"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

Praise be to God for Noah's obedience. And thank you Jesus for doing the work to save us by dying on a cross. As Christians, we no longer look to the Ark but to the Lord Jesus Himself as the propitiation and atonement for our sins.

Again, this has never been in doubt or up for debate in this thread (at least as far as I am concerned). What is being debated is what Scripture says is the point at which the saving effect of His sacrifice is received by us. Many on this forum contend that we receive that benefit as soon as we give intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel (when we believe). But there are others of us that believe that there are actions, in addition to intellectual assent, that must be done to receive Jesus' purchased salvation. And if those actions are not performed then salvation is not received by us, because those actions are part of the faith that is the conduit through which we receive Jesus' salvation.

 

[Seabass]

God did not command Noah to 'do nothing' and thou shalt be saved as Christ never said "do nothing" and thou shalt be saved.....Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey Him Heb 5:9.

 

[civic]

Again, this has never been in doubt or up for debate in this thread (at least as far as I am concerned). What is being debated is what Scripture says is the point at which the saving effect of His sacrifice is received by us. Many on this forum contend that we receive that benefit as soon as we give intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel (when we believe). But there are others of us that believe that there are actions, in addition to intellectual assent, that must be done to receive Jesus' purchased salvation. And if those actions are not performed then salvation is not received by us, because those actions are part of the faith that is the conduit through which we receive Jesus' salvation.

There are misconceptions that we are saved by faith alone. Biblical faith which saves is never alone there is evidence of ones faith seen by their actions. Faith without works is dead. A real faith has with it fruit, works. Works/ Fruit are the byproduct of salvific faith. Works are not the means of faith but the result of faith. 2 sides of the same coin. We are justified by faith and that faith will produce good works ( Eph 2:10 ). The Fruit of faith.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Doug Brents]

There are misconceptions that we are saved by faith alone. Biblical faith which saves is never alone there is evidence of ones faith seen by their actions. Faith without works is dead. A real faith has with it fruit, works. Works/ Fruit are the byproduct of salvific faith. Works are not the means of faith but the result of faith. 2 sides of the same coin. We are justified by faith and that faith will produce good works ( Eph 2:10 ). The Fruit of faith.

hope this helps !!!

According to Rom 10:9-10, which leads to the other:
confession leads to salvation? or
salvation leads to confession?

According to Acts 3:19, which leads to the other:
repentance leads to salvation? or
salvation leads to repentance?

According to Mark 16:16, which leads to the other:
belief and baptism leads to salvation? or
salvation leads to belief and baptism?

These actions must be done in faith, and even Eph 2:10 says that faith must come before salvation is received. And as you said, faith must bring about actions or it is dead and worthless.

 

[Rowan]

Romans 3:20–4:25 indicates what is at the heart of Paul’s argument in all of Romans: faith, not works, is the condition for standing righteous before God.

In Romans 3:21, 22, righteousness is “apart from the law”; it is “by faith”.

In Romans 3:27, boasting is excluded—not by the “law” of works, but by the “law” of faith.

In Romans 3:28, justification is “by faith” apart from the works of the law.

In Romans 4:2, 3, if Abraham were justified by works he might boast; instead, he “put faith” in God and was accounted righteous.

In Romans 4:4, 5, for one who “works” any reward is reckoned by obligation, whereas for one believing his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

 

[Doug Brents]

Romans 3:20–4:25 indicates what is at the heart of Paul’s argument in all of Romans: faith, not works, is the condition for standing righteous before God.

In Romans 3:21, 22, righteousness is “apart from the law”; it is “by faith”.

In Romans 3:27, boasting is excluded—not by the “law” of works, but by the “law” of faith.

In Romans 3:28, justification is “by faith” apart from the works of the law.

In Romans 4:2, 3, if Abraham were justified by works he might boast; instead, he “put faith” in God and was accounted righteous.

In Romans 4:4, 5, for one who “works” any reward is reckoned by obligation, whereas for one believing his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Paul's focus here is "works of the Law (of Moses)", not works in general. We can tell this because he makes a clear action (confession of Jesus as Lord "with the mouth") as a condition for receiving salvation (Rom 10:9-10). And faith is not really faith without it producing action before salvation is received.

 

[e v e]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums

it is quite a job to die to the Self..

and be rescued from Here


i hope He gets us out any day now

 

[e v e]

a soul needs to meet Him true

but plead for us
He will get us out of here

 

[Studyman]

WRONG!!!
READ the Scripture for yourself. Don't skip over reading the passages I cite (which obviously you have) or you will get the idea (which you obviously have) that I am speaking for myself and not from God's Word.
Gal 4:21-31 - "Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant [The Old Covenant] is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

So my interest here is different than yours. You are here to defend and promote the doctrines and philosophies of a specific religious sect that you have adopted. Namely that Jesus came to "Free you from God's instruction in righteousness" AKA "God's Law". And as a result of this philosophy that you were born into and have adopted, you only speak to scripture that "can be" interpreted to promote your specific Philosophy, that Jesus came to "Free you from God's Laws".

In this case, in order to defend your stated religious philosophy, you must interpret "under the law" as meaning under the requirement to obey any and all of God's Law that was given to Israel "from Mt. Sinai".

