"Works Salvation"

[Jim]

@Jim

You asked the wrong question! You should have asked:


And the biblical answer is "absoultely". For both believing and obeying (which being baptized in water is part of obeying) are the fruits of one that has been born of the Spirit.

If one is not born of water and Spirit, one will not be born again!! Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

I maintain that being born of water and spirit is being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ as Peter told the crowd in Acts 2:38. You disagree with me but you cannot present any scripture saying that I am wrong.

 

[Jim]

Paul is pointing out in Rom 5:18-19 that the benefit (being made righteous) of Christ's death is available to all those affected by the consequence of sin (condemnation). And that man is not UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous but there are conditions ("obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16) attached to being made righteous. Just as no one is UNconditionally made righteous, no one UNconditionally made a sinner. People are conditionally made sinners when they choose to sin (Rom 5:12).

Almost. All are unconditionally born righteous.

The passage refutes Calvinistic ideas of original sin and limited atonement.

Absolutely!!

AMEN and AMEN and AMEN!!!

 

[Doug Brents]

Practically, yes........... saved from sin and condemnation absoultely no way, that's another gospel pure and simple. Only the life and death of Jesus Christ secured eternal life for God's elect~a life that was promised before the world begun ~ and Christ sent into the world to secure this life for God's elect.

Of course it was Jesus' life, death, and resurrection that secured eternal life for the saints. But that gift was not applied to your life before the world began. That gift was not applied to your life before you were born. That gift was applied to your life when you fulfilled the requirements that God set for reception of His gift (repentance from sin (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7)).

Titus 1:2​

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”

Which means before we had done any good or evil!

Nope, it means that it was planned for, prepared for, and promised (not given, not received) before the world began.

Romans 9:11​

“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

Can you say, "taking a passage out of context"? Just wow!

2nd Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

Jesus Christ did not come into this world as a private person, but as the Head of the elect of God and we members of that chosen body, and all he did was imputed to us as though we did what he did perfectly.

Who are the members of that chosen body? 1 Pet 1:2 and Rom 8:29 tell us that the "elect", the saved, the saints were chosen because God KNEW who would accept Him before the world began. He set the ones who chose Him apart, because they had chosen Him. His choice was not arbitrary, or random.

Ephesians 2:5​

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”

God has never viewed his elect outside of Jesus Christ eternally and legally speaking!

Of course, and that is because of His foreknowledge of all that would occur from Creation to Judgement since before Creation. But that still does not change the fact that He requires us to qualify for His gift.
The widow still had to give her last piece of bread to the prophet, or her flour and oil would not have lasted the rest of the famine. The other widow still had to borrow all the jars she could (and if she had borrowed more, she would have poured more) oil to pay her late husband's debts.
Israel still had to march around Jericho, and take all the other cities in the Promised Land, or they wouldn't have conquered it (even though it belonged to them before they crossed the Jordan).
And we must repent, confess Jesus, and be baptized to receive the gift of Salvation from Him.

You folks who hold to a work gospel may one day be very disappointed, but that's not for me to say who that may be, those are only known to God.

I don't hold to a "work gospel". I hold to the grace of God, who promised that if I obey Him, He will save my unworthy, sinful, broken soul. I don't deserve it, but I trust that He will keep His promises.

 

[brightfame52]

If one is not born of water and Spirit, one will not be born again!! Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

Water and Spirit here are the same. Scripture uses them interchangeably in Salvation matters Isa 44:3

For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Jesus was saying he needed to be born of the water even the Spirit

The word and Jn 3:5 is the kai :

1. and, also, even, indeed, but

Jesus in Salvation gives water Jn 4:10-14

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life

That water is New Spiritual Life

You know He is speaking of the Spirit in the flow of context, starting in Vs 3,6,8

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Of course I already know you will reject this

 

[Jim]

Yes. Below is an article I have referred to and cited many times over the years that deals with the grammar used in Matthew's account of the great commission about the modal participles 'teach' and 'baptize' and how they relate to the main verb 'make'. The link gives quotes from commentators with various religious backgrounds about the modal participles.....but many of them still denied baptism being essential....

What Is the Purpose of Baptism? (Part 1) - Apologetics Press

Matthew 28:19-20 constitutes the “marching orders” for the apostles in promulgating the spread of Christianity in the first century. Embedded within this “Great Commission” is one of the key prerequisites to being saved: water baptism. The precise wording expressed by Jesus provides...

apologeticspress.org

That is an excellent presentation. I would only add that not only is the verb "make" the main verb, it is the only command given in the great commission. In the Greek, It doesn't say, "go and make...."; it says, "in going make..." So we see there even another example of the use of the participle.

 

[Jim]

Yes and its about their experience

It is about a whole lot more than that.

 

[brightfame52]

Almost. All are unconditionally born righteous.

lol where u get that from ?

 

[Jim]

lol where u get that from ?

God's word, something about which you know so little.

 

[brightfame52]

It is about a whole lot more than that.

No its not, the letter is written to the Romans Saints who were believers and had faith, he is establishing them in the faith. Rom 1:7-12

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me

 

[brightfame52]

God's word, something about which you know so little.

You didnt get it from the scripture of truth.

