"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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There is no works salvation issue. There is only the understanding, or lack thereof in your case, of what works Paul was speaking of when he spoke about it.
Seabass
Active Member
I understand. You just don't want to clean up the messes.....the contradictions and illogical claims you create as seen by the post you made.
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
No you dont, im afraid you snared my friend, you promote a false gospel conditioned on mans doing. The elect are made right with God solely on Christs doing, obedience Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
a few verses b4 Paul wrote the elect were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
The made righteous in Vs 19 is from the same word for Justified in Vs9 they practically say the same thing. Mans obedience has absolutely nothing to do with it
How would you know? You don't even know what works Paul was speaking of.
Seabass
Active Member
"obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16
Rom 6:17-18
1) servants to sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified.
Obedience has everything to do with being justified...not one example of God unconditionally justify those who live in disobedience, rebellion to Him.
Noah could not be saved from the flood had he not obeyed God.
Namaan could not be healed lest he dip 7 times as God instructed
Israelites could not take Jericho had they not obeyed by marching around the city and blowing their horns
The Jews (Acts 2) could not be saved by refusing to repent and be baptized.
You create many many contradictions within scripture that you do not clean up.
Where does the CONTEXT of Rom 5:18-19 say men are UNconditionally made sinners and UNconditionally made righteous???
@Seabass
According to the scripture of truth, the "unconditional" nature is found in the following contextual points:
1). Imputation Without Personal Action ~ The scriptures in Romans 5:12-19; 1st Corinthians 15:21,22 the parallel between Adam and Christ:
3). Eternal and Legal Justification The scriptures asserts that this righteousness is not based on the sinner's condition but on God's decree:
Please consider more: Romans 5:18,19:
describes men being unconditionally made sinners and unconditionally made righteous is primarily found in the writings of
most all men from the invention of the printing press you until around early 1800's, at which time this world was flooded with false prophets
Most men back in the late 1400's to early 1800's argued for justification by Christ alone. Their interpretation focuses on the parallelism of the text to emphasize that these states are results of "representative acts" rather than individual conditions.
The Argument for Unconditional Status
According to Luther, Calvin, Richardson, Gill, Brine an similar theological perspectives:
Key Contextual Elements
They all with one voice proves men are unconditionally made sinners and unconditionally made righteous through legal federal headship, where the actions of one representative are credited to all those they represent, regardless of their personal response.
The Context of Unconditional Imputation focuses on the parallel between Adam and Christ:
Their position on Eternal Justification heavily utilized these verses to claim:
Men are made sinners and righteous unconditionally through the doctrine of federal headship and imputation. The scriptures teaches that just as individuals did nothing personally to be "made sinners" in Adam, the elect do nothing personally to be "made righteous" in Christ. It was the wisdom of God that chose the truth of two federal headship positions of the first and second Adam.
According to the scripture of truth, the "unconditional" nature is found in the following contextual points:
1). Imputation Without Personal Action ~ The scriptures in Romans 5:12-19; 1st Corinthians 15:21,22 the parallel between Adam and Christ:
- Made Sinners: Men are constituted sinners by the imputation of Adam's single act of disobedience, independent of their own personal sins.
- Made Righteous: Similarly, the "many" are made righteous by the imputation of Christ's obedience "without works".
- In Adam: "All men" refers to all his natural posterity.
- In Christ: "All men" and "the many" refer to all his spiritual seed—the elect. the scriptures teaches us that justification of life is "freely imputed" to all who belong to the "second Adam"~ since he secured eternal life for us as our surety.
3). Eternal and Legal Justification The scriptures asserts that this righteousness is not based on the sinner's condition but on God's decree:
- The sentence of justification was "conceived in the mind of God from eternity".
- It is an "act of God's grace" that does not arise from any "loveliness" or "works of righteousness" in the person.
- He describes the elect as being "actually justified and freed from all sin" in God's sight even while they are yet unconverted.
Please consider more: Romans 5:18,19:
describes men being unconditionally made sinners and unconditionally made righteous is primarily found in the writings of
most all men from the invention of the printing press you until around early 1800's, at which time this world was flooded with false prophets
Most men back in the late 1400's to early 1800's argued for justification by Christ alone. Their interpretation focuses on the parallelism of the text to emphasize that these states are results of "representative acts" rather than individual conditions.
The Argument for Unconditional Status
According to Luther, Calvin, Richardson, Gill, Brine an similar theological perspectives:
- Unconditionally Made Sinners: The context of verse 19 states that "by one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners". They argues this is unconditional because it happened before any person was born or committed a personal act of sin; it is a "judicial act" where individuals were legally constituted as sinners based on Adam's federal headship.