You also must also interpret " Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because "she is in slavery with her children." as the Pharisees and the Jews in Jerusalem in Paul's Time, being in "Slavery to God's Laws". Jesus' Words alone expose this doctrine and from below and not above.

You must also ignore and omit the Biblical Fact that Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, and God's Holy Sabbath commandment was given to Abraham's Children before Mt. Sinai. And also that the 10 commandments were given and broken before the Levitical Priesthood was established.

So to defend and promote your adopted religious philosophy that Jesus came to "Free you from God's Law", you must interpret the Law and Prophets as teaching that God led Israel out of Egypt, not to free them from sin, deception and oppression, but that God deceived the Children of Abraham, and lied to them to trick them into following Him so HE could place an unbearable "Yoke of Bondage" on the necks of Abraham's Children and force them into being "Slaves to God's Law".

And when Jesus came to Jerusalem, these poor Jews were still held captive by God, to His Laws" forced into living under unjust, unbearable commandments, statutes and judgments that God lied to Abraham's Children about, telling them these LAWs were given them for their own wellbeing and they were perfectly capable of walking in them.

And because God is so unjust, His Son had to risk HIS Life, and become a man and come to earth to SAVE all these poor souls who were "slaves to God's Laws", and free them from God's Laws.

And the blasphemy doesn't end there. This same religion also implies that Jesus Himself, as HE walked the earth, was also "Under the Law" which in your stated belief means that HE too, just like the Pharisees, was also a "Slave to God's Law" and was only freed from the clutches of the Yoke of Bondage God placed on His own Son's Neck, after other Slaves to God's Law murdered Him.

They were "slaves" no doubt, and they needed to be set free, for sure. But not from God, and not from God's Laws. Jesus humbled Himself and became obedient to God's Law, and for this reason HE was Freed from death, and given a name above all other names.

Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and "corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem"

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

How can men preach the foolishness that the Pharisees were "slaves to God's Law" given all that Jesus said about them? Of course, if man had listened to Jesus, they would not have adopted the religious philosophies of this world in the first place.

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh "persecuted the son born" by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son" ,

for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son .”

Men have been convinced by the other voice in the garden, that Jesus and the Pharisees were both "Slaves to all of God's Law" before the Pharisees murdered Jesus. You don't understand that Israel rejected the voice of God on Mt. Sinai and requested human Priests to lead them.

Ex. 20: 18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

So God gave them a Priesthood made of corruptible humans, "Till the SEED Should Come". A Priesthood Abraham did not have. And promised of a time "After those days" when there would no longer be a Priesthood of corruptible men to teach them His Laws and provide for the forgiveness of their sins.

"After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more".

The son of the slave woman who was a slave of deception, sin and the Flesh persecuted the son who was a servant to God's Righteousness which is Spirt. This was true for Cain and Able, the 2 Sons of Abraham, and the Slaves of sin, the children of disobedience in Jerusalem who killed the Prophets, and the Holy One of Israel when HE came to them.

A man seeking the Truth of God, would also see this. But because men are here to justify defend and promote their own adopted religion, and are not seeking the Truth of scriptures, they won't see this.

With the leaven, this wickedness in man's heart, "Jesus came to Free men from God's Laws" the entire lump is leavened. Every verse they read is infected with this evil to the point that hearing they will not hear, and seeing they will not see.

This is why Jesus warned to "Take Heed" of the "many" who come in His Name.

 

[Studyman]

None of that is even remotely close to what we are discussing. Christmas is not a Biblically mandated holiday, but there is nothing wrong with celebrating it. Hanukkah is not a mandated holiday according to the Law of Moses, but Jesus celebrated it (John 10:22-23).

This is what I mean about using Scripture that can be twisted to support the religious traditions of men. There is nothing in the entire Bible that says, suggests or even implies that Jesus observed manmade high days, not even in John 10. He didn't Speak even ONE WORD about the high day, what it meant. There is no reference to it anywhere in the entire Bible. In fact, HE said flat out that the Jews who were observing this manmade high day, were not His Sheep. In contrast, these men of Faith in the church of God, who honored God in HIS Feast of Weeks or Pentecost, they received the Holy Spirit, as Peter says all men receive who obey God.

So there is no Biblical Truth to the statement, "Jesus Celebrated it" regarding "Hanukkah", even though "MANY" who come in Christ's Name, preach that HE did. He was in town teaching, just as on other days. Like Christmas it is a Shadow of nothing, it is not a "Feast of the Lord", it was not given by God and there is "ZERO" evidence anywhere in Scriptures that Jesus or any servant of God's Righteousness "Celebrated it".

This is simply undeniable Biblical Truth. But to justify Christmas, after rejecting all of the Feasts of the Lord, "many" who come in Christ's Name, "twist" this Scripture. "There is nothing wrong with observing ancient pagan high days created by this world's religions, Jesus did it."

But there is no evidence that Jesus followed the religion of the children of the devil, and "observed" manmade religious high days they created.

This is simply undeniable truth.

 

[Studyman]

So there is a difference between works one does to earn salvation versus obedience to God's will. This is a distinction amy refuse to make and seem to want to make obedience to God's will a work of merit.

