"Works Salvation"

[Bronson]

SALVATION: a complete and eternal salvation by God's grace alone, received as the gift of God through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work Ephesians 2:8–9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Soyeong]

After salvation. Don't forget to filthy rags thing.

God does not command filthy rags. In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known. The reality is that the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen. In Titus 2:11-13, it does not say that after we have been said then we will do those works, but rather it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.

Only if you're grasping and straws. Look at that sentence. Why would you want to offset the cost of a gift? If you got to pay for it it's not a gift.

There is no grasping for straws, but rather there is simply the reality that God's gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do works. The point is that it is example of a gift that requires works where the works are not offsetting or paying for the cost of a gift, so we wouldn't want to offset or pay for it. A gift is incompatible with works done to earn a wage, but works can be required for many other reasons that are not incompatible with being part of a gift.

In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, in Romans 2:13, it says that only doers of the law will be justified, and there are many verses like these that show that our salvation requires us to be a doer of the law while there are many other verses that speak against earn our salvation as a wage, so clearly there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage.

 

[Azriel]

Answer this question please. Can you tell me what is the condition (if any) and what is the "reward" (if any) that is listed in these two passages.
Rom 10:9-10
Acts 3:19

The Book of Romans was written by Paul to the churches In Corinth. They were already saved.

It is filled with the great themes of redemption: the guilt of all mankind, our inability to earn favor with God, the redeeming death of Christ, and the free gift of salvation to be received by faith alone.

Acts is a sequel to the life of Christ in the Gospels, and it records the spread of Christianity from Jerusalem to Rome. It is the initiation of Jesus’ Great Commission to make disciples of all nations. Which is a work we're called to do after we are saved.

Acts relates the step-by-step expansion of Christianity westward from Palestine to Italy. It is a record of practicing Christianity under the power of the Holy Spirit. It teaches believers how to live together in meaningful Christian fellowship, sharing freely with one another.

 

[Azriel]

This thread is starting to remind me of that song by Janis Joplin "Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz"

With a big bow around it so I can unwrap it.

 

[Aeliana]

Many believe in a mixed gospel of grace plus works. This does not line up with the good news of the Bible.

I mean that a mixed gospel is that it has the grace of God in it, but it’s an mixture of other things, and it’s usually an mixture of grace and works. God’s grace is there, but you’ve got to be good, and if you’re good enough, you get into Heaven.

 

[Soyeong]

SALVATION: a complete and eternal salvation by God's grace alone, received as the gift of God through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work Ephesians 2:8–9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

While we are not required to have first done a certain amount of works in order to earn our salvation as a wage, that does not mean that our salvation does not require us to do works for some other reason, and there can be many reason for doing works that do not give us any room to boast in ourselves. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our works, doing good works is nevertheless a central part of our salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

While Paul denied in Roman 4:1-5 that we can earn our justification as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified also uphold God's law (Romans 3:31).

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his fact was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expression his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

 

[Soyeong]

Many believe in a mixed gospel of grace plus works. This does not line up with the good news of the Bible.

I mean that a mixed gospel is that it has the grace of God in it, but it’s an mixture of other things, and it’s usually an mixture of grace and works. God’s grace is there, but you’ve got to be good, and if you’re good enough, you get into Heaven.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is adding works to the Gospel of Grace, but rather it is a central part of the Gospel of Grace. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so his Gospel of Grace was on the same page in regard to teaching repentance from our sins. Furthermore, Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel.

In Psalms 119:29, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey his law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works is itself the content of His gift of salvation. So this is not adding works to grace, but rather God is gracious to us by teaching us to do works, and this has nothing to do with trying to be good enough to get into heaven.

 

[Bronson]

Answer this question please. Can you tell me what is the condition (if any) and what is the "reward" (if any) that is listed in these two passages.
Rom 10:9-10
Acts 3:19

let Jesus answer your questions.

One day, some people asked Jesus what they could do to please God: “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus immediately points them to faith: “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” (John 6:28-29). So, the REAL question is about God’s requirements, and Jesus’ answer is that God’s requirement is that you believe in Him.