- Unconditionally Made Righteous: The second half of the parallel states, "so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous". They all with one voice interprets this as equally unconditional, arguing that if men were made sinners without their own act, they must be made righteous solely by Christ's act. They posits that justification occurred when Christ finished His work, independent of an individual's personal faith.
Key Contextual Elements
- Federal Headship: The passage presents Adam and Christ as representatives. Just as Adam's single trespass brought condemnation to all, Christ's single righteous act brought justification of life to all in the same manner.
- The Contrast of Acts: The focus is on the act of the representative rather than the recipient's response.
- Equality of Effect: Universalist and "Christ-alone" interpretations, like all of them with one voice, argue that the "all" and "many" on both sides of the parallel must be co-extensive. If the condemnation was unconditional for the entire race, they argue the justification must be equally absolute
They all with one voice proves men are unconditionally made sinners and unconditionally made righteous through legal federal headship, where the actions of one representative are credited to all those they represent, regardless of their personal response.
The Context of Unconditional Imputation focuses on the parallel between Adam and Christ:
- Unconditionally Made Sinners (Adam): They all with one voice emphasized that "by the offence of one many were made sinners". In his view, this is unconditional because every descendant of Adam is legally constituted a sinner by Adam's single act of disobedience before they ever commit a personal sin.
- Unconditionally Made Righteous (Christ): Similarly, they all taught with one voice that "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous". They all argued with one voice that this righteousness is a "free favor" and a "sovereign pleasure" of God. Because it is based entirely on Christ's finished work, it does not depend on human conditions like faith or repentance to cause it.
Their position on Eternal Justification heavily utilized these verses to claim:
- Justification is Prior to Faith: They asserted that faith is not the "instrumental cause" or "matter" of justification. Instead, God justifies the elect based on Christ's righteousness alone, making it an "immanent act" of God that exists before a person even believes.
- Legal Standing vs. Inward State: being "made righteous" in this context refers to a legal declaration (justification) rather than an internal transformation (sanctification). This legal status is fixed and unconditional for those in Christ, just as the status of "sinner" is fixed for those in Adam.
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Also Rom 5:10 tells us how the elect were reconciled to God Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
brightfame52
Active Member
If water baptism is necessary for salvation, the thief on the cross is in hell. Jesus deluded him when He said to him :
Lk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Red, nearly that entire post has no biblical basis of truth in it. It is totally wrong. In verse 18 the "all men" justified is the same "all men" condemned and in verse19 the "many" made righteous is the same "many" made sinners. Your changing the meaning of the words mid-sentence in both verses is unacceptable. Both relate to the condition of the spirit of mankind when they come into the world. Were it not for Christ's sacrifice on the cross the whole of mankind would be condemned from birth; however, with the death of Christ on the cross the whole of mankind are made righteous when they come into this world, thus effectively negating any effect of the sin of Adam on mankind at birth.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Thus instead of Original Sin that might have been the curse against the spirits of mankind at birth, it is instead Original Grace on the whole of mankind at birth. They remain free from any condemnation until they, themselves, sin against God. God is not unjust monstrosity, you present Him to be, who would give dead spirits to men when they are born and have not yet committed any sin against God.
And that, my good friend in Christ, is in complete harmony with the whole rest of God's word, the Bible.
Seabass
Active Member
----the Bible does not specifically state the thief was or was not baptized, he may have been of those baptized in Mk 1:5. The "thief" argument is based on an unprovable assumption.
----Heb 9:15-16 the thief was promised paradise while he and Christ were both alive under the OT law. So the thief is not an example of NT salvation, he was not accountable to Acts 2:38, he could not, as the NT requires, be baptized into the death of Christ (Rom 6) to then walk in newness of life.
----Matt 9:6 when Christ was 'on earth' during his earth;y ministry he had the power/authority to forgive sins of those whom he saw a deserving as the thief. No one today therefore can claim they are saved as the theif since Christ is not on earth forgivibng sins. Christ left earth some 2000 years ago (Acts 1) leaving behind his NT as his authority on earth which requires baptism Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38
Says the man who hasn't a clue of the difference between the Old and New Covenants.
Both describe the condition of the spirits of men when they are born. The effect of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross unconditionally negated the effect of the sin of Adam for all men. All are born free and all are judged only based upon their own trespasses and sins.
brightfame52
Active Member
Lol if he was he did it right b4 he went out to do more robberies lol
brightfame52
Active Member
And I suppose you think you have been sin-free since becoming a child of God. What a joke.
What did Jesus say?
brightfame52
Active Member
The guy had been a hardened criminal in his immediate past, and probably most of his life, so what difference would water baptism make ? The thief on the cross was given eternal life as a free gift of grace right there on the cross. He didnt do anything for Christ to save him, so it is with any sinner saved by grace,
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