I think the issue with the Pharisees that Paul was dealing with, was centered around the Priesthood "Works" which were required for forgiveness in the Law and Prophets, which they had corrupted. According to their religion, if a man sinned, he could have his sins removed, or as it is written, he could be justified, (Made Just) by adopting the Pharisees religion, and relying on them to perform their version of specific "works" set forth by Moses for the removal of sins. In other words, they were promoting men to be Justified by "works of the Law".

We can find what these "works" were by simply asking the question, "What Works did Moses require a common man to do, when he found he had sinned"?

I don't think it had anything to do with the Good Works God created beforehand, that His people should walk in them. Or the commandments of God Jesus said to keep, if we are to inherit life. Nor do these "works" Paul spoke about have anything to do with the Law he said the "doers of" shall be justified by.

I believe the "many" who come in Christ's Name that Jesus warned about, conflate the Commandments, Judgments and Statutes of God, with the temporary Priesthood that was prophesied to change. But it's pretty simple to understand, once a person realizes that the Pharisees lived in Transgression of God's Laws by their own religious traditions. Basically saying, "So what if I sinned, I'll just take a goat to the Levite Priest and kill it, and my sin will be removed. Therefore "earning" their Salvation by "works of the Law". It's kind of silly to promote the religious philosophy that the Pharisees were promoting obedience to God, as we are shown over and over that they rejected God's Laws. Nevertheless, that is the foundation of many of this world's religions.

If I steal, and am called to repentance, I would "Go and Steal no more", Yes? Did I earn favor from God for following the Christ's instruction?

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Why would I not want to merit favor with God? Jesus did.

John 8: 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for (Because) I do always those things that please him.

I enjoy your perspective, and it is certainly good to talk about this stuff, in my view.

 

[360watt]

Before conversion, every person is dead in sin. Every one. We are walking corpses spiritually speaking. So before conversion, any works we do for God are just 'putting perfume on a corpse' .

So there is no way any kind of work of effort for God can lead to conversion. It's got to be all God 100 percent saving you, not you ...dead in sin, trying to gain conversion. It just cannot happen.

This is what is key... There is nothing inherintly good about just being human. We are all tainted, sinful before conversion and even after conversion. The difference being after conversion our spirit is cleansed and sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit.

This allows us to then serve God..because it is possible to do it with the substitutionary sacrifice in place.

We can obey the command to believe in Jesus.... But obedience to laws before conversion does nothing and is just making a corpse look nice.

 

[Seabass]

I think the issue with the Pharisees that Paul was dealing with, was centered around the Priesthood "Works" which were required for forgiveness in the Law and Prophets, which they had corrupted. According to their religion, if a man sinned, he could have his sins removed, or as it is written, he could be justified, (Made Just) by adopting the Pharisees religion, and relying on them to perform their version of specific "works" set forth by Moses for the removal of sins. In other words, they were promoting men to be Justified by "works of the Law".

We can find what these "works" were by simply asking the question, "What Works did Moses require a common man to do, when he found he had sinned"?

I don't think it had anything to do with the Good Works God created beforehand, that His people should walk in them. Or the commandments of God Jesus said to keep, if we are to inherit life. Nor do these "works" Paul spoke about have anything to do with the Law he said the "doers of" shall be justified by.

I believe the "many" who come in Christ's Name that Jesus warned about, conflate the Commandments, Judgments and Statutes of God, with the temporary Priesthood that was prophesied to change. But it's pretty simple to understand, once a person realizes that the Pharisees lived in Transgression of God's Laws by their own religious traditions. Basically saying, "So what if I sinned, I'll just take a goat to the Levite Priest and kill it, and my sin will be removed. Therefore "earning" their Salvation by "works of the Law". It's kind of silly to promote the religious philosophy that the Pharisees were promoting obedience to God, as we are shown over and over that they rejected God's Laws. Nevertheless, that is the foundation of many of this world's religions.

If I steal, and am called to repentance, I would "Go and Steal no more", Yes? Did I earn favor from God for following the Christ's instruction?

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Why would I not want to merit favor with God? Jesus did.

John 8: 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for (Because) I do always those things that please him.

I enjoy your perspective, and it is certainly good to talk about this stuff, in my view.

I see when James said by works a man is justified and Paulk said works do not justify, they were not talking about the same kind of works. James was speaking about obedience that justifies whereas Paul in Rom 3 was speaking about works of the OT law. That law required the Jew to keep ALL of the law sinlessly perfect in order to be justified by that law, they had to keep the "whole law" (Gal 5:3) must "continue in all things" (Gal 3:9) for just one sin brought the curse of the law upon one.

If the Jew could keep the OT law sinlessly perfect then he would earn God's favor..."Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." (Rom 4:4). The word "worketh" referring to the Jew keeping the whole law perfectly, to such a man God would owe aquittal for such a man that is sinlessly perfect needs no grace. But the Jew could not keep it perfectly no matter how hard they tried thereby the OT law left the Jew just as unjustified as the Gentile (Rom 3:9).

One commentator (Coffman) put it this way:
"This verse is a simple statement of the truth that if one’s hope of salvation is based upon his having kept the law of Moses perfectly, then such a person could claim that God owed him salvation; and it would not be by virtue of God’s grace at all in such an event. To be sure, no person could possibly achieve such a thing as perfect fulfillment of the law. No objection can be raised to what Paul here stated. It is what people declare that Paul meant which outrages every careful student of God’s word. Some of the false deductions that people have thought they derived from this verse are:

That salvation does not depend upon any human effort.

