"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
When you do, you might begin with an explanation of God's discourse with Cain in Genesis 4:7, That clearly presents God responding to the "works" of Cain. There is not any indication that Cain's actions result from God not blessing Cain or Cain not finding favor or finding grace in the eyes of God, thus limiting Cain's ability to respond favorably in God's eyes.
It seems fairly obvious that God having "found favor or grace in the eyes of the Lord" in Noah is due to who and what Noah was as a human being, not something that God bestowed upon Noah from which Noah then responded in some favorable way.
@pollard
I learned long ago, if one gets frustrated on debating folks, then you have lost the debate, the man that speaks truth while smiling, and being unrattled, wins everytime.
I love Jim, yet he does get very upset with folks from time to time, they can get under his skin too easy.
I thought I might get a smile from someone~thanks brother.
I learned long ago, if one gets frustrated on debating folks, then you have lost the debate, the man that speaks truth while smiling, and being unrattled, wins everytime.
I love Jim, yet he does get very upset with folks from time to time, they can get under his skin too easy.
And there we have it. Your entire reaction and response to the issues here derive from your belief in the false doctrine of Total Depravity. And since it is false, conclusions reached under the adherence to that false doctrine are likely to be false as well.
Yes, Noah escaped being born dead in trespasses and sin. Noah had not committed any trespasses and sin until after he was born. Everyone escapes being born dead in trespasses and sin. No one is born dead in trespasses and sin. God is not the unjust ogre you present Him to be.
Seriously Red, you're being held captive by a really terrible, despicable, depiction of God inherent in the concept of Total Depravity. A god invoking Total Depravity is a hideous nightmare, condemning mankind for what he, himself, has wrought.
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Seabass
Active Member
---The idea of original sin or total depravity are total fabrications made up by man...false man-made doctrines I totally and fully reject.
---Rom 5:17-18 does not say men are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners. Men are made sinners when they choose to sin (V12).
---Noah's life is being CONTRASTED FROM that wicked generation of people. If all are born with original sin/total depravity/born sinners, then Noah would be no different than anyone else. What separated Noah from that wicked generation was that he chose to obey (walk with) God. While that generation chose to disobey God (therefore made wicked by that choice), Noah chose to "walk" according to God's will and God "seen" that habitual life that Noah chose to live. Therefore he found grace in God's eyes that the disobedient, rebellious world did not. Just as men are not unconditionally made sinners (that generation chose to sin) men are not unconditionally made righteous (Noah chose to walk with God thus found grace). Cain (Gen 4:7) could choose to do well or choose to not do well. Noah and his family chose to do well while Cain and that wicked generation at the time of Noah chose to not do well.
---
Oh my you really do not get it. Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up?
The Bible. It says that God is good, holy, loving, merciful, gracious. God would not, does not condemn anyone for the sins and failures of another or sins and failures not committed.
I certainly am not speaking against God, or making judgments against God in any way. As is your custom, to exalt yourself you must demean others and make up falsehoods against them. The mainstream preachers of Jesus Time, and Jeremiah's time, and Paul's time, adopted the same practice. It's a popular religious tradition exercised by the promoters of this world's religious philosophies that has existed since before Moses was accused of bring Israel into the desert to die..
I am speaking out against "YOUR" preaching RED, not God's. You "speak a vision of your own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD."
In "your" religion, God created many humans, but only chose Noah based on nothing he chose to do, and "made him" a Just man and walked with him. While the rest of the people God created, God condemned to suffering and drowning, based on nothing they chose to do. In like manner, you promote that God "made" Ham look at the nakedness of his father, based on nothing Ham ever did, while "making" his other two brothers obedient, based on nothing they did. You promote in "your" adopted religion, that God called Abraham alone when he was over 70 years old, based on nothing he did, but withheld His calling from the rest of men, based on nothing they did. A Teaching even Paul refutes. Implying that Lot was simply lucky to be able to tag along, but God "made" his wife look back and be destroyed, based on nothing she ever did. Then when Abraham was standing outside of Sodom, in "Your" religion, God withheld from the men of Sodom the ability to seek Him and Yield themselves to God's Righteousness, based on nothing the men of this city chose to do. Then slaughtered the entire city, "BECAUSE" there was no one righteous there. While at the same time "made" Abraham obey HIM, and then blessed Abraham "Because that Abraham obeyed God's voice, and kept God's charge, God's commandments, God's statutes, and my laws.
