"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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Obviously, if that were true, then God would rather punish them than make them faithful. And that is the god you present.
brightfame52
Active Member
Romans 9:18 has nothing to do with saving or condemning anyone.
You dont like it ? Too bad cause nothing you can do about it
brightfame52
Active Member
atpollard
Active Member
Actually, here is EXACTLY what @Red Baker posted (that you quoted in your rebuttal) …
(Note the part that I underlined).
And here is your attack on the referenced scripture and “Total Depravity” (before jumping back to Noah) …
Lastly, here is Ephesians 2:1-3 which I quoted (compare the underlined portion of the verses to the underlined portion of Red Baker’s post) …
- Ephesians 2:1-3 “And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.”
That was all associated with Red's lack of understanding of the way in which the words righteous and righteousness are used in the Bible. Go to my reply #3869.
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The philosophy being debated here is who the "You", is who were dead in sins, that received mercy. The Scriptures say these men, "Repented", as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, " I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".
Red Baker and other promoters of the religious sect of the Calvinist religion, preach to the world that Repentance is only granted to men, not based on their choice to "Yield Themselves", Offer themselves", Deny themselves, humble themselves to God with all their heart, as the Scriptures teach. But that repentance is only granted to men by chance, a holy lottery, a flip of a coin, that has nothing whatsoever to do with anything the man chooses to do.
That when God calls a man who is "dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience",
to repent, or as the Spirit of Christ says through Ezekiel "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die,"
or as the Spirit of Christ's teaches through Isaiah;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 "If ye be willing and obedient", ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Red and BF52 adopted philosophy makes this all a lie, a deception because according to them, no man has been given by God the Capacity to follow His Instruction. That God "makes" a man willing and obedient, or God "makes" a man refuse and rebel.
The man, given life by God, and given the Holy Scriptures by God, that Paul teaches are trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, has already been either condemned, based on nothing he has ever done, or saved, based on nothing he has ever done.
Making Paul here a liar, And Christ Word's through Ezekiel a liar, and Christ's Words through Isaiah a liar. And robbing millions of people of any hope of salvation through the Scriptures that Paul promoted.
That when the Spirit of Christ speaks to us though Paul;
1 Tim. 2: 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have "all men" to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge "of the truth".
This too, made a mockery and a lie by the philosophy adopted by, and now being promoted. That God doesn't want all men saved, just the opposite, HE gives men life, tells them to obey Him, but withholds from them the capacity to obey Him, then tortures them forever, "BECAUSE" the didn't obey Him.
That somehow, if I believe Every Word of God, it doesn't matter. If I don't adopt the Calvinist Philosophy being promoted, that means my name wasn't drawn in the Holy Lottery, and I am predestined to spend eternity in hell fire and suffering, Not because of anything I did, but because my name wasn't drawn in the Holy Lottery.
That is the Philosophy Red and BF52 are promoting, and Jim is trying to show them, through ALL of the Holy scriptures, not just a few that they separate from the rest of the Bible and twist to justify their adopted religious philosophy, that it isn't God who is the deceiver here, but men who have been taken captive by the prince of this world, to do his will.
Maybe Paul was speaking about them in 2 Thess. 2: 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, "that they should believe a lie": 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Of course they would say God never gave them the capacity to believe the Truth, then Damned them "Because" the believed not the Truth.
brightfame52
Active Member
B4 regeneration man is dead to God and only has a mind and heart that is at enmity against God and not subject to God and so unable to please Him in any spiritual evangelical obedience Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
@Jim
The "righteousness of God" is a central/main teaching of the word of God, that reveals how sinners are made the righteousness of God", which gives them a right to eternal life. This righteousness not as something humans achieve by works, but as a gift from God that is known and understood by faith in the scriptures, which faith is a gift from God Philippians 1:29, etc. This righteousness is revealed from faith to faith, impossible for it to be any other way...therefore, from a man who has faith, to another man that has faith! Which you men reject and fight against, so do not accuse me of lack of understanding, when I alone can give proof from the scriptures which comes from proper understanding. Here is more for your consideration.
Core Definitions of God's Righteousness
Jim listen to this song that we all have sung many times over, do we truly believe it?
www.hymnal.net
Okay Jim, we'll do.
What are you talking about, when you said?
Jim, other than the righteousness of God, there is no righteousness worthy of speaking of that does not deserve the lake of fire, so there! So your distinction is made up to give your false gospel some hope of being accepted as the gospel of Christ, which it not even close.
The "righteousness of God" is a central/main teaching of the word of God, that reveals how sinners are made the righteousness of God", which gives them a right to eternal life. This righteousness not as something humans achieve by works, but as a gift from God that is known and understood by faith in the scriptures, which faith is a gift from God Philippians 1:29, etc. This righteousness is revealed from faith to faith, impossible for it to be any other way...therefore, from a man who has faith, to another man that has faith! Which you men reject and fight against, so do not accuse me of lack of understanding, when I alone can give proof from the scriptures which comes from proper understanding. Here is more for your consideration.
Core Definitions of God's Righteousness
- The Forensic Act (Imputation): The scriptures defines justification as a legal or "forensic" declaration. God accepts the sinner into his favor, not because the sinner has become, or is inherently righteous, but because the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed (credited) to them. Believers are "clothed with the righteousness of Christ" as if it were their own. 2nd Corinthians 5:21, etc.