That there is nothing anyone can do to be saved.

That faith and works are opposites.

That obeying the gospel makes man his own Saviour. Etc.

We shall note each of these.

That salvation does not depend upon any human effort. If this were true, all people would be saved; and, if human effort as a precondition of salvation is not involved, why did Jesus teach that many people will be lost (Matthew 7:13,14)? It is a fact that no amount of human effort can earn salvation; but no person with even a casual knowledge of the Bible could possibly have the impression that salvation is unconditionally bestowed upon the entire human race. If so bestowed, it would be universal; but Christ spoke of the narrow gate and the broad way leading to the destruction of many.

That there is nothing anyone can do to be saved. If such is true, what did Peter mean by "Save yourselves from this crooked generation" (Acts 2:40). A multitude of people heard Peter preach the first sermon of the gospel age; and at the end of it, having believed all that Peter preached, and thus having believed in Christ, they cried out, "What shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). Wouldn’t it have been a wonderful opportunity for Peter to have said, "There is nothing you can do to be saved"? But he said no such thing, but this: "Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you" (Acts 2:38).

That faith and works are opposites. On the other hand, they are intimates; and James declared that faith cannot even exist apart from works, except in a barren and dead condition, insufficient to save (James 2:14-26). Faith without works is dead, useless for anything, much less for salvation.

Upon the basis of such considerations, people ought not therefore to impute any teaching to Paul in this place that would make his words say that God will impute righteousness to any person who will not obey him, to the persons who simply do nothing except believe.

That obeying the gospel makes man his own Saviour. This confuses two truths: (1) that when one has done everything that he can, it does not merit salvation, and he is still an unprofitable servant (Luke 17:10); and (2) that obeying the gospel is a condition div4nely imposed and made prerequisite to salvation; all who do not fulfill this condition will be lost (2 Thessalonians 1:8,9); therefore, in a sense, but only in a sense, people will save themselves when they obey the gospel. It is scriptural to speak thus, for Peter did it on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:40). In the more exalted sense of actually procuring the discharge of man’s sins, Christ alone saves."

Lastly, John's parents lived under the OT law and Luke 1 :6 says of them;
"And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Blameless here does not mean they kept the OT law perfectly sinless, but they had a faithful obedience in keeping the law....."walking in all the commandments and ordinances" meaning they keep those OT sacrifices and found forgiveness of sins. Per Rom 4:4 had they kept the law sinlessly perfect, then their reward would have been owed to them by God and not of grace for sinlessly perfect people need no grace.

 

[Studyman]

I see when James said by works a man is justified and Paulk said works do not justify, they were not talking about the same kind of works. James was speaking about obedience that justifies whereas Paul in Rom 3 was speaking about works of the OT law. That law required the Jew to keep ALL of the law sinlessly perfect in order to be justified by that law, they had to keep the "whole law" (Gal 5:3) must "continue in all things" (Gal 3:9) for just one sin brought the curse of the law upon one.

This is why I posted, because I don't believe the Scriptures bear this doctrine out, although it is taught by "many" who come in Christ's Name.

If a man relied on the sacrificial "works" that Moses prescribed before sins could be forgiven, (Works of the Law) then he would be obligated to keep the "Whole Law", because the blood of animals cannot take away sin. And since he already has sinned, he is cursed above all men, and doomed to death because his sin remains. This is the "Works of the Law" for justification Paul speaks to. This is easy found by asking the question I posed at you, and then believing the answer. The implication that the Pharisees were trying to get Jews to Love God, and Love their neighbors, and the OT Law teaches, is foolishness. And Moses never prescribed these "works" to the man that sinned. Answering the question I posed, brings this into focus. But I have found that "many" will not even address the question, much less answer it.

Nevertheless, this is the Works of the Law" the Pharisees were promoting, that Paul is speaking to.

But if a man trusted in God;

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And God's Son who HE sent.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And Paul who this Christ sent;

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and "turn to God", and do works meet for repentance.

And again;

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The statement

whereas Paul in Rom 3 was speaking about works of the OT law. That law required the Jew to keep ALL of the law sinlessly perfect in order to be justified by that law, they had to keep the "whole law"

This is not based on what the OT law teaches.

Duet. 4: 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, "thou shalt find him", if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

So God has always allowed for men to repent and turn to Him. Not with their lips, but with their hearts. The entire Bible teaches this, especially Paul. The Pharisees didn't promote repentance. They promoted their own religious philosophies, Commandments, traditions and doctrines of men. They rejected God's commandments, and His mercy, and promoted their own version of the Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for justification.

I was hoping you might look into this yourself, as Jesus instructed. "Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness".

And "Take Heed" of the teaching of "Many" who come in His Name.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Seabass]

Before conversion, every person is dead in sin. Every one. We are walking corpses spiritually speaking. So before conversion, any works we do for God are just 'putting perfume on a corpse' .

So there is no way any kind of work of effort for God can lead to conversion. It's got to be all God 100 percent saving you, not you ...dead in sin, trying to gain conversion. It just cannot happen.