 

[Bronson]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is adding works to the Gospel of Grace, but rather it is a central part of the Gospel of Grace. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so his Gospel of Grace was on the same page in regard to teaching repentance from our sins. Furthermore, Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel.

In Psalms 119:29, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey his law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works is itself the content of His gift of salvation. So this is not adding works to grace, but rather God is gracious to us by teaching us to do works, and this has nothing to do with trying to be good enough to get into heaven.

And yet work salvation teaches us that we do have to be good enough to earn our salvation which leads to heaven, Eternal life. I don't know how many times it's been posted here but one more won't hurt.

We do good works because we are saved not to become saved. Jesus did all the work for that to happen. After salvation we become obedient servants.

 

[Bronson]

This is just becoming redundant.

 

[Aeliana]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is adding works to the Gospel of Grace, but rather it is a central part of the Gospel of Grace. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so his Gospel of Grace was on the same page in regard to teaching repentance from our sins. Furthermore, Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel.

In Psalms 119:29, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey his law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works is itself the content of His gift of salvation. So this is not adding works to grace, but rather God is gracious to us by teaching us to do works, and this has nothing to do with trying to be good enough to get into heaven.

It's not really that complicated. Definitely not like driving a Ferrari, I probably couldn't figure out how to open the doors. But salvation I do have a pretty good understanding of.

“He who has the Son has the life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.” Now, that’s very straightforward.

“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life” (John 8:12).

​

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:7-8

 

[Soyeong]

It's not really that complicated. Definitely not like driving a Ferrari, I probably couldn't figure out how to open the doors. But salvation I do have a pretty good understanding of.

“He who has the Son has the life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.” Now, that’s very straightforward.

“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life” (John 8:12).

​

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:7-8

The issue is not understanding salvation or understanding how to drive a Ferrari, but that it is an example of how a gift can require works while doing those works has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift. Having the Son, following the Son, and the Son dying for us are all directly connected to our works.

 

[Overjoyed]

The Bible says we are God’s creation, and we must look to our Creator for salvation. It teaches that men and women are sinful and require Salvation. If any person’s sins are not forgiven in this life, he or she will pay the penalty, after death, of eternal separation from God. It's a big issue but work salvation is not going to save you.

We can do a truckload of “good works”, and we still can never measure up. Believe in God is what gets us there.

So what is it that Abraham did when righteousness was credited to him in Genesis 15? He believed God. What what was is it that did Jesus say Abraham had done that the Jews had not done? He believed God.

The gospel tells us to believe John 3:16.

 

[Soyeong]

And yet work salvation teaches us that we do have to be good enough to earn our salvation which leads to heaven, Eternal life. I don't know how many times it's been posted here but one more won't hurt.

We do good works because we are saved not to become saved. Jesus did all the work for that to happen. After salvation we become obedient servants.

There is a huge difference between these two positions:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of God's law.

2.) Our salvation requires us to have first obeyed God's law in order to earn our salvation as the result.

While there are many verses that support #1, there are also many verses that deny #2, so the problem is that people tend to mistake people who believe #1 as believing #2 and try to argue against #1 by citing verses that argue against #2.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so our salvation requires us to choose to participate in this training in accordance with #1, but not in order to earn it as the result. It is neither the case that we are required to have first done works in order to earn our salvation as the result or that we will do works as the result o having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

 

[Overjoyed]

There is a huge difference between these two positions:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of God's law.

2.) Our salvation requires us to have first obeyed God's law in order to earn our salvation as the result.

While there are many verses that support #1, there are also many verses that deny #2, so the problem is that people tend to mistake people who believe #1 as believing #2 and try to argue against #1 by citing verses that argue against #2.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so our salvation requires us to choose to participate in this training in accordance with #1, but not in order to earn it as the result. It is neither the case that we are required to have first done works in order to earn our salvation as the result or that we will do works as the result o having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

O'my I've heard that people that uphold works salvation were like judaizers wanting to put people back under the law.

