"Works Salvation"

[Jim]

In what sense are you using the word salvation? Salvation from sin and condemnation, Romans 4:25; in a vital sense~John 3:5; or salvation in a practical sense from error to truth? 1st Timothy 4:16?

Or salvation in an eternal sense? 2nd Timothy 1:9; Or legally? Matthew 1:21; or final sense Romans 13:11?

Since you men use the word "salvation" so freely, surely you know what sense you are using the word, and desire others to know what you means by using the words Salvation/Save/saved.

Wrong, it is according to how one uses the word: save/saved/salvation! It a practical sense there's synergism when God uses the words save/saved/salvation in the word of God.

in all other senses there is NO synergism when the Spirit uses the words save/saved/salvation! Selah!

It is the fallacy of the Augustinian/Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity that drives you to all those different "senses" of save/saved/salvation. You have produced five "senses" of salvation. But with all of your explanations of the five different senses, there is never any possibility presented in scripture of receiving any one sense without having received all five senses. That is, there is never any occurrence presented in scripture of one being saved in one of your five senses yet being unsaved in the other four senses. There is only salvation, not salvations.

Salvation is a state of being of the spirit of a person in their right standing before God. With respect to the spiritual, there is only the one sense with several results or features of salvation. Salvation is the release, the redemption, from the spiritual effects of and the punishment due for personal sin against God's law. Thus, one is saved when he is gifted by God to be placed in the state of being of his spirit, the right standing before God. That is an act of God changing the person from a wrong standing before God to a right standing before God. It is a onetime instantaneous act of God in which the person is changed from the standing of being a lost sinner to the standing of being a saved saint.

With that then, setting aside any references of monergism or synergism, the next question that arises is if and when in the life of the individual does God give the gift of salvation. I will come back to that later perhaps.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, but much more than you ae prompting.

Doug, the promises of God secured salvation from sin and condemnation for God's elect, their works proves that God had given them a new man by His mighty power and grace based upon what His SOn did for them, we are forgiven on the behalf of Christ alone, nothing that we have done....dipping, attacking, marching, etc.

Is the cause of our salvation, but "the results of" the faith of an indwelling Spirit of God!

The difference is the differences between the true gospel and another gospel.

Of course salvation is based solely upon what Jesus did on the cross and His subsequent resurrection. That is not in question. What is in question is how that is applied to an individual. You say that the benefit of Jesus' sacrifice is given for no reason at all other than God's choice. Others say it is given when we give intellectual assent (belief) to the truth of the Gospel. Neither of these is correct according to Scripture.
If it were solely God's choice of who is saved, then all people everywhere would accept Jesus, because it is not God's choice to condemn anyone (2 Pet 3:9).
If it were simply based upon "belief only", then the leaders of the Jews would not have remained condemned in John 12:42-43. And God would not have told us that there are certain actions that lead to or result in our receiving His gift of salvation/forgiveness/adoption (Gal 3:26-27, Rom 10:9-10, Eph 5:26-27, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, etc.).

 

[Doug Brents]

In what sense are you using the word salvation? Salvation from sin and condemnation, Romans 4:25; in a vital sense~John 3:5; or salvation in a practical sense from error to truth? 1st Timothy 4:16?

Or salvation in an eternal sense? 2nd Timothy 1:9; Or legally? Matthew 1:21; or final sense Romans 13:11?

Since you men use the word "salvation" so freely, surely you know what sense you are using the word, and desire others to know what you means by using the words Salvation/Save/saved.

All of the above.
Salvation - forgiveness of sin, redemption from the penalty of sin (death), resurrection to life with God in Heaven, given new life in Christ.

Wrong, it is according to how one uses the word: save/saved/salvation! It a practical sense there's synergism when God uses the words save/saved/salvation in the word of God.

in all other senses there is NO synergism when the Spirit uses the words save/saved/salvation! Selah!