This is what is key... There is nothing inherintly good about just being human. We are all tainted, sinful before conversion and even after conversion. The difference being after conversion our spirit is cleansed and sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit.

This allows us to then serve God..because it is possible to do it with the substitutionary sacrifice in place.

We can obey the command to believe in Jesus.... But obedience to laws before conversion does nothing and is just making a corpse look nice.

---such an idea makes God culpable for the lost when He has no such culpability.

---no one is born dead in sin. Such an idea makes men a passive guilty victim of sin rather than the active, willful perpetrator of sin where guilt of sin results in one's active choice in committing sin and not passively born guilty having committed no sin.

--spiritually dead does not mean man is unable to do anything. Spiritually dead cannot be equated to physically dead. Those in Acts 2 to whom Peter preached to were lost, they were spiritually dead but they were able and willing to listen to Peter, understand what Peter said, be pricked in their hearts and obey Peter's command for them to repent and be baptized. Hence it was through Peter's preaching (1 Cor 1:21 - preaching saves) that those people hearing the saving gospel message (gospel is God's power unto salvation Rom 1:16) which they obeyed bringing about their conversion.

--Eph 1 Paul is addressing the group Chrisitan and only those in this group are sealed, hence becoming sealed and remaining sealed is 100% conditional upon one becoming part of the group and faithfully remaining in this group. Those who become unfaithful will fall from the group. While the group remains sealed those that fall from it do not for Paul never speaks of the idea of individuals being UNconditionally separate and apart from the group or individuals being UNconditionally sealed regardless of how one lives his life.

 

[Seabass]

This is why I posted, because I don't believe the Scriptures bear this doctrine out, although it is taught by "many" who come in Christ's Name.

If a man relied on the sacrificial "works" that Moses prescribed before sins could be forgiven, (Works of the Law) then he would be obligated to keep the "Whole Law", because the blood of animals cannot take away sin. And since he already has sinned, he is cursed above all men, and doomed to death because his sin remains. This is the "Works of the Law" for justification Paul speaks to. This is easy found by asking the question I posed at you, and then believing the answer. The implication that the Pharisees were trying to get Jews to Love God, and Love their neighbors, and the OT Law teaches, is foolishness. And Moses never prescribed these "works" to the man that sinned. Answering the question I posed, brings this into focus. But I have found that "many" will not even address the question, much less answer it.

Nevertheless, this is the Works of the Law" the Pharisees were promoting, that Paul is speaking to.

But if a man trusted in God;

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And God's Son who HE sent.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And Paul who this Christ sent;

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and "turn to God", and do works meet for repentance.

And again;

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The statement


This is not based on what the OT law teaches.

Duet. 4: 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, "thou shalt find him", if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

So God has always allowed for men to repent and turn to Him. Not with their lips, but with their hearts. The entire Bible teaches this, especially Paul. The Pharisees didn't promote repentance. They promoted their own religious philosophies, Commandments, traditions and doctrines of men. They rejected God's commandments, and His mercy, and promoted their own version of the Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for justification.

I was hoping you might look into this yourself, as Jesus instructed. "Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness".

And "Take Heed" of the teaching of "Many" who come in His Name.

Thanks for the reply.

The OT law did require of the Jew to keep all of it perfectly in order to be justified by it. This is why in Galatians, Paul condemns those Christians who allowed themselves to be lead astray by false teachers taking them back to the OT law. Paul point is why did you leave the NT that can justify you by a simple obedient faith and go back to the OT law that cannot justify you for it requires you to keep all of it perfectly.

Paul points out in Gal 3:9 one must continue in ALL THINGS of the law to be justified by it. Hence the law was "not of faith but in them that do them". Hence the law did not even require faith to be justified by it, but required just a faithless, robotic keeping of all the law perfectly was all that was needed to be justified by it...but under the NT the just shall live by faith. "The Law did not even require faith, as seen in the quotation Paul gave here from Leviticus 18:5, the meaning of which may be paraphrased, "No matter about faith; do the Law and live." This was the essence of Judaism." (Coffman). Faith has no value in a system as the OT law that required flawless law keeping to be justified by it. The person who seeks justification by the law must keep it all perfectly for the law showed no mercy/no grace, it condmened by just committing one sin. The person seeking justification by faith understands he is a sinner unable to be perfectly sinless, hence seeks justification by an obedient faith which includes repenting of sins for those time he does sin.

 

[Studyman]

The OT law did require of the Jew to keep all of it perfectly in order to be justified by it. This is why in Galatians, Paul condemns those Christians who allowed themselves to be lead astray by false teachers taking them back to the OT law. Paul point is why did you leave the NT that can justify you by a simple obedient faith and go back to the OT law that cannot justify you for it requires you to keep all of it perfectly.

I understand your argument, I have heard it promoted by the religions of this world God placed me in, since I was a child. I am simply stating that when ALL of the Holy Scriptures are considered, as the Christ, and Paul instructed us to consider, this argument falls apart.