 

[Soyeong]

The Bible says we are God’s creation, and we must look to our Creator for salvation. It teaches that men and women are sinful and require Salvation. If any person’s sins are not forgiven in this life, he or she will pay the penalty, after death, of eternal separation from God. It's a big issue but work salvation is not going to save you.

We can do a truckload of “good works”, and we still can never measure up. Believe in God is what gets us there.

So what is it that Abraham did when righteousness was credited to him in Genesis 15? He believed God. What what was is it that did Jesus say Abraham had done that the Jews had not done? He believed God.

The gospel tells us to believe John 3:16.

God's law was never given as instructions for how to be good enough to measure up. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to God's law, then they would not have done a good enough job to earn their salvation because God's law was never give as a way of earn our salvation. In Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, God's law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but thinking that obedience to it is about trying to be good enough robs our souls of the rest that it was intended to give us because we will never know whether we had done enough.

It is contradictory for someone to think that we should look to God for salvation, but that we should not look to God instructions for salvation. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, so believing in God is not an alternative to obeying His instructions, but rather obeying His instructions is the way to believe in Him. When we do good works in obedience to God's instructions we are testifying about His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness, we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and that his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

O'my I've heard that people that uphold works salvation were like judaizers wanting to put people back under the law.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a prefect example of how to practice Judaism by living in sinless obedience to God's law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he was an imitator of Christ. So Christ spent his ministry teaching his follower to practice Judaism by word and by example and the problem that Paul had with the Judaizers was not that they thought that Gentiles should follow Christ, but that they were warning to require Gentiles to have first obey works of the law and become circumcised in order to become justified as the result.

In Romana 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law that leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so we are still under the Law of God, but are not under the law of sin.

 

[Seabass]

The Bible says we are God’s creation, and we must look to our Creator for salvation. It teaches that men and women are sinful and require Salvation. If any person’s sins are not forgiven in this life, he or she will pay the penalty, after death, of eternal separation from God. It's a big issue but work salvation is not going to save you.

We can do a truckload of “good works”, and we still can never measure up. Believe in God is what gets us there.

So what is it that Abraham did when righteousness was credited to him in Genesis 15? He believed God. What what was is it that did Jesus say Abraham had done that the Jews had not done? He believed God.

The gospel tells us to believe John 3:16.

Hi,

Good works cannot save anyone....most if not all here agree with that.

The issue is obedience to God's will. Obedience and good works are not the same.

Obedience is what saves Heb 5:9 while living in disobedience saves no one.

 

[Soyeong]

Hi,

Good works cannot save anyone....most if not all here agree with that.

The issue is obedience to God's will. Obedience and good works are not the same.

Obedience is what saves Heb 5:9 while living in disobedience saves no one.

God has straightforwardly made His will known through what He has instructed in His law (Psalms 40:8), so it is obedience to God's will to do good works. The significance of doing good works is not in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather the significance of doing good work is that it expresses our faith, and it is by that faith that we are saved. Abraham was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith (James 2:21-24), but not insofar as they were earning a wage (Romans 4:1-5).

 

[Aeliana]

Hi,

Good works cannot save anyone....most if not all here agree with that.

The issue is obedience to God's will. Obedience and good works are not the same.

Obedience is what saves Heb 5:9 while living in disobedience saves no one.

The question is how obedient are sinners, do they have the ability to be obedient? It boils down to hearing and believing the gospel. Then you can work on obedience.

 

[Overjoyed]

Hi,

Good works cannot save anyone....most if not all here agree with that.

The issue is obedience to God's will. Obedience and good works are not the same.

Obedience is what saves Heb 5:9 while living in disobedience saves no one.

Saved by Grace Through Faith. Grace is what saves us, through faith, so that God can re-create us and renew us so that we're able to be obedient and to do good works.

Some have the mistaken belief that they have a part to play in the Saving Grace God bestows upon us. They even say that accepting the free gift of salvation is somehow a work that they need to participate in. Unwrapping the gift I've is what I've read in this thread. Or taking a Ferrari for a spoon. Or we need to go back under the law. Which is basically what works salvation is, "Legalism".