Word.
Gal 4:21-31 - "Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant [The Old Covenant] is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son [The Old Covenant], for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son [The New Covenant].” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman [The Old Covenant], but of the free woman [The New Covenant]."
You see, the Old Covenant, in its entirety not just the priesthood, has been sent away. We are no longer bound to the Old Covenant in any way, because it is the Covenant of slavery while the New Covenant is the Covenant of freedom. They are/were both God's Covenant, and both contain/contained His laws, but the Old lead to bondage, and the New leads to freedom.

It was the Priesthood that changed, not God's instruction in righteousness.

No, not just the priesthood. Paul says immediately following the passage above:
Gal 5:1-6 - "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."
Not only the priesthood, but also circumcision, which was established with Abraham long before the Law was given to Moses, was also removed. Every part of the Old Covenant was fulfilled, completed, and made obsolete in Christ.

But, as the Jesus "of the bible teaches"
"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead"

This verse was part of a parable Jesus was telling to Jews who where, at that time, still living under the Law. That was the only Law they had at that time, because they did not have the Apostles' writing yet, and Jesus was not yet sacrificed so the New Covenant was not yet established. That being the case, yes, Jesus pointed to the Moses (the Law) and the Prophets because that held the Law under which they were living at the time. It does not indicate that the Law is still applicable to us today.

 

[Seabass]

'Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in His sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.'
(Rom 3:20)

There is no such thing as 'works salvation'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Heb 11:7 - Noah moved with fear, built (a work) an ark to the saving of his house.....Noah performed an obedient work to bring about salvation from the flood.

 

[Azriel]

Praise be to God for Noah's obedience. And thank you Jesus for doing the work to save us by dying on a cross. As Christians, we no longer look to the Ark but to the Lord Jesus Himself as the propitiation and atonement for our sins.