#1. Your argument is founded on the belief that the Pharisees were promoting God's Laws. But this is not Biblically True at all. Just the Word of the Jesus of the Bible alone, "EVERY WORD" He Spoke that defines the religious sect of the Pharisees teaches us the Pharisees were not teaching for doctrines, the Commandments of God. Therefore, unless Jesus lied to us all, and I don't believe HE did, the Pharisees were not trying to turn the Galatians "back to the OT Law".

#2. There is not ONE place in the Bible, NOT ONE, where Moses tells a man who needs justification, "If you Transgress God's LAW, you must "keep all of it perfectly in order to be justified". But Moses does tell us what the "LAW" required a man to do, "if a common man was found in sin". I asked you to find this requirement, so you would know what "works of the Law" the Pharisees were promoting. We know they were promoting their version of this Law, because they sold oxen, sheep, goats and turtle doves in the temple. But you have completely ignored the question, and the answer that is easily found in your very own Bible. I'm not sure why a man would do this?

#3. Paul advocated that the Body of Christ "Yield themselves" Servants to Obey God, and to become "Servants of God's Righteousness". He taught in Romans 2, that the "doers of the Law shall be justified", not the hearers like the Pharisees. He taught, Jew or Gentile means nothing, but Keeping the Commandments of God. The Apostles turned the Gentile converts away from the Pharisees religion, and towards the Law of Moses being read every Sabbath day in the Temple in Acts 15. But now you are promoting a religious philosophy of this world that the Pharisees were promoting God's Laws, and the Apostles, including Paul is teaching against God's Laws.

There is a whole lot more evidence which exposes the popular religious philosophy you have adopted, as from man and not from the Christ "of the Bible". I am simply sharing them with you, in the hope you might consider the warnings of the Christ "of the Bible" and take heed of the "many" who comes in His Name.

Paul points out in Gal 3:9 one must continue in ALL THINGS of the law to be justified by it. Hence the law was "not of faith but in them that do them".

Again, if you would just ask yourself, "what did Moses say was required for a man who sinned, in order for this man to be justified. There was a "Law" "ADDED until the SEED should Come, that was required for sins to be forgiven. It's in your own Bible, and the Pharisees were still promoting their version of it. Why will you not even look at this Light.

Hence the law did not even require faith to be justified by it, but required just a faithless, robotic keeping of all the law perfectly was all that was needed to be justified by it...but under the NT the just shall live by faith.

LOL, if a man walked in God's Law perfectly, there was no Need for the sacrificial "Works of the Law" to justify him. And if he didn't. He would just bring a goat to the Levite Priest, and presto, he was justified. Why will you not even address the Levitical Priesthood that was prophesied to change?

"The Law did not even require faith, as seen in the quotation Paul gave here from Leviticus 18:5, the meaning of which may be paraphrased, "No matter about faith; do the Law and live." This was the essence of Judaism." (Coffman).

What is Judaism? Was Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men, all Judaizers? Was Jesus a Judaizer? Or were the Pharisees Judaizers?

I see you are not keen on answering questions. But this is an important topic, and these are important questions.

Did Zacharias have Faith in the Christ? And Simeon and Anna, did they have Faith?

I look forward to your answers.

Faith has no value in a system as the OT law that required flawless law keeping to be justified by it. The person who seeks justification by the law must keep it all perfectly for the law showed no mercy/no grace, it condmened by just committing one sin.

I don't know what God you are talking about. But it's Not the God of the Bible.


Ex. 34: 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Duet. 4: 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Neh. 9: 16 But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments, 17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.

18 Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said, This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations; 19 Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go. 20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst. 21 Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.

This is why I came out of Mainstream Christianity 30 years ago. Because of the horrible falsehoods they preach about the One True God, and the "many" who are snared by them and their seductive religions, to promote their awful religious philosophy.

I certainly hope you might consider answering my questions, and engage in an honest back and forth..

The person seeking justification by faith understands he is a sinner unable to be perfectly sinless, hence seeks justification by an obedient faith which includes repenting of sins for those time he does sin.

But if a religion transgresses God Commandments by their own religious traditions, promotes things about God which are not Biblically true, and leads people into rejecting the Words of the One True God the Jesus "of the Bible" said to know was eternal life, then how is this any different than the Pharisees who also "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate?"

 

[Doug Brents]

So my interest here is different than yours. You are here to defend and promote the doctrines and philosophies of a specific religious sect that you have adopted.

Wrong again!
I have not adopted any doctrines or philosophies of religious sects (unless you are calling God's Church a sect). What I am promoting is God's Word, and the proper understanding of it. Nothing I have said comes from my own thoughts; everything I have said comes from what God has said in the Bible.

Namely that Jesus came to "Free you from God's instruction in righteousness" AKA "God's Law". And as a result of this philosophy that you were born into and have adopted, you only speak to scripture that "can be" interpreted to promote your specific Philosophy, that Jesus came to "Free you from God's Laws".

No. Jesus did not free us from God's Laws. He freed us from the Old Covenant, the covenant made with Abraham, and renewed with the Israelite people down to Moses, to whom God gave His written Law. God's law has changed many times throughout man's history. God's commands were different to Adam, than they were to Abraham, than they were to Moses, than they are to us.

In this case, in order to defend your stated religious philosophy, you must interpret "under the law" as meaning under the requirement to obey any and all of God's Law that was given to Israel "from Mt. Sinai".

