In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is the content of His gift of salvation, which absolutely does involve our participation. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and will remain under it for as long as He remains eternally sovereign. Works salvation is the position that we are required to have first done a certain amount of works in order to earn our salvation as a wage, which is not a position that I've seen anyone in this thread support. If God is legalistic for requiring His people to obey His law and Jesus is legalistic for setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to obey it, then we should all be legalists, but I don't think that is what legalism refers to.
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
Seabass
Active Member
Good works cannot save the sinner, the sinner must obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8) to become a Christian THEN the Christian goes about doing good works. (Tts 3:8,14; Jn 15:2). Good works and obedience to God are obviously two different things but some people do not want to make that distinction.
Abraham was justified by works and the TYPE of works Abraham did to be justified was obedience to God's will..."Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (what kind of works?) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (justified by obedient works in doing God's will, not good works" (James 2:21)
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Seabass
Active Member
A saving faith includes obedience to God's will. What good is a faith that does not obey God's will? It's good for nothing, James says it is dead.
Lev 17:11 says the life of the flesh is in the blood. Likewise, the life of faith is in the obedient works.
Take away the blood, flesh is dead. Likewise take away the obedience, faith is dead.
Cannot have one (faith) without the other (obedience) for it takes both to have spiritual life.
Cannot have flesh without the blood for it takes both to have physical life.
It states that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, so he was saved by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not as the result of his works insofar as they were not earning his salvation as a wage. I don't see how you can make a distinction between obedience to God and obedience to God's commands to do good works. It is God's will for us to do good works.
charismaticlady
Active Member
He's right when he said: "so that God can re-create us and renew us so that we're able to be obedient and to do good works." We must actually be in the New Covenant and abiding IN Jesus with His Spirit to be able to hear God's voice to know His will and understand His word and what He means and not what some denomination says God means.
That's what happened to me. On my own I couldn't obey thou shalt not commit adultery. So I told God I realized I was too weak to be good, so for Him to somehow take him away from me, and within the week God did. It was the first prayer in 30 years of going to church that was answered. Then He baptized me with the Holy Spirit and spoke 8 sentences to me which I remember word for word 46 years later, and since then He tells me His will so that 100% of my prayers using His words are immediately answered. He does it all as the Author and Finisher of my faith. I just have to obey the laws written on my conscience that are now a part of me.
cc: @Overjoyed
Seabass
Active Member
Obedience cannot earn the free gift of justification but obedience is a necessary condition God has placed upon receiveing this free gift.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Yikes! You've got the cart before the horse! You have to confess that you can't be good in your own strength, that you need Him to save you from your desire to sin, and THAT'S when you will be cleansed and are filled with the empowering Holy Spirit. Your trying to be good from a sin nature won't work. The sin nature will dirty your righteousness into dirty rags. When Jesus cleanses the sin out of your nature and frees you from sin, you are no longer a sinner, but a child of God 1 John 3:1 And as far as obedience. That's easy when you have a righteous nature that wants to obey. But you should only obey your conscience where the HS lives and has written the laws you are to keep.
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Obedience itself is the content of the free gift.
Seabass
Active Member
--Man has the ability to obey, therefore God does not need to enable man to do what man already has the abilty to do.
--There is no baptism with the Holy Spirit today. The one baptism (Eph 4:4-5) in effect today is the water baptism of CHrist's great commission, Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:16.
--God does not speak directly to people today but in thise last days speaks to us by His Son through the written word, the BIble.
--Jesus is the Author and Finisher of the faith, the NT system faith found in the written word.
Seabass
Active Member
--man has no sin nature. Man is capable in choosing to do well or not Gen 4:7.
--Isa 64:5 God meets, entreats those who work righteousnes, Acts 10:35 God accepts those who do righteousness not treated as filthy rags
charismaticlady
Active Member
Did you know that nothing inside of a COVENANT ceases until the covenant, itself, ends. Our New Covenant will not end until we see Him face to face. Scripture talks of the early and latter rain. The Day of Pentecost was the early rain. Then the Church became dry and dead for a long hot summer. But just a little over 100 years ago the latter rain fell, and it fell on me too 46 years ago, and I've lived with God's presence and His miracles all this latter part of my life, and I'm so glad He said what He did to me that day. His promises never fail.
Did you also know that Jesus wrote a letter to the church fathers that came out of the Reformation?