 

[Jim]

Water and Spirit here are the same. Scripture uses them interchangeably in Salvation matters Isa 44:3

For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Jesus was saying he needed to be born of the water even the Spirit

The word and Jn 3:5 is the kai :

1. and, also, even, indeed, but

Jesus in Salvation gives water Jn 4:10-14

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life

That water is New Spiritual Life

You know He is speaking of the Spirit in the flow of context, starting in Vs 3,6,8

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Of course I already know you will reject this

Act 8:36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

Is that water used interchangeably with salvation?

 

[JesusFan]

Of course it was Jesus' life, death, and resurrection that secured eternal life for the saints. But that gift was not applied to your life before the world began. That gift was not applied to your life before you were born. That gift was applied to your life when you fulfilled the requirements that God set for reception of His gift (repentance from sin (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7)).

Nope, it means that it was planned for, prepared for, and promised (not given, not received) before the world began.

Can you say, "taking a passage out of context"? Just wow!

Who are the members of that chosen body? 1 Pet 1:2 and Rom 8:29 tell us that the "elect", the saved, the saints were chosen because God KNEW who would accept Him before the world began. He set the ones who chose Him apart, because they had chosen Him. His choice was not arbitrary, or random.

Of course, and that is because of His foreknowledge of all that would occur from Creation to Judgement since before Creation. But that still does not change the fact that He requires us to qualify for His gift.
The widow still had to give her last piece of bread to the prophet, or her flour and oil would not have lasted the rest of the famine. The other widow still had to borrow all the jars she could (and if she had borrowed more, she would have poured more) oil to pay her late husband's debts.
Israel still had to march around Jericho, and take all the other cities in the Promised Land, or they wouldn't have conquered it (even though it belonged to them before they crossed the Jordan).
And we must repent, confess Jesus, and be baptized to receive the gift of Salvation from Him.

I don't hold to a "work gospel". I hold to the grace of God, who promised that if I obey Him, He will save my unworthy, sinful, broken soul. I don't deserve it, but I trust that He will keep His promises.

The Grace of the Gospel is while we were yet sinners, Jesus died in our stead, and the Father accepts us now just as we are period, and no need to work for our salvation

 

[Jim]

The Grace of the Gospel is while we were yet sinners, Jesus died in our stead, and the Father accepts us now just as we are period, and no need to work for our salvation

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

[atpollard]

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Who works in you to make it happen?
I missed that.

 

[Jim]

Who works in you to make it happen?
I missed that.

You sure did miss that and a whole lot more.

This from Albert Barnes:

For it is God that worketh in you - This is given as a reason for making an effort to be saved, or for working out our salvation. It is often thought to be the very reverse, and people often feel that if God works “in us to will and to do,” there can be no need of our making an effort, and that there would be no use in it. If God does all the work, say they, why should we not patiently sit still, and wait until He puts forth His power and accomplishes in us what He wills? It is of importance, therefore, to understand what this declaration of the apostle means, in order to see whether this objection is valid, or whether the fact that God “works in us” is to be regarded as a reason why we should make no effort. The word rendered “worketh” - ἐνεργῶν energōn - working - is from a verb meaning to work, to be active to produce effect - and is that from which we have derived the word “energetic.” The meaning is, that God “produces a certain effect in us;” he exerts such an influence over us as to lead to a certain result in our minds - to wit, “to will and to do.” Nothing is said of the mode in which this is done, and probably this cannot be understood by us here; compare Joh_3:8. In regard to the divine agency here referred to, however, certain things, though of a negative character, are clear:
(1) It is not God who acts for us. He leads us to “will and to do.” It is not said that he wills and does for us, and it cannot be. It is man that “wills and does” - though God so influences him that he does it.
(2) He does not compel or force us against our will. He leads us to will as well as to do. The will cannot be forced; and the meaning here must be that God exerts such an influence as to make us willing to obey Him; compare Psa_110:3.
(3) It is not a physical force, but it must be a moral influence. A physical power cannot act on the will. You may chain a man, incarcerate him in the deepest dungeon, starve him, scourge him, apply red-hot pincers to his flesh, or place on him the thumb-screw, but the will is still free. You cannot bend that or control it, or make him believe otherwise than as he chooses to believe. The declaration here, therefore, cannot mean that God compels us, or that we are anything else but free agents still, though He “works in us to will and to do.” It must mean merely that he exerts such an influence as to secure this result.

 

[Jim]

The Grace of the Gospel is while we were yet sinners, Jesus died in our stead, and the Father accepts us now just as we are period, and no need to work for our salvation

You have to believe in God. Jesus said that is work (John 6:29).

 

[Doug Brents]

The Grace of the Gospel is while we were yet sinners, Jesus died in our stead, and the Father accepts us now just as we are period, and no need to work for our salvation

I agree, as far as it goes.
Let me ask you two questions:
Who knocked the walls of Jericho down?
Would the walls have still been knocked down if Israel hadn't walked around the walls as instructed?

 

[brightfame52]

Act 8:36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

Okay, no problem. As long as he had already believed, and if he did, he was already born of the Spirit. Water baptism is a act of obedience to the saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Would the walls have still been knocked down if Israel hadn't walked around the walls as instructed?

lol,, what does that have to do with eternal salvation ?

 

[atpollard]

You sure did miss that and a whole lot more.

"Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" - Isaiah 53:1
"However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, 'LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?'" - Romans 10:16

I know whose report I will believe, God rather than man.

"So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it." - Romans 9:16 [NLT]