Yes, ALL of the Law of Moses, and the Old Covenant, were wiped away in Christ Jesus. Scripture is quite explicit in saying that.

You also must also interpret " Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because "she is in slavery with her children." as the Pharisees and the Jews in Jerusalem in Paul's Time, being in "Slavery to God's Laws". Jesus' Words alone expose this doctrine and from below and not above.

Not just the Pharisees, but all of Israel were under slavery to the Law.

You must also ignore and omit the Biblical Fact that Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, and God's Holy Sabbath commandment was given to Abraham's Children before Mt. Sinai. And also that the 10 commandments were given and broken before the Levitical Priesthood was established.

No, this is not ignored, because, as I have already said, circumcision was given long before any of what you mention here, and circumcision was also removed and made obsolete in Christ.

So to defend and promote your adopted religious philosophy that Jesus came to "Free you from God's Law", you must interpret the Law and Prophets as teaching that God led Israel out of Egypt, not to free them from sin, deception and oppression, but that God deceived the Children of Abraham, and lied to them to trick them into following Him so HE could place an unbearable "Yoke of Bondage" on the necks of Abraham's Children and force them into being "Slaves to God's Law".

No. God did not, because He cannot, lie to the children of Abraham. The Law was a "bondage" to the Israelites in the same way that school is bondage to most children today. The law was a "schoolmaster" (Gal 3:24-29), and was not intended to survive past Jesus. God intended it to be limited.

And when Jesus came to Jerusalem, these poor Jews were still held captive by God, to His Laws" forced into living under unjust, unbearable commandments, statutes and judgments that God lied to Abraham's Children about, telling them these LAWs were given them for their own wellbeing and they were perfectly capable of walking in them.

And because God is so unjust, His Son had to risk HIS Life, and become a man and come to earth to SAVE all these poor souls who were "slaves to God's Laws", and free them from God's Laws.

And the blasphemy doesn't end there. This same religion also implies that Jesus Himself, as HE walked the earth, was also "Under the Law" which in your stated belief means that HE too, just like the Pharisees, was also a "Slave to God's Law" and was only freed from the clutches of the Yoke of Bondage God placed on His own Son's Neck, after other Slaves to God's Law murdered Him.

They were "slaves" no doubt, and they needed to be set free, for sure. But not from God, and not from God's Laws. Jesus humbled Himself and became obedient to God's Law, and for this reason HE was Freed from death, and given a name above all other names.

You call yourself "STUDYman" and yet you come up with this nonsense? There is no "STUDY" in this trash. There is no blasphemy in saying what God's Word says. But there is delusion in those who cling to the Old Covenant as the means to salvation. Salvation is not found in the Old Covenant; only in Christ, and if you cling to the Old Covenant then Christ is meaningless and worthless to you.

This is what I mean about using Scripture that can be twisted to support the religious traditions of men. There is nothing in the entire Bible that says, suggests or even implies that Jesus observed manmade high days, not even in John 10. He didn't Speak even ONE WORD about the high day, what it meant. There is no reference to it anywhere in the entire Bible. In fact, HE said flat out that the Jews who were observing this manmade high day, were not His Sheep. In contrast, these men of Faith in the church of God, who honored God in HIS Feast of Weeks or Pentecost, they received the Holy Spirit, as Peter says all men receive who obey God.

So there is no Biblical Truth to the statement, "Jesus Celebrated it" regarding "Hanukkah", even though "MANY" who come in Christ's Name, preach that HE did. He was in town teaching, just as on other days. Like Christmas it is a Shadow of nothing, it is not a "Feast of the Lord", it was not given by God and there is "ZERO" evidence anywhere in Scriptures that Jesus or any servant of God's Righteousness "Celebrated it".

This is simply undeniable Biblical Truth. But to justify Christmas, after rejecting all of the Feasts of the Lord, "many" who come in Christ's Name, "twist" this Scripture. "There is nothing wrong with observing ancient pagan high days created by this world's religions, Jesus did it."

But there is no evidence that Jesus followed the religion of the children of the devil, and "observed" manmade religious high days they created.

This is simply undeniable truth.

I do not justify Christmas, or Hanukkah, or Passover, or Easter (or any other holiday of any stripe) as manditory or even righteous religious holidays. NONE of them are mandated for us to keep today, but none of them are "evil" just because some of them were instituted by man either. There is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating man made holidays for the sake of celebrating a day, but there is evil in making an idol of that day (which is something that I do not do for any day (including sabbath or passover).

Just as Paul told us, if you hold one day as sacred then to you that day is sacred, but if another holds all days as equal then to him all days are equal. There is no sin in holding the day sacred, and there is no sin in holding all days as equal, as long as either position is done to the Lord (Rom 14:1-9).

Now, is John 10 absolute proof that Jesus celebrated Hanukkah? No. But the fact remains that He was in Jerusalem at the time of the "Festival of Lights" or the "Festival of Dedication" (both of which are names for Hanukah), and this is a departure from His normal MO, since He spent most of His ministry outside of Jerusalem. So it is at least conceivable (although I believe that it is very clear) that He was in Jerusalem to celebrate the Festival since He did not do anything by chance or accident.

 

[360watt]

---such an idea makes God culpable for the lost when He has no such culpability.