Revelation 3
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
The first part is the first fathers of the Reformation, Martin Luther and John Calvin. There is no life in them.
The purple is 200 years into the Reformation period and that fits John Wesley who was antiCalvinism and started the holiness doctrine that became not only Methodists, but Pentecostals too. We are alive.
charismaticlady
Active Member
God was not counting their sins against them because there was no law. That is why God didn't kill Cain for murder. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
In Acts 10 Peter is talking about the Gentile Christians' works of righteousness. Cornelius already had the Holy Spirit, so his works of righteousness were righteous, not dirty. 1 John 3:10. SB, if you haven't been filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ, you won't belong to Him. Romans 8:9 It won't matter that you've been taught the power of God through His Spirit ceased. The truth is in the Word of God, so you have no excuse.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh. Jesus is coming in less that 10 years from now. There is no time to be overly polite.
I've never heard anyone give the type of answers you are giving. Is that your own doctrine, or which denomination did you learn these false doctrines from?
Seabass
Active Member
Jesus never wrote a letter to any so called "church fathers" of the Reformation.
There has never been but "one faith" and "one body" (church) Eph 4:4-5. Demoninationalism is a construct of man that has no Bible basis.
Paul reminded his Corinthian converts that he espoused them to one husband Jesus Christ, 2 Cor 11:2. Jesus the one Husband has but one bride, the church. Christ is not a spiritual adulterer, a spiritual polygamist married to thousands of brides. This one husband Jesus Christ espoused to one bride is the basis for civil marriage of one man married to one woman.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Some things wrong in this, but for the most part accurate.
Romans was not written to the Churches in Corinth.
But it totally fails to answer the question. I am not asking for a synopsis of the books in which these passages are found, but an analysis of the verses specified, not taken out of context, but looking specifically at these few verses.
Acts 3:19
Rom 10:9-10
What, in these passages, is a condition, and what is the reward for meeting that condition?
Doug Brents
Active Member
Ahh, so Acts and Romans are not Scripture in your opinion? That would explain a lot.
No, these passages are Scripture, and they are significant because they DESTROY your contention that we don't have to physically do anything to receive salvation.
Look at them again, and answer the question please.
Rowan
Active Member
I think it is evident that God’s power to save and transform is linked to his righteousness. Paul speaks of the gospel as “the power of God for salvation” Romans 1:16
Later he says, “the righteousness of God has been manifested” Romans 3:21 Once again we see that it is in His saving action in the sacrifice of Christ That sets us free. Not what we do.
There is a dual emphasis on the activity of God to bring about not only our new status of being justified, but also the power for a new life of obedience. Sharing in both Christ’s death and resurrection, believers have “been set free from sin”. We are no longer enslaved to sin but free to pursue righteous obedience.
First we were set free, then we are able to live obediently in Christ. Both are works of God done on our behalf.
Later he says, “the righteousness of God has been manifested” Romans 3:21 Once again we see that it is in His saving action in the sacrifice of Christ That sets us free. Not what we do.
There is a dual emphasis on the activity of God to bring about not only our new status of being justified, but also the power for a new life of obedience. Sharing in both Christ’s death and resurrection, believers have “been set free from sin”. We are no longer enslaved to sin but free to pursue righteous obedience.
First we were set free, then we are able to live obediently in Christ. Both are works of God done on our behalf.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Revelation 2 and 3 are seven letters from Jesus to these churches. But they are prophetic in a three fold way. Since it is 2000 years ago and we are the closest to the second coming we can look back and see the most important fold - church history.
While Revelation 2 and 3may be prophetic, that don't mean that you can insert anything you want into them willy nilly.
charismaticlady
Active Member
That is so true and why the Great Disappointment happened in 1844.
Burdock
Active Member
Exactly...God’s saving action in Christ, is how we are declared to be legally just, it combines his judgment against sin and his free gift of salvation.
That's God's way. Then there's man's way:
For being ignorant of the righteousness that God ascribes [which makes one acceptable to Him in word, thought, and deed] and seeking to establish a righteousness (a means of salvation) of their own, they did not obey or submit themselves to God’s righteousness. Romans 10:3
A contrast between doing and believing is established in Romans 9:30–33
“They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, ‘Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame’ ”. In trying to establish their own righteousness based on works, people stumble over the Jesus they fail to believe in His work on the cross as being sufficient. In their pursuit of righteousness based on works, they have missed Christ the author and finisher of our faith.
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