You have, of your own free will, chosen to adopt a religion that has created an "image" of God in the likeness of an unjust liar, who commands all men to obey Him, tells them they can obey Him, then withholds the ability of them to obey Him based on nothing they do, and then destroys and tortures them for eternity, "Because" they didn't obey Him.
That is not the God "of the Bibles" election of Grace as defined by His Holy Scriptures Red. That is "Your" adopted religious philosophy, a wicked and evil judgment against God, that existed in the world God placed us in since the first false preacher ever recorded, told Eve, " Ye shall not surely die".
Most of your deception is caused by your free will rejection and refusal to believe the Word of God when HE tells all men to "Deny themself", "Yield themself", "Submit themself", "humble themself", "offer themself". Having adopted instead the very popular religious philosophy of this world, that God's chosen are chosen based on nothing they do, and those not chosen, are destroyed based on nothing they do.
No doubt, since you don't believe Christ's Sayings through Moses and the Prophets, when HE inspired them to call all men to;
"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?",
then you will not be persuaded when the Same Christ becomes a man, who is killed and raised from the dead, tells you;
"And he said "to them all", If any man will come after me, let him "deny himself", and "take up his cross daily", and follow me.
Imagine a God so unjust that HE tells "ALL MEN" under heaven, as Paul teaches, to "deny themselves" and follow Him. But then, based on nothing they do or choose, Withholds from them the capacity to do so, then torments them for eternity, "Because" they didn't deny themselves and follow Him.
I will never again submit this world's religions Red. And I will never make such an evil and wicked judgment against Christ, or His Father, the God and Father of all.
I sincerely wish you would consider these things and repent and stop promoting such an image of God.
@Doug Brents
I see you're making a bold statement that the scriptures will prove is so wrong ~ also shows your lack of understanding, even though you may be very well gifted in many area, but not in understanding the holy scriptures of truth.
Doug, the very purpose of all of the apostle John's writings is to show us that faith is one of the greatest evidence of the new birth only second to charity being the greatest, of all of the fruits of the Spirit.
Key Aspects of Faith as Evidence..... please consider:
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The "only" faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
There are no conditions ~ (which is works) I do not care how one wrapped this and packages and said it over over different ways, it is still works that man has an active part in which God's word refutes over and over again. Yes you and other try so hard to invent ways for man to have a part in his salvation from sin and condemnation, and children of God's promises reject our works as having any part in this salvation that Christ alone secured for us.
Let me know if you desire for me to go into depth concerning this blessed truth? I'll wait to see.
Okay Doug, you're next.
I see you're making a bold statement that the scriptures will prove is so wrong ~ also shows your lack of understanding, even though you may be very well gifted in many area, but not in understanding the holy scriptures of truth.
Doug, the very purpose of all of the apostle John's writings is to show us that faith is one of the greatest evidence of the new birth only second to charity being the greatest, of all of the fruits of the Spirit.
1st John 5:1
“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”Key Aspects of Faith as Evidence..... please consider:
Doug, it is not our faith, but Christ's faith and obedience! Ephesians 2:8.9 is very easy to understand if one has the true gospel of Jesus Christ, which you folks do not. I have said many times over, which @ Jim knows and has heard it many times from me concerning this wonderful scriptures . Please consider: Ephesians 2:8:
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The "only" faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
Red highlighted done by me for discussion.
There are no conditions ~ (which is works) I do not care how one wrapped this and packages and said it over over different ways, it is still works that man has an active part in which God's word refutes over and over again. Yes you and other try so hard to invent ways for man to have a part in his salvation from sin and condemnation, and children of God's promises reject our works as having any part in this salvation that Christ alone secured for us.