---no one is born dead in sin. Such an idea makes men a passive guilty victim of sin rather than the active, willful perpetrator of sin where guilt of sin results in one's active choice in committing sin and not passively born guilty having committed no sin.

--spiritually dead does not mean man is unable to do anything. Spiritually dead cannot be equated to physically dead. Those in Acts 2 to whom Peter preached to were lost, they were spiritually dead but they were able and willing to listen to Peter, understand what Peter said, be pricked in their hearts and obey Peter's command for them to repent and be baptized. Hence it was through Peter's preaching (1 Cor 1:21 - preaching saves) that those people hearing the saving gospel message (gospel is God's power unto salvation Rom 1:16) which they obeyed bringing about their conversion.

--Eph 1 Paul is addressing the group Chrisitan and only those in this group are sealed, hence becoming sealed and remaining sealed is 100% conditional upon one becoming part of the group and faithfully remaining in this group. Those who become unfaithful will fall from the group. While the group remains sealed those that fall from it do not for Paul never speaks of the idea of individuals being UNconditionally separate and apart from the group or individuals being UNconditionally sealed regardless of how one lives his life.

I'm not a Calvinist so I do believe someone has to believe in Jesus before conversion. No salvation before belief. But before conversion... All are sinful . And after. So again .. self effort... following laws. . etc... can do nothing to gain conversion.

 

[Seabass]

I understand your argument, I have heard it promoted by the religions of this world God placed me in, since I was a child. I am simply stating that when ALL of the Holy Scriptures are considered, as the Christ, and Paul instructed us to consider, this argument falls apart.

#1. Your argument is founded on the belief that the Pharisees were promoting God's Laws. But this is not Biblically True at all. Just the Word of the Jesus of the Bible alone, "EVERY WORD" He Spoke that defines the religious sect of the Pharisees teaches us the Pharisees were not teaching for doctrines, the Commandments of God. Therefore, unless Jesus lied to us all, and I don't believe HE did, the Pharisees were not trying to turn the Galatians "back to the OT Law".

#2. There is not ONE place in the Bible, NOT ONE, where Moses tells a man who needs justification, "If you Transgress God's LAW, you must "keep all of it perfectly in order to be justified". But Moses does tell us what the "LAW" required a man to do, "if a common man was found in sin". I asked you to find this requirement, so you would know what "works of the Law" the Pharisees were promoting. We know they were promoting their version of this Law, because they sold oxen, sheep, goats and turtle doves in the temple. But you have completely ignored the question, and the answer that is easily found in your very own Bible. I'm not sure why a man would do this?

#3. Paul advocated that the Body of Christ "Yield themselves" Servants to Obey God, and to become "Servants of God's Righteousness". He taught in Romans 2, that the "doers of the Law shall be justified", not the hearers like the Pharisees. He taught, Jew or Gentile means nothing, but Keeping the Commandments of God. The Apostles turned the Gentile converts away from the Pharisees religion, and towards the Law of Moses being read every Sabbath day in the Temple in Acts 15. But now you are promoting a religious philosophy of this world that the Pharisees were promoting God's Laws, and the Apostles, including Paul is teaching against God's Laws.

There is a whole lot more evidence which exposes the popular religious philosophy you have adopted, as from man and not from the Christ "of the Bible". I am simply sharing them with you, in the hope you might consider the warnings of the Christ "of the Bible" and take heed of the "many" who comes in His Name.




Again, if you would just ask yourself, "what did Moses say was required for a man who sinned, in order for this man to be justified. There was a "Law" "ADDED until the SEED should Come, that was required for sins to be forgiven. It's in your own Bible, and the Pharisees were still promoting their version of it. Why will you not even look at this Light.



LOL, if a man walked in God's Law perfectly, there was no Need for the sacrificial "Works of the Law" to justify him. And if he didn't. He would just bring a goat to the Levite Priest, and presto, he was justified. Why will you not even address the Levitical Priesthood that was prophesied to change?



What is Judaism? Was Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men, all Judaizers? Was Jesus a Judaizer? Or were the Pharisees Judaizers?

I see you are not keen on answering questions. But this is an important topic, and these are important questions.

Did Zacharias have Faith in the Christ? And Simeon and Anna, did they have Faith?

I look forward to your answers.



I don't know what God you are talking about. But it's Not the God of the Bible.


Ex. 34: 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Duet. 4: 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Neh. 9: 16 But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments, 17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.

18 Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said, This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations; 19 Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go. 20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst. 21 Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.

This is why I came out of Mainstream Christianity 30 years ago. Because of the horrible falsehoods they preach about the One True God, and the "many" who are snared by them and their seductive religions, to promote their awful religious philosophy.

I certainly hope you might consider answering my questions, and engage in an honest back and forth..



But if a religion transgresses God Commandments by their own religious traditions, promotes things about God which are not Biblically true, and leads people into rejecting the Words of the One True God the Jesus "of the Bible" said to know was eternal life, then how is this any different than the Pharisees who also "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate?"

I'm not sure what your point is but;

The law of Moses has nothing to do with NT Christianity. Col 2:14; Heb 7:12
The law of Moses cannot justify. Galatians, Heb 10
Going back to the OT law looking for justification from it is sinful Rom 7