Are you saying that by our own power we can forgive ourselves of sin and free ourselves of its consequences?
There is no more synergism to our salvation/forgiveness than there was in the knocking down of the walls of Jericho, or the multiplication of the widow's oil, or the other widow's flour and oil, or the cleansing of Naaman's leprosy, or the parting of the Red Sea, or any of the other acts of God in the OT. The participation of the people did not contribute to the power, or ability of God.

But the actions of the people were essential to the faith of the people involved, and it was through their faith that the blessing was applied to their life.

Bold lettering is mine, for discussion.

Doug. let me ask you a question in light of Romans 7:18: "Is it the flesh doing these spiritual acts, or a new man within us doling them?"

Neither. The flesh, in Rom 7:18 is referring to our sinful nature. The "sin nature" is not willing to do, or capable of doing, what God commands. But the new man has not yet been born/created before salvation is received, so it is not yet present to be able to do them either.

 

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

If it were solely God's choice of who is saved, then all people everywhere would accept Jesus, because it is not God's choice to condemn anyone (2 Pet 3:9).

There you folks go again, playing with sound bites.

2nd Peter 3:9​

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

So, I ask you four questions ~ very simple questions, that can and should be answered using the word of God.

1.) What is God promise?

2.) To whom are they for?

3.) What does God's promise include?

4.) Will God's eternal purposes and promises fail?

I'll wait for your answers.

 

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

All of the above.
Salvation - forgiveness of sin, redemption from the penalty of sin (death), resurrection to life with God in Heaven, given new life in Christ.

Well Doug, you really never prove the above that I mentioned, you sorta covered two, again, sorta!

Are you saying that by our own power we can forgive ourselves of sin and free ourselves of its consequences?

Now Doug, how in the world did you come to that conclusion is beyond me? Absolutely we have no part in our salvation from sin and condemnation and certainly cannot forgive our own sins.

There is no more synergism to our salvation/forgiveness than there was in the knocking down of the walls of Jericho, or the multiplication of the widow's oil, or the other widow's flour and oil, or the cleansing of Naaman's leprosy, or the parting of the Red Sea, or any of the other acts of God in the OT. The participation of the people did not contribute to the power, or ability of God.

Well there my answer to my question. Now I see how you thought what you asked me. Doug, I was referring to our practical salvation of growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and truths of his gospel, nothing more. There are many works we are commanded to do and should do if growth in grace is to be made by us. Doug, that's why I gave.................

1st Timothy 4:16​

“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”

To you to consider.

Doug, there is a practical salvation that believers do participate in (synergism) by doing just what Paul commanded Timothy to do, and if we do not, then we do not grow in grace and knowledge and we leave ourselves open to to overcome by our spiritual enemies. This salvation Lot failed at and Abraham did not. The church art Corinth failed at, the Philadelphia church of Revelation 3:7, did not, etc.

Neither. The flesh, in Rom 7:18 is referring to our sinful nature. The "sin nature" is not willing to do, or capable of doing, what God commands. But the new man has not yet been born/created before salvation is received, so it is not yet present to be able to do them either.

Then, I ask you this question~how did you get born again? Doug, there are only two natures at work in this world~a child of God has two, a lost person has only one, so pray to tell me how did you get born again?

 

[Wick Stick]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? | GotQuestions.org

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?

www.gotquestions.org

Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny? Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny? Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?

"Works salvation" is when people try to earn their salvation by doing good works (or sometimes by not doing bad works). I don't think anybody actually believes that they can earn their salvation. If you've been around church for a minute, or read your Bible, you've probably heard that salvation can't be earned.

That said, there do seem to be some rewards that can be earned:

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.

Sadly, I think most of the good works done around church are done to increase reputation. Lately we've come to call that virtue signaling. The Bible doesn't seem to be a fan of that, either:

Matt 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

 

[Doug Brents]

There you folks go again, playing with sound bites.

Sound bites?