Legally, there are no conditions practically in order to have a true understanding of the gospel? YES, there are a few conditions that man can do and means that are used to accomplish this salvation, and men that play a part in our practical salvation of coming unto a more perfect understanding of the gospel.
Let me know if you desire for me to go into depth concerning this blessed truth? I'll wait to see.
Seabass
Active Member
--No one has ever been saved/justified while living in defiance/disobedience to God's will. Not obeying God';s will would have put Noah in with that wicked generation and face the same condemnation in the flood.
---Rom s 7 does not teach total depravity or whatever you wish to call it. The context rather shows a man who hates the bad that he does v15 and sees the law as good v16. A man that wants to do good v19, who delights in God''s law v22. We have a picture of a man who is NOT willing to do wrong but do right by the law. A totally depraved person would be the exact opposite of all this.
Rom 7:18 Paul is describing a person trying to do good, but is trying to find justification by perfect flawless works apart from Christ.
"dwelleth no good thing" - does not mean totally depraved/evil for Paul just described a man wanting to do good (vs 15,19), who hates the bad that he does, who delights in the law.
Paul is describing a Jew living under the OT law and that law required sinless perfection to be justified by it. Paul is showing the frustration that requirement of perfection caused him. Paul is not saying he is unable to do any good at all, but unable to keep the sinless perfection required by the law. (Paul did good when he converted to Christianity). So when Paul said he could not do good, he is not using the term good in every sense of the word but unable to do good when it came to the OT law and its requirement of perfect flawless law keeping. Paul fell short of that perfection, thereby sinned. He could not do good all the time therefore good did not permanently "dwelleth (present tense) in me". Though he delighted in the law and desired to do good, he always fell short of doing it. Nothing here at all describes a man that is "totally depraved".
Rom 7:19
"For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice."
A totally depraved person has no will to do any good, would not delight in God's law and would wallow in the evil they do. Yet here Paul is saying the evil he did was in not keeping the law flawless condemned him and found himself sinning (persecuting Christians). Just because Paul was not able to keep the OT law perfectly sinless does not make him totally depraved but just an imperfect human like the rest of us.
Rom 7:20
"Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."
Even after desiring and wanting to do good in keeping the OT law's perfect demand, sin still found a way to dwell in him. Not because he was totally depraved unable to any good at all but because he could not keep the perfect flawless demand of the OT law.
So are you claiming Noah living a life walking with God and God having seen that habitual life of obedience had nothing to do with Noah finding grace in God's eyes??? That his finding grace was by "sovereignty" alone? What then was that sovereignty based on? Sovereignty just draw Noah out of a hat? Did sovereignty flip a coin? Why Noah and not other people in that generation?
(Do not pass on answering these questions and claim God's sovereignty is just a 'mystery" that cannot be understood by man. Calvinism cannot create un-Biblical ideas then cop out by avoiding giving answers to support those un-biblical ideas)
Rom 9 does not support Calvinism but refutes it.
The election between Esau and Jacob had nothing to do with salvation but a choice in lineage that Christ would enter the world through. Just because Jacob's lineage was chosen did not mean automatic, unconditional salvation for his lineage the Jews, they still had to CONDITIONALLY obey God to be saved. And the Jews, though chosen, did not obey God and were lost (Rom 10:1-3) and cast off (Rom 11). Just because Esau's lineage was not chosen did not mean automatic condemnation. Esau could obey God and be saved and by all accounts Esau was saved.
Because Abraham was chosen did not mean Melchizedek was unconditionally destined to be lost.
Eph 1 say nothing at all about certain individuals being unconditionally made part of the elect. We do find in Eph 1 Paul talking to a predestined GROUP Called Christian and those who choose to obey the gospel become part of that group by their choice not by a random unconditional decree God made for them. All we find in Ephesians 1 is that those in this predestined GROUP have been given predetermined traits, those traits being "in Him (Christ), holy, and without blame" Eph 1:4 and in Eph 2:10 we find this group has been predestined to do "good works". Again, NOTHING at all here about certain individuals being unconditionally chose, bing UNCONDTIONALLY in Christ, holy and without blame while APART from the GROUP Christian.
