Bob Carabbio
Active Member
As long as there's FAITH to begin with (Eph 2:8,9). FAITH results in being Born Again, and Born Again will result in Works.
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not doing good works. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. Our obedience to God's law is about God giving us the gift of salvation, not about us earning salvation as a wage from God.
Clifford
Active Member
Where does belief take place? Believe can't perform any action. It's part of a thought process. It happens in your mind.
- The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another.
- Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something.
- Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.
Clifford
Active Member
Not for me. For me it's the real deal. I can feel it all over me. It's Jesus on the inside working on the outside. But hey... stick to your concept.
noun
- A general idea or understanding of something: synonym: idea.
- A plan or original idea.
- A unifying idea or theme, especially for a product or service.
While Jesus is a person, saying that Jesus saves us from living in sin is communicating an idea. God has given instructions for how to know Jesus that knowing him requires us to follow, which indeed is what salvation is about.
Doug Brents
Active Member
And that is where the disconnect between English and Greek comes in. Look at EVERY SINGLE usage of the word "believe" (or any derivative of it: belief, believed, etc.) and every one of them is from the Greek word pistis which is faith, trust, etc. It is not the "intellectual assent", "mental acceptance", etc. as espoused in the definition above. It is the faith that James is talking about in the last half of James 2.
Absolutely, there is no debate there. The debate begins when we try to determine when that process is applied to an individual. It is NOT when the person first gives intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel. It is when that person is buried with Christ in baptism to arise as a new person.
Obadiah
Active Member
All right now we're talking. Yes that's the question... do you know him? I call it Abide in Jesus.
Alos faith cannot be considered a work because even faith is a gift from God, not something we produce on our own. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them” John 6:44 Praise the Lord for His power to save and for His grace to make salvation a reality not a concept!
Obadiah
Active Member
We believe on The One who did the work. No action involved therefore no work involved. Believing that belief is an action means that we want to help God out and have our hand in salvation. It's a pride thing. Clearly there's nothing we could possibly do to earn our salvation or to help God out in the salvation process. He has it covered and doesn't need our help.
True faith cannot be considered a work because true faith involves a cessation of our works in the flesh. True faith has as its object Jesus and His work on our behalf
Doug Brents
Active Member
Wrong! Faith is not the gift. Salvation is the gift that Paul is talking about in Eph 2:8-9.
Obadiah
Active Member
Sounds like desperation time
Doug Brents
Active Member
Let me ask you the question I asked Clifford. Can you tell me what the condition (if any) and what is the "reward" (if any) that is listed in these two passages.
Rom 10:9-10
Acts 3:19
That is not what the Holy Spirit said through James. James 2:26 says that our faith without taking action (works) is not really faith at all; it is dead!
Indeed. In Genesis 18:19, God's way is the way to practice aspects of His nature such as justice and righteousness, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing those and other aspects of His nature in obedience to His law is the way to know God, which is also the way to know the Son, who is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus through practicing aspects of His nature is the goal of the law.
Just because something is a gift does not mean that it does not require works. For example, the content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing toward offsetting the gift. In a similar manner, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. This is also why Jesus said that obedience to God's commandment is the way to inherit eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28) and why those who abide in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, which was in obedience to God's law (1 John 2:6).
Yes, living by our own works, our own high days, our own judgments, our own righteousness, our own religious traditions, do not help merit Salvation. These works make "Children of Disobedience" upon which the Wrath of God is reserved.
"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Doug Brents
Active Member
You are correct. But that is not what we are talking about. Repenting, confessing Jesus' as Lord, and baptism are not "living by our own works, our own high days, our own judgments, our own righteousness, our own religious traditions". They are submitting to God's commands that He says lead to our receiving salvation.
Azriel
Active Member
The Ferrari defense.
Azriel
Active Member
That's after you saved.
Is it not an example of how a gift can require someone to do works that contribute nothing towards offsetting the cost of the gift?The Ferrari defense.
Azriel
Active Member
After salvation. Don't forget to filthy rags thing.
Azriel
Active Member
Only if you're grasping and straws. Look at that sentence. Why would you want to offset the cost of a gift? If you got to pay for it it's not a gift.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Answer this question please. Can you tell me what is the condition (if any) and what is the "reward" (if any) that is listed in these two passages.
Rom 10:9-10
Acts 3:19
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