2nd Peter 3:9​

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

So, I ask you four questions ~ very simple questions, that can and should be answered using the word of God.

1.) What is God promise?

To save mankind from the penalty of sin (a lot more that can be said about this).

2.) To whom are they for?

Those who exhibit faith in Him, through obedience of repentance, confession, and baptism.

3.) What does God's promise include?

Forgiveness of sin, adoption as His children, eternal life with Him in Heaven, ....

4.) Will God's eternal purposes and promises fail?

Never.

Now Doug, how in the world did you come to that conclusion is beyond me?

I said:

Nope. There is no synergism in salvation. All of the "saving" is done by God's grace.

And then you said:

Wrong, it is according to how one uses the word: save/saved/salvation!

What part of my statement is "wrong"? The last thing I said is that "All of the "saving" is done by God's grace." There is NO ONE in the "belief only" crowd, or in the crowd who agree with me that would disagree with that statement (that I know of anyway).
So in what way was I "wrong"?

Well there my answer to my question. Now I see how you thought what you asked me. Doug, I was referring to our practical salvation of growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and truths of his gospel, nothing more. There are many works we are commanded to do and should do if growth in grace is to be made by us. Doug, that's why I gave.................

1st Timothy 4:16​

“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”

To you to consider.

Doug, there is a practical salvation that believers do participate in (synergism) by doing just what Paul commanded Timothy to do, and if we do not, then we do not grow in grace and knowledge and we leave ourselves open to to overcome by our spiritual enemies. This salvation Lot failed at and Abraham did not. The church art Corinth failed at, the Philadelphia church of Revelation 3:7, did not, etc.

For one to "continue" they must be "in" in the first place. 1 Tim 4:16 is talking about people who are already Christ followers (saved) and their responsibility to continue to do what Jesus taught (as the Apostles were commanded to instruct them (all the way down to us) in Matt 28:19).

Then, I ask you this question~how did you get born again? Doug, there are only two natures at work in this world~a child of God has two, a lost person has only one, so pray to tell me how did you get born again?

I grew up in the Church, but I was lost. I had sinned, and I knew that I was lost. And I felt the Holy Spirit convicting me of my sin, and my lostness, leading me toward obedience on a Sunday evening at worship service. But still I refused. But the next morning, I went to the minister of the Church and told him I wanted to be saved, that I needed God to save me. We studied the Word together, and then He baptized me in Jesus' name. The Holy Spirit was working in my life, long before I was even born, but I was not saved until I was washed clean by the Holy Spirit in baptism (Rom 6:1-7).

 

[Seabass]

"Works salvation" is when people try to earn their salvation by doing good works (or sometimes by not doing bad works). I don't think anybody actually believes that they can earn their salvation. If you've been around church for a minute, or read your Bible, you've probably heard that salvation can't be earned.

That said, there do seem to be some rewards that can be earned:

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.

Sadly, I think most of the good works done around church are done to increase reputation. Lately we've come to call that virtue signaling. The Bible doesn't seem to be a fan of that, either:

Matt 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

I see the problem is that some people try and lump obedience to God as "works salvation" when obedience is not a work of merit. They refuse to acknowledge the distinction for works of merit and obedience are two completely different things.

 

[brightfame52]

in all other senses there is NO synergism when the Spirit uses the words save/saved/salvation! Selah!

Usually when people use the words saved, or save or salvation they mean it in all phases, the eternal, legal, vital, and practical

 

[Studyman]

It is your method of reading and interpreting God's word, that brings confusion among people and even deceiving your own heart~so true are words that is written:

2nd Timothy 3:13​

“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”

While folks like you are deceiving others, you likewise are deceiving your own heart! A well deserved self deception!

Men like you run with sound bites from the scriptures for that is all you have to go on, since you are not taught by the Spirit of God how to study to rightly divide the word of truth ~ you men do not you practice Ezra's method of searching the scriptures daily.......