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay. if you do well ? But he couldnt do well. He was in the flesh. He didnt have the gift of faith given him as it was given to Abel. Heb 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
brightfame52
Active Member
@Studyman
That was me by nature and maybe even worse~and the more I see the truth of gospel, the more I see just how wicked I was by nature. The more I mature in the faith, the more I see how wicked my old man truly is, and even until this very day after over fifty plus years in the faith, serving God, sin is still there keeping me from living to the degree I desire to live. I fully agree the temptation to exalt myself is there, yet I war against such wicked sins, regardless what you think or say. THe Pharisees said worse to Christ, so who Am I? A nobody.
Concerning Abraham it was written:
Romans 4:4
“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”
A Teaching even Paul refutes. Implying that Lot was simply lucky to be able to tag along, but God "made" his wife look back and be destroyed, based on nothing she ever did. Then when Abraham was standing outside of Sodom, in "Your" religion, God withheld from the men of Sodom the ability to seek Him and Yield themselves to God's Righteousness, based on nothing the men of this city chose to do. Then slaughtered the entire city, "BECAUSE" there was no one righteous there. While at the same time "made" Abraham obey HIM, and then blessed Abraham "Because that Abraham obeyed God's voice, and kept God's charge, God's commandments, God's statutes, and my laws.
You love to add to what others believe to make your lie look like the truth, but that is impossible to deceived the very elect with your lies.
Matthew 24:24
“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
So, let me ask you a question ~Did God work in Pharaoh to make his heart harden, or as I know and teach, did he just left Pharaoh "to the deceitfulness of his own heart" without showing him mercy? I know the truth, but you hate and resist the truth.
I am finish for a few hours due to a granddaughter needs for me to take her to practice parking for her driving test coming up next week. All 18 have have almost got their driving licenses with only two go. The great child has a few years yet~I probably will not be here.
Any and all men are speaking against God when they go against the word of God, especially so the gospel of Jesus Christ, and free justification through Christ's faith and obedience alone for that free justification of sinners ~ be whoever that may be.
Exalting myself? I have said many times over, I'm nothing but a sinner, born totally depraved and at enmity against God in way way possible.
Titus 3:3
“For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.”That was me by nature and maybe even worse~and the more I see the truth of gospel, the more I see just how wicked I was by nature. The more I mature in the faith, the more I see how wicked my old man truly is, and even until this very day after over fifty plus years in the faith, serving God, sin is still there keeping me from living to the degree I desire to live. I fully agree the temptation to exalt myself is there, yet I war against such wicked sins, regardless what you think or say. THe Pharisees said worse to Christ, so who Am I? A nobody.
Amen, guilty as charged concerning Noah.
Oh no, they chose death over life in Adam! And would have even done it much quicker in their fallen state where sin reigns in the old man's members, which it did not in Adam before he sinned. Try to present what others believes honestly without spinning their beliefs to exalt your own position, I know that's hard for you, but please make an attempt to do so.
Not sure when Abraham was regenerated, but yes, God called him (and Lot btw) alone among the heathens he lived among. Do you have problem with that, if so take it up with God when you see him ~ I love to be there to see your face in that day when that happens. And yes based on nothing Abraham did, for he was just as wicked as they were, maybe worse, who knows.
Isaiah 51:2
“Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.”Concerning Abraham it was written:
Romans 4:4
“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”
A Teaching even Paul refutes. Implying that Lot was simply lucky to be able to tag along, but God "made" his wife look back and be destroyed, based on nothing she ever did. Then when Abraham was standing outside of Sodom, in "Your" religion, God withheld from the men of Sodom the ability to seek Him and Yield themselves to God's Righteousness, based on nothing the men of this city chose to do. Then slaughtered the entire city, "BECAUSE" there was no one righteous there. While at the same time "made" Abraham obey HIM, and then blessed Abraham "Because that Abraham obeyed God's voice, and kept God's charge, God's commandments, God's statutes, and my laws.