- The Standard of God’s Character: God's Righteousness is also the absolute and infinite perfection of God himself. God's righteousness was perfectly revealed through the life of His Son Jesus Christ, which righteousness God's elect have been clothed with, imparted with, etc.
- Union with Christ: We do not possess this righteousness as a separate entity; rather, we possess it because we are "engrafted" into Christ. By being united to him, we are made one with Christ in his gifts.
- Faith as the evidence of understanding and knowing this blessed truth. : Faith is the "vessel" or instrument by which we come to understand this glorious message of free grace of having God's righteousness imparted to us. Christ's righteousness is our righteousness all we needed to enter into eternal life. It is not a "work" to be done in order to receive this, for it is freely given on the behalf of Christ securing this righteousness for each and every child of grace.
- Rejection of Self-Righteousness: Jim one will never have the knowledge of this blessed truth, of being "clothed with the righteousness of Christ" until we first realize we have absolutely no righteousness of our own.
- The Role of Works: Jim, even the "good works" of saints are inherently imperfect and "stained with sin" due to human corruption. Therefore, works can never be the basis for a person’s standing before God. However, once a person is justified by faith, God graciously accepts their works and rewards them, not according to their merit, but as a "fruit" of their justification.
Jim listen to this song that we all have sung many times over, do we truly believe it?
Hymn: My hope is built on nothing less
Christian hymns and spiritual songs with wonderful truths and music.
www.hymnal.net
@Studyman
The only person, or the main ones here who are making a mockery out of the word of God would be men like you who without a conscience, corrupt the holy scriptures through your recklessly handling of God's word, which will only add God's judgment to your blinded heart.
I leaving shortly, but I'll be back later, probably tomorrow to address a few more post.
The only person, or the main ones here who are making a mockery out of the word of God would be men like you who without a conscience, corrupt the holy scriptures through your recklessly handling of God's word, which will only add God's judgment to your blinded heart.
No one has completely conformed to God's law and therefore in an absolute sense it is as Paul said, "there is none righteous, not even one" (Rom3:10). But in a relative sense many are called righteous in scripture apart from the absolute sense. If you do not think that to be true, then what do you do with passages such as Genesis 38:26 Then Judah identified them and said, "She is more righteous than I, since I did not give her to my son Shelah." And he did not know her again. If in speaking of righteous and righteousness, it is always the righteousness of God, then how could Judah there in speaking about Tamar say that she was more righteous than he. Clearly there the righteousness spoken there is not the righteousness of God, but the relative righteousness of the human being.
The point is that in most instances in scripture where it is speaking about this or that person being righteous it is not a reference to the righteousness of God. There are many, many places where the "righteous" and the "wicked" are contrasted with one another. This way of speaking is found in the Bible almost from cover to cover: Genesis 18:23; Deuteronomy 25:1;1 Kings 8:32; Job 10:15: Psalms 1:6; 7:9; 34:15-16 and so many more. In other places, it is apparent when speaking of one who are righteous, it is not speaking of a righteousness of God, but the relative righteousness. In other places it is more specifically stated that their (relative) righteousness is the reason why they are blessed (see e.g., 1 Sam26:23; 2 Sam 22:21;1 Kings 8:32; 2 Chr 6:23; Psa 7:8; 18:20; Prov 11:18-19; Isa 3:10).
So many places we read that God blesses the righteous because they are righteous but in a relative sense as I described. I can give you a list of passages in which it is stated as a fact that God blesses the righteous, and it is implied that there is no reason for this blessing other than their righteousness.
No Red, there is only one absolute righteousness of God. But there are many statements in the Bible that speaks of the (relative) righteousness of a man. So many places such as the many I have given above, speak of their righteousness. Psalm 7:8 The LORD judges the peoples; judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness and according to the integrity that is in me.
You are, quite frankly, misreading so many passages that are speaking of the (relative) righteousness of a man rather than the (absolute) righteousness of God. You reject all such passages, and there are so very, very many, because you have adopted the false teaching of Total Depravity from the likes of Augustine and Calvin. It destroys your understanding of the salvation that God offers to those who believe in Him.
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@brightfame52, you are a human being composed of flesh, blood and bone. So are you "in the flesh"?
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Except Jesus Christ in His both Active and Passive obedience to God. And if we are elect, that Active and Passive obedience Christ performed as God Man, its imputed to their charge or account as if they performed it themselves. Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous
2 Cor 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Yes, I didn't say otherwise. My point is that everyone in the Bible about whom it describes as righteous is not made in the righteousness of God. Righteous and righteousness is so many times used in the relative sense of the righteousness of a man rather than in the absolute sense of the righteousness of God. Unless and until you understand that and can rightly assess the difference you will be monstrously confused about what is being taught. And anyone who subscribes to the total nonsense of total depravity will be monstrously confused about so much of what is being taught. So much so as to be nearly completely wrong in the whole subject of salvation.
Well yes, And does the Spirit of God dwell in you? If so, how do you know that?
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats not your concern, what the deal is, anyone who has the Spirit of God in them, isnt in the flesh, even though they are composed of flesh, blood and bones. So it just showed the cluelessness you have of Spiritual things when you made statement earlier:
It was a senseless remark in regards to spiritual matters.
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