And yet it is you who proclaim to the world that God doesn't want all men to be saved, as HE says. That HE doesn't desire the death of men who die. Even now you continue to labor tirelessly to justify your religion that preaches to other peoples children that they have no hope or choice in the Scriptures at all. That the instruction by God in Scriptures for ALL men to "Choose Him, "Turn to Him", "Trust Him", join themselves to Him", to "turn away from disobedience", is all a lie. You preach instead that, based on nothing a man does, God withholds from men the ability to "hear Him", "turn to Him", "Trust Him", and then grants them immortality so HE can torture them, torment them, punish them for eternity "BECAUSE" they didn't Trust Him, Listen to Him, Turn to Him. But some men will win the lotto drawing, or coin flip, and will be saved, regardless of their "Deeds".

Nehemiah 8:8​

“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”

Doesn't the Spirit of Christ in Nehemiah agree with and confirm the Spirit of Christ in Ezekiel? Doesn't the Book of the Law being read in Nehemiah the same Book that Jesus, Moses and all the Prophets and Disciples taught from? The entire Bible flows like a river of living water in my understanding, It does for me, anyway. Why is this Red? Did I win the coin flip?

EX 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But "if" the wicked will "turn from all his sins" that he hath committed, (AKA, repent) and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

But Red Baker has adopted a religion that preaches to others that God "Withholds" the ability of man to listen to God and turn from his sins, then destroys that man with everlasting destruction "BECAUSE" he didn't listen to God and "Turn for his sins", based on nothing the man did, but based on chance.

Such blasphemy is worthy of a rebuke.

When you folks come to 1st Timothy 2:1-4, all you do, and can do, is run with sound bites, thinking they support your corrupt teachings, regardless if they contradict other scriptures, it matters little with men like you you.

1 Tim. 2:1-4 doesn't contradict even ONE Scripture throughout the entire Bible. It actually quotes Ezekiel. It contradicts "your religion". That's why you won't actually engage in a discussion about them.

You just continue as you are doing here Red, to "labor tirelessly" to justify your adopted religious philosophy that God's Word is a lie, except of course His Words you use to justify that God's Word is a lie.

Men of God labor tirelessly to make the scriptures flow from one to another in perfect harmony, knowing that the truth is one cohesive whole and knowing also they all flow perfectly together when they are given to them their proper sense, which only men of God can give to them. So, the true meaning/sense of 1st Timothy 2:1-4 is:

Who will have all men to be saved~By all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should;

I am so happy you are continuing to articulate for others reading along, the foundation of the religious philosophy of this world you have adopted have been promoting to others for decades. With every post, you confirm my understanding more and more. Here, let me post what Paul actually said, including the important verse where the Spirit of Christ tells us "WHY" the delusion was placed on them, that you conveniently left out.

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; "because" they received not the love of the truth, "that they might be saved".

11 And "for this cause" God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who "believed not" the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But you preach that based on nothing these men "DID", no choice they made, God "Withheld" from them the ability to receive His Truth, that they might be saved. Then "Damned them", "BECAUSE" they didn't receive God's Truth.

So it isn't Paul contradicting me, or any other Scriptures here. Paul is contradicting you who preach to the world that Paul is Lying about "The Cause" of God sending them a strong delusion.

You say it "wasn't" based on their "DEEDS", while the entire Bible teaches it "IS" based on their deeds.

Do you not see the utter foolishness in the philosophy you chose to adopt? That God flipped a coin, and this man lost, and therefore God withheld from him the ability to receive the Truth of God. Then, "BECAUSE" they received not the Truth of God, that they might be saved, God sent them strong delusion, that they might believe a Lie, so that they would be damned, "Because they believed not the Truth", that God withheld the ability to believe.

I want you to continue to "labor tirelessly" to justify yourself here, "By the Words of the Law", so "that others also may fear".

for who hath resisted his will?

And what did God Himself tell you His Will is?