You love to add to what others believe to make your lie look like the truth, but that is impossible to deceived the very elect with your lies.
Matthew 24:24
“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
Let me give you a verse to ponder:
Romans 9:18
“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”So, let me ask you a question ~Did God work in Pharaoh to make his heart harden, or as I know and teach, did he just left Pharaoh "to the deceitfulness of his own heart" without showing him mercy? I know the truth, but you hate and resist the truth.
You men reject the blessed truth of election of pure grace for your fleshly work gospel whereas man has an active role in his salvation from sin and condemnation.
I am finish for a few hours due to a granddaughter needs for me to take her to practice parking for her driving test coming up next week. All 18 have have almost got their driving licenses with only two go. The great child has a few years yet~I probably will not be here.
Duane
Active Member
Tell it like it is.
He has already told you who HE shows mercy to Red. There is no mercy without repentance. But the image of God you have created, demands repentance before mercy, then withholds repentance based on some holy lottery.
And you brag about this image of God you have created, even when it is shown to your own face.
As the Scriptures clearly show, you will not be persuaded that God is a Just and honest God. So it doesn't matter what Paul says, Jesus says or God Almighty, your god plays with human beings the way a cat plays with a mouse. Your god cannot be trusted to tell men the truth. I can expect to hear from your god;
"I'm sorry Studyman, I gave you life, feeling, emotion and the desire to live, and instructions about how to "Enter Life", but you didn't hit the holy lottery, so no matter what I Said, what you do, who you believe, who you "Yield yourself" a servant to obey, whether you press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, none of the God "of the bibles" WORDs matters, none of the pleading and reasoning of the God of the Bible matters:
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 "If ye be willing and obedient", ye shall eat the good of the land:
Your god makes this a lie, and the entire Bible irrelevant and makes the God "of the Bible" a liar, dishonest and wicked for giving a man hope, that if he repents, he can be reconciled to God and saved, but repentance isn't granted because of our choice to repent according to your god, but is determined by a slot machine.
And your support for this evil and wicked judgment against God, is that HE uses men, who refused to "Deny themself", "Yield themself", "Submit themself", "humble themself", "offer themself" to God as instructed, like Pharoah, to test the Faith of those who did. Like Joshua and Caleb.
Did God not know the end from the beginning of Pharoah's life? Did God not know that Pharoah chose not believe Him, choosing instead the "the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches",? So God used him to test the faith of men like Caleb, who God also knew the end from the beginning of his life, and HE knew Caleb would choose to be "willing and obedient".
Paul tries to tell you this, but your mission is to justify and promote "your" religion, not seek God's Righteousness.
Rom. 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Just because God knows the choices Pharoah would make, because HE knows the end from the beginning, doesn't mean God made Pharoah disobedient because of a flip of a coin.
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Just because God knows, because HE sees the end from the beginning, that Caleb and Joshua would choose to "Deny themself", "Yield themself", "Submit themself", "humble themself", "offer themself" to God as instructed, doesn't mean they did so, because of some holy lottery.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes. Scripture you quoted said it Rom 9:18
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
He hardenteth sklērynō:
- to make hard, harden
- metaph.
- to render obstinate, stubborn
Its a present active indicative, so God is active in the hardening to disobey,, to be stubborn;
This of course is in addition to him already by nature being depraved
Thats my thought on that part.
brightfame52
Active Member
To sinners in unbelief, ask Paul 1 Tim 1:13
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
atpollard
Active Member
Say it ain’t so!
I mean, all @Red Baker did was to quote from …
- Ephesians 2:1-3 “And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.”
- Ephesians 2:8-10 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
Therefore … “preaching is in vain … faith also is in vain … worthless … still in [our] sins … we are of all people most to be pitied.” (1 Corinthians 15:14-19)
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