Ez. 18: 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Rom. 9: 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 "Thou", (Red Baker) wilt say then unto me, "Why doth he yet find fault"? For who hath resisted his will?

Do you see your little deception here Red. Paul isn't saying, "For who has resisted His Will". A fool is saying to Paul, "for who has resisted His will". And Paul answered them.

20 Nay but, O man, "who art thou that repliest against God"? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

What did God tell Cain? "If you do well, shall thou not be accepted". Who created Cain with anger, judgment, the capacity to hate and rebel, and then tell him to "Rule over" that man of sin??

What did HE tell mankind from the beginning? "Turn for your sins" and live? What did HE tell Abraham, "Walk before Me and be perfect". So what if your wicked flesh lusts after swine's flesh, or hates someone, of lusts after another woman, or wants to golf on God's Holy Day. Does that diminish God's Instruction? He created a man corruptible, then told that man to be Perfect and Holy. Did Abraham "reply against God"? Did Caleb? Did David? Why did Paul tell you;

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were "already perfect": but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Why does Paul strive after what you, Kenneth Copeland, the serpent in the garden, the Pope, Armenians, the entire religious system of this world teaches it is impossible for him to do, by his very creation?

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark "for the prize" of the high calling of God "in Christ Jesus".

What is the Prize Red? Perfection, Holiness, Yes? Isn't that the High calling of God which was in Christ Jesus? That is what Christ commanded of men. That is what God commanded of men. It's in your own Bible, you just don't believe Him Red.

So what if you are created corruptible, and are not perfect. " "who art thou that repliest against God". Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

But because you have been beguiled, like Eve, by the same voice that convinced her God is a Liar, to you His Word is untrustworthy, and therefore you must only consider the Scriptures which support the teaching of the "other voice" in the garden. And silence, if you can, any voice who strives for the perfection that was in Christ Jesus, just as Cain silenced Abel. But you can't silence the voice them anymore, so you must demean them, disparage them, ridicule them to discredit them. And all because you refuse to receive the Love of the Truth.

Of course you won't answer my questions, then you will declare as you always do, once again, to justify yourself.

But for others reading along, it's a great study. Consider all the tasks God gave to His people in the Scriptures to test their Faith, that would be considered "impossible" by the heathen minded. From Noah, to Abraham, to Joseph and Moses, Caleb, Joshua, David, Daniel, all the way to Christ Jesus who became a flesh and blood human being, just as His brethren, who Humbled Himself to God in perfect obedience.

None of these things were possible without God's help, but every one of these examples of Faith waded into their instructed task trusting that God knows what HE is doing, like Abraham did.

The religious system of this world, convinces humans as it convinced Eve, that their works don't matter, as God Prophesied. "They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. (You shall not surely die)

I advocate not being beguiled by these other voices, but to "Let this mind be in us, which was also in Christ Jesus".

 

[Studyman]

I see the problem is that some people try and lump obedience to God as "works salvation" when obedience is not a work of merit. They refuse to acknowledge the distinction for works of merit and obedience are two completely different things.

But consider that God's Works that HE instructs us to walk in, are Holy, Just, Good and Spiritual, "For we are his workmanship, (No longer our own) created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God (Not man, lest any man should boast), hath before ordained that we should "walk in them".

After all, as is understood by those who consider "Every Word" that proceeds from the mouth of God, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

From the very beginning humans were placed in a world in which other voices exist that tempt folks into rejecting God's Works, and walking in their own. The problem is, people listen to the other voice, and not God.

 

[Wick Stick]

I see the problem is that some people try and lump obedience to God as "works salvation" when obedience is not a work of merit. They refuse to acknowledge the distinction for works of merit and obedience are two completely different things.

Wait... am I part of "some people" in this scenario? I don't think I ought to be.

"Works of obedience" is a strange turn of phrase to me. I think of work as something that requires an effort I'd rather not make. Belief is sort of the opposite - it's something I'm eager to do, because I agree with it. Well, that's what the